Do we over analyse horses now

[Lois Lame]

Companies read forums to see where there is a market to produce something.

I was at a camp last year and there was a rep from a well-known company with a weighbridge and free samples. We all queued up, me included because I wanted to know what my horse weighed.
Almost every horse was overweight, and every case she was talking them into feeding MORE. It was obscene. Low cal balancers, light chop, 2-3x a day. Constant forage. The poor novice owners were lapping it up.

She weighed mine and said well, he looks just about right. What do you feed him currently?
When I said ‘just grass’ her eyes lit up and she started down the ‘but he needs a balancer’ route. I said I didn’t use them, thanked her kindly for her time and went to go. Well she wouldn’t let it go - did I understand that I was depriving my horse of essential nutrients?? Could I myself survive on lettuce only?? So I’m afraid I let her have it.
a) the horse is not human.
b) he is an ideal weight and condition, and has a shiny coat and plenty of energy.
c) he has a field lick.

She pounced on this with ‘oh but how can you know with a lick that they’re getting enough!?’ with a triumphant grin.

‘See point B’ was my answer.

Charlatans.

This also deserved a
I love it.

 

[ycbm]

Patterdale I'm trying to get a grip on knowing whether you have a happy healthy horse, in the context of knowing how stoic horses are. Have you ever had a healthy happy horse who flicked its ears back or twitched its head as you put the saddle on or did up the girth, or would that rule out describing the horse as happy and healthy for you?
.

 

[Goldenstar]

A well looking horse certainly can be very Ill .

 

[Patterdale]

Patterdale I'm trying to get a grip on knowing whether you have a happy healthy horse, in the context of knowing how stoic horses are. Have you ever had a healthy happy horse who flicked its ears back or twitched its head as you put the saddle on or did up the girth, or would that rule out describing the horse as happy and healthy for you?
.

My last horse who got girthy was an Irish import who’d had a stressful few weeks travelling over, moving to a dealer’s yard then moving to me 2 weeks later, all long journeys and home moves.
He was bought unseen but I’d had a video call including seeing him girthed up and he was fine. 2-3 weeks after he arrived he started being girthy and bucking.
Classic ulcers which I couldn’t really blame him for. He had a month omeprazole which cured it. He’s lived out in a happy herd since and been fine.

My horses are not perfect!! Currently in the field I have:
Cushings pony persistent slightly weepy eye which we’re trying to get to the bottom of. Local vets say just put orbenin in when it’s bad, I want the tear ducts flushing but they don’t offer this. Other vets have been unwilling as she’s already under a vet, but I’ve hopefully found a solution now

Youngster with swelling on his tendon sheath. Not hot and not lame, had it 2-3 months now. It’s probably some injury he’s given himself. I have considered getting it scanned but there’s no point really as it won’t change my management, he’d still just be turned out. So I’ll just keep keeping an eye.

Pony with bruised foot after having a stone wedged in it. He’s also just out.

I think that’s it at the moment. In all 3 of those situations I think many people would have spent £££££ and box rested them. Which I think would have caused more issues.
I’m not saying I do it perfectly, I’m sure I make lots of mistakes.
But yes, they are all in excellent bodily condition, and all happy living out together. People genuinely often ask what I feed them as they do look good.
I haven’t said anywhere that no horse ever should have a balancer, or that they never have a positive impact. But a) the name is stupid as they don’t balance anything, and
b) they have been a large contributor to the equine obesity crisis. They have allowed feed companies to perpetuate the myth that all horses must be fed, even fat ones, which is ludicrous but has somehow caught on.

ETA the exception that proves the rule is my cushings pony who the only one that gets fed, her cushings makes her thin not fat, so she gets fed up like a racehorse.
She has whatever crap she will eat, she’ll only eat 1-2 bags of something before she goes off it. She’s a flipping nightmare so all the usual rules go out the window.
She’s currently favouring mixes so she’s on topline conditioning mix, micronised linseed and sugar beet with Prascend given on a wooden spoonful of molasses.
She has a medical condition which makes her lose weight and be a fussy f***er, so I have to adjust my ideas accordingly, something any sensible person is always willing to do.

But I won’t box rest my fat legged youngster!

 

[Patterdale]

A well looking horse certainly can be very Ill .

Yes a horse can look well and not be right. But if a horse looks well, FEELS well and behaves well, it’s right.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes a horse can look well and not be right. But if a horse looks well, FEELS well and behaves well, it’s right.

Honestly that’s not so , it’s the same with people as well .

 

[Patterdale]

So what should we do with all these horses who look well, behave well, and feel well? Monthly lameness work ups?

I really don’t get it. A horse who is in good condition, happy in his work, behaving normally and plenty of energy……you say still might not be ok? Yes I mean I can’t disagree, no one has x-ray eyes. But if it had an issue that was actually bothering it, it would show in some way.

Im not sure of the point you’re trying to make.

 

[TheMule]

They don’t absorb the lick through their tongue. That’s not how digestion works.
That whole paragraph of yours is proving the whole point of this thread.
You present an opinion as fact ‘you’d be better off not feeding the lick.’
You follow it on with an incorrect statement, again given as fact. Then you reference your evidence, namely ‘science.’
You’re wrong, but rather than offer this as your opinion, you give it confidently as fact.

For the second paragraph - exactly how many very healthy horses have you personally had who were ‘riddled’ with ulcers and had worm counts in the tens of thousands? And how did you find this out.
FWIW, if I had a perfectly happy and healthy horse, who was in good condition with normal energy levels and mental faculties, who I somehow learned had ulcers…? It could keep them. As clearly not bothering the horse.

I’m just wondering why you have had multiple healthy, happy horses scoped for ulcers


It won’t let me type below the next quote, but again, if the horse was in good condition, sound and happy, how and why did you find out it had a serious deficiency?

Great post, thank you!

 

[little_critter]

Yes I over analyse, at the moment it’s because I’m struggling with long term lameness in my horse and it puts me on high alert.
Sometimes I wish I could be one of those people who can work a slightly lame horse and not notice / not care.
Unfortunately doing so makes me feel awful. It’s a particular problem at the moment because my vet has said that without work my horse will deteriorate further.
I was stunned when my vet commented that half of the horses competing at the local (affiliated) competition centre would look similar to my boy
This was after it had been noted he had shown mild lameness in both fronts on a circle.

My plan is to hack as much as possible and avoid circles, so we can get the work in and hopefully avoid the movements which cause discomfort.

 

[Indy]

I suppose one person's over analysis is another person's due diligence and people will do what they feel works best for the horse in front of them

In the main my way of keeping horses is similar to Patterdale but that's down to environmental factors allowing me to keep my horses as I want and I don't have to be dictated to by livery yard rules. It also doesn't mean I haven't gone into over analytical mode when something goes wrong.

 

[I'm Dun]

They don’t absorb the lick through their tongue. That’s not how digestion works.
That whole paragraph of yours is proving the whole point of this thread.
You present an opinion as fact ‘you’d be better off not feeding the lick.’
You follow it on with an incorrect statement, again given as fact. Then you reference your evidence, namely ‘science.’
You’re wrong, but rather than offer this as your opinion, you give it confidently as fact.

[/QUOTE]

It IS fact. Heres the first "science" I found that proves horses make bad food choices . Theres loads more, often much more specific but I refuse to spend my day off trawling journal articles I'm afraid

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260094441_Dietary_experience_modifies_horses'_feeding_behavior_and_selection_patterns_of_3_macronutrient_rich_diets

There is a ton of information out there is you want to read it.

For the second paragraph - exactly how many very healthy horses have you personally had who were ‘riddled’ with ulcers and had worm counts in the tens of thousands? And how did you find this out.
FWIW, if I had a perfectly happy and healthy horse, who was in good condition with normal energy levels and mental faculties, who I somehow learned had ulcers…? It could keep them. As clearly not bothering the horse.

I’m just wondering why you have had multiple healthy, happy horses scoped for ulcers

I used to buy cheap projects, and I also am an idiot and loan horses out, or used to.

The fact you wouldn't treat a horse for ulcers is for me, the opposite of good horsemanship. Horses are stoic creatures and put up with all sorts of pain and discomfort. Its their very nature as prey animals to do that. Doesnt mean it doesn't hurt. I've had stomach and duodenal ulcers, they hurt like hell. I doubt anyone would have known that by looking at me at work. I wouldn't want an animal to suffer that constant pain though under any circumstances.

Its a shame, but all you are doing is proving that for some reason you don't want to or cant engage with new information. Science is moving quickly, we learn new things all the time. By refusing to acknowledge that, you become the opposite of what you want to be. Good horsemen/women know horses and know how to keep them well, but they don't dismiss new things as "nonsense". The good ones evaluate them from the perspective of their current knowledge and take the information on board.

 

[Goldenstar]

So what should we do with all these horses who look well, behave well, and feel well? Monthly lameness work ups?

I really don’t get it. A horse who is in good condition, happy in his work, behaving normally and plenty of energy……you say still might not be ok? Yes I mean I can’t disagree, no one has x-ray eyes. But if it had an issue that was actually bothering it, it would show in some way.

Im not sure of the point you’re trying to make.

I am simply think that your point is nonsense to equate looking and feeling good to us with absence of illness .
Your also wrong on forage apart from dust and mould it’s impossible to judge where hay is at by looking at it it’s very deceptive and you certainly can’t tell what it’s vit and mineral levels are or it energy or its fibre level .
That why analysing forage matters so much for horse that are in high performance situations .

 

[KittenInTheTree]

I looked up the field licks mentioned earlier in this thread, but they don't list the ingredients used.

 

[Ambers Echo]

So what should we do with all these horses who look well, behave well, and feel well? Monthly lameness work ups?

I really don’t get it. A horse who is in good condition, happy in his work, behaving normally and plenty of energy……you say still might not be ok? Yes I mean I can’t disagree, no one has x-ray eyes. But if it had an issue that was actually bothering it, it would show in some way.

FWIW, if I had a perfectly happy and healthy horse, who was in good condition with normal energy levels and mental faculties, who I somehow learned had ulcers…? It could keep them. As clearly not bothering the horse.

Horses are stoic. They hide pain exceptionally well. I took Lottie for a performance work-up last July because she started refusing. Not often but after the 3rd ride in a row where she had refused 1 or 2, I took her to the vet. Vet identified that her hocks were bothering her but the real reason she refused was that her back was going into spasm on the approach and she threw in the towel when that happened. Her hocks had probably been bothering her for MONTHS. There was no other outward sign. Not lame, DC ALL season both SJ and eventing including right up to the refusals, shiny, happy, good weight. Now I take her for a vet check every 6 months to make sure she does not have to down tools before I recognise an issue.

There is recognition of the value of a more hands off approach, then there is misty eyed veneration of the 'good old days' in which saddles hurt, ulcers weren't recognised and horses just had to put up with it.

Plus the problem is not 'over-analysis', it is the fact that there are a lot more horse owners without a horsey background. Many of those people become highly thoughtful, reflective and skilled horse-people, - but some just can't see the wood for the trees and are confused by the huge excess of information, and the highly variable quality of that information.

Not sure what the answer is, but decising that is was all better in the old days is lazy thinking, complacent nonsense, in my view.

 

[Patterdale]

Horses are stoic. They hide pain exceptionally well. I took Lottie for a performance work-up last July because she started refusing. Not often but after the 3rd ride in a row where she had refused 1 or 2, I took her to the vet. Vet identified that her hocks were bothering her but the real reason she refused was that her back was going into spasm on the approach and she threw in the towel when that happened. Her hocks had probably been bothering her for MONTHS. There was no other outward sign. Not lame, DC ALL season both SJ and eventing including right up to the refusals, shiny, happy, good weight. Now I take her for a vet check every 6 months to make sure she does not have to down tools before I recognise an issue.

There is recognition of the value of a more hands off approach, then there is misty eyed veneration of the 'good old days' in which saddles hurt, ulcers weren't recognised and horses just had to put up with it.

Plus the problem is not 'over-analysis', it is the fact that there are a lot more horse owners without a horsey background. Many of those people become highly thoughtful, reflective and skilled horse-people, - but some just can't see the wood for the trees and are confused by the huge excess of information, and the highly variable quality of that information.

Not sure what the answer is, but decising that is was all better in the old days is lazy thinking, complacent nonsense, in my view.

But you took her because she was refusing! So NOT in good condition, normal behaviour and happy and willing in work.
I would have done the same!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes, but she had been in pain months before that. She tolerated the hock pain. But stopped when compensatory movment patterns made her back spasm. It just highlighted for me how stoic and geneorus horses can be. And that appearances can be deceptive.

 

[Patterdale]

Yes, but she had been in pain months before that. She tolerated the hock pain. But stopped when compensatory movment patterns made her back spasm. It just highlighted for me how stoic and geneorus horses can be. And that appearances can be deceptive.

Yes but what else can you do but react to the signs you see?
Most horses out there who look fine, feel fine and are happy….are fine.
I can’t think of any answer other than to react to issues as they arise. I certainly wouldn’t start giving monthly work ups to every happy horse based on the tiny chance that there might be a hidden issue.

 

[Goldenstar]

Saying just because a horse appears fine but has ulcers it can keep them is an appalling attitude IMO .
I have had such a horse he was in fact used at event on ulcer awareness to illustrate this point .
Looked perfect was working well with loads of energy but had ulcers .

Horses tolerate pain if we can alleviate it then we ought to .

 

[Ellibelli]

Saying just because a horse appears fine but has ulcers it can keep them is an appalling attitude IMO .
I have had such a horse he was in fact used at event on ulcer awareness to illustrate this point .
Looked perfect was working well with loads of energy but had ulcers .

Horses tolerate pain if we can alleviate it then we ought to .

This all the way.

Patterdale if you had a horse that looked well, ate well, performed well but pooed every time someone got on his back what would you do? This was one of my horses and i decided (or overanalysed) and took him for a scope - he had grade 4 glandular and non-glandular ulcers. After being treated the pooing stopped. I (over) analysed that he was worried enough about being ridden and the pain it caused him that he pooed at the thought of work but was stoic enough to just get on with his job

 

[Patterdale]

Saying just because a horse appears fine but has ulcers it can keep them is an appalling attitude IMO .
I have had such a horse he was in fact used at event on ulcer awareness to illustrate this point .
Looked perfect was working well with loads of energy but had ulcers .

Horses tolerate pain if we can alleviate it then we ought to .

You’ve taken what I’ve said completely out of context here. Also I have stated in other posts that I HAVE treated for ulcers.

The point is that we don’t know how many clinically well horses have ulcers. We can’t scope every horse, but I honestly suspect that if we did we would find many with ulcers who are asymptomatic. We have NO idea of the clinical significance of many of these ‘new’ findings in horses.

So no, if I had a completely clinically well horse, I would not treat it for ulcers. Because how would I ever know it had them?

It’s like the current mania for x-raying with every vetting. Lots of clinically sound horses are found to have mild changes or bone chips. These issues aren’t bothering them. If they were, there’d be SOME sign. So would you start invasive treatments which could trigger a cascade of subsequent issues? I certainly wouldn’t.

I prefer to look at the horse in front of me. So yes, in answer to a previous poster, if I had a sound horse showing a stress response every time it got tacked up or mounted, yes my first line would probably be a course of omeprazole (because I know my tack fits). Omeprazole is safe and I’m happy to hand it out like sweeties when needed.

What I wouldn’t do is put it through the trauma of a scoping.

Please do not take my posts out of context to make me out to be a narrow minded idiot who lets my horses suffer. I don’t. I think they have a pretty great life to be honest.

 

[IrishMilo]

I'm not someone who worries about my horses. They all get the same feed: ad-lib hay, alfalfa pellets (which I love for their high protein and fibre, low starch make up) and a decent pour of salt in each feed. If they're skinny I add in linseed.

I don't buy into branding. Mixes and pelleted balancers are full of unhealthy sh*t. I feed straights so I know exactly what they're getting and how it might affect them.

Powdered vit/min supplements are helpful to correct deficiencies - my multi-vit makes all the difference to me, why wouldn't it do the same for my horse?

I own ONE rug. If it's cold (like, genuinely cold, not a bit breezy) it goes on. If not, well they're horses and they can be naked and feel the dirt on them as they should.

Where I refuse to be ignorant is fixing/diagnosing issues. Horse looks stiff/unlevel/can't bend one way? Yeah, it'll be going for a full performance work up. The absolute least we owe our horses is to not be ignorant to their pain.

What really annoys me is when people say 'Well go looking and you'll find' - urm, yes, that's the exact point. Find the issue and best solution for it to make sure the horse isn't in discomfort. And if you can't do that for the love of god just do the right thing and put it down.

 

[ycbm]

This all the way.

Patterdale if you had a horse that looked well, ate well, performed well but pooed every time someone got on his back what would you do? This was one of my horses and i decided (or overanalysed) and took him for a scope - he had grade 4 glandular and non-glandular ulcers. After being treated the pooing stopped. I (over) analysed that he was worried enough about being ridden and the pain it caused him that he pooed at the thought of work but was stoic enough to just get on with his job

I added pooing when ridden to my warning signs list last year. I've realised that consistently pooing early in a work session is an orange warning, pooing every ten minutes is a red warning and an increase from a small number to a higher number is a klaxon sounding.
.

 

[Esyllt]

I'm guilty of over analysing recently after coming from livery that had monoculture dairy cow grass, and the land we have inherited needing lots of restoration and reclaiming work, and having no grass left after winter, I read waaay too deeply and went down a rabbit hole of what exactly varied forage and herbage is, and as a consequence now have a 100L bin full of mixed herbs to add to their meadow grass mix chaff, and a number on my credit card that I'm ashamed to admit I spent on leaves!!! I'm blaming the weather and the mud for inducing that crisis of overthinking

 

[moosea]

In those days an 8 yr old was considered "aged"....... and horses were put down if they couldn't work.

In fairness I think most 8 year old in those days had done more work than most 18 year old have done these days.

I think the amount of people who have horses as pets, and non ridden, these days is huge.

I think there is a massive amount of resources available to owners these days, but most of them couldn't make up straight feeds or recognise a good hoof.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I added pooing when ridden to my warning signs list last year. I've realised that consistently pooing early in a work session is an orange warning, pooing every ten minutes is a red warning and an increase from a small number to a higher number is a klaxon sounding.
.

For several months prior to the culmination of Sand Colic, Dave poo'd when tacked up. Now the sand is gone he doesn't.
He looked fine, behaved well, perhaps a little sluggish ridden.

 

[4Hoofed]

I added pooing when ridden to my warning signs list last year. I've realised that consistently pooing early in a work session is an orange warning, pooing every ten minutes is a red warning and an increase from a small number to a higher number is a klaxon sounding.
.

Hmm would you ever say that if it’s ever a symptom for like habitual poo? my boy has an interesting quirk out hacking, where we always canter he stops on the path in and poos. Needs it or not I feel like he really has to push sometimes… I’ve always thought he was relieving the load for speed we hack too different directions to the track so sometimes we are 15-30 mins in or could be in hour and a half in… apart from that he’s got no noticeable poo habits and doesn’t do it in the school..

Casually here over analysing on a post about over analysing I’ve just never thought of pooping as a symptom for ulcers, more kind of if they are pooing, good dropping regularly, with no “visitors”, no sloppies, and without straining then life is good!

 

[ycbm]

Poo before canter = excitement I think

 

[4Hoofed]

Poo before canter = excitement I think

I mean that’s my instinct.. he’s just trying to resurface the bridle path it’s one of those things though where it can lure you in to over analysis of oh I wonder! I try not to go down too many rabbit holes!

 

[Elno]

I’ve no idea what she feeds, but forage is enough.

Horses DO NOT NEED balancers. Good forage provides all the ‘vitamins and minerals’ they need. It’s what they’re evolved to eat.

I would say that the marketing ploy of ‘balancers’ (inverted commas because it’s a stupid name, they don’t balance anything) is one of the major contributors towards equine obesity in the UK.

This, this, this 100 times over!

I was extremely surprised when I learned that one of the authors of NRC 2007 only fed her horses forage in various forms and a saltlick. That's it. No balancers, no vit/mins, nothing more but forage and salt, and her horses were in their 20s thriving.

On the other hand we have equine nutritionists with phDs shoving balancers, aminoacids and plasma (!?) supplements and what not down our throats. No wonder people get confused.

(btw, I'm not saying that you shouldn't supplement with minerals like selenium, copper etc if you know by analyzing your forage that it is lacking, but I think we seriously tend to overdo it)