Docking ban, Desparate news for working dogs in Scotland!

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How would you know what a puppy does or doesn't notice? That is a bit presumptuous. It all boils down to fashion. I look forward to being proved wrong, but I have yet to see any evidence of long-term damage to a dog's tail because it isn't docked. Obviously there is the odd one, and the tails of Great Danes often split as they are very spindly - should be dock all dogs just to be on the safe side? Let's mutilate all the newborn puppies.

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Here is a quote taken from a doctorate on the feeling of pain in newborn puppies...
"Incomplete development of the nervous system at the time of birth and the very high chronaxie value in connection with the fact that the animal is not able to react effectively to pain, gives us every reason to believe that the actual feeling of pain is very low in the new-born of this group of mammals (dogs). In other words, at this age and biological condition, it would have no absolute meaning to talk about pain".
A lot of research has been done on this in the past and it is FACT that they have an inability to feel pain to a great extent in the first few days of life.

Please refer to the council of docked breeds website where there is plenty of evidence of tail damage. www.cdb.org

Petty statements saying should we dock ALL puppies are giving your arguement ZERO strength and credibility. My labradors are not docked as there is no need for them to be, however my springers are as I would much rather prevent them from having an otherwise unneccessary injury.

Do you believe that all preventative measures are cruel? Speying bitches is actually very complex surgery but is routinely done to prevent unwanted pregnancies and pyometra and reduce the chances of mammary tumours. Is this also cruel?
 
I don't think we are ever going to agree on this. I think it is barbaric, arrogant and unnecessary to dock, you think it is ok if it stops a dog getting thorns in its tail. Hence my shaving post - Spaniels are hairy all over, not just on their tails...
 
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Now imagine that tail in a thick covert full of brambles and blackthorn, for a start finding a blackthorn in a spaniels tail would be hard work, especially if you didn't know it was there and remember blackthorn poisening is deadly.

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SM - in my very first post on this thread I wrote:
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My little spaniel has a long undocked tail. She works pretty much every day, running around in our woods flushing out birds and wildlife and we have a tonne of brambles and dense undergrowth.

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She works in deep undergrowth every day - no injuries to date.
 
The person i got my jack russell docked them himself and did their dew claws when the were only a few days old. Apparently not one of them made a sound and didnt appear to really notice. Just think what little lambs must feel when they have a band put round thier tail so it dies and falls off. Dog docking is a much better way.
 
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Just think what little lambs must feel when they have a band put round thier tail so it dies and falls off. Dog docking is a much better way.

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If the lambs are lucky enough to get banded...there are other methods used.
 
That is depressing - a whole website dedicated to chopping bits off dogs! I am not convinced that docking is necessary, and that the injuries sustained in undocked dogs are very few and far between. We shall see...
 
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That is depressing - a whole website dedicated to chopping bits off dogs! I am not convinced that docking is necessary, and that the injuries sustained in undocked dogs are very few and far between. We shall see...

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You just refuse to believe it, I don't think animal welfare is your first concern.
 
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That is depressing - a whole website dedicated to chopping bits off dogs! I am not convinced that docking is necessary, and that the injuries sustained in undocked dogs are very few and far between. We shall see...

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You just refuse to believe it, I don't think animal welfare is your first concern.

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I have to agree with severnmiles.

Sooty - you don't seem to have a valid arguement, it just appears as 'I don't like it, so you shouldn't do it'. My spaniels' welfare is a priority to me...that is why they are docked. You didn't reply to my comment on routine speying, is that also barbaric?
 
Spaying is done to prevent overpopulation - there are far too many unwanted animals and most animal rescue centres are heaving with unwanted animals, so why make more? Its responsible as some people cannot ensure that their animals will never come into contact with an unspayed animal. Unfortunately a lot of people are not responsible and will dump or even kill unwanted animals.
 
Im sorry to say it but I work in a vets and ALL the vets that I work with including the bosses REFUSE to dock tails now because it is barbarick (SP), cruel and there is no need to, dogs were born with tails for a reason, I am pro hunting shooting and all game sports and I would much rather have a spaniel, JRT, or any other breed with a tail out working, as they use it to help them balence. I HATE people/ breeders who have their puppies tails docked for the looks, or cause all the other dogs in the show ring have their tails docked, im sorry but that is JUST WRONG.
 
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Im sorry to say it but I work in a vets and ALL the vets that I work with including the bosses REFUSE to dock tails now because it is barbarick (SP), cruel and there is no need to, dogs were born with tails for a reason, I am pro hunting shooting and all game sports and I would much rather have a spaniel, JRT, or any other breed with a tail out working, as they use it to help them balence. I HATE people/ breeders who have their puppies tails docked for the looks, or cause all the other dogs in the show ring have their tails docked, im sorry but that is JUST WRONG.

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There are plenty of vets in favour of docking...
www.vets4docking.org.uk
 
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Spaying is done to prevent overpopulation - there are far too many unwanted animals and most animal rescue centres are heaving with unwanted animals, so why make more? Its responsible as some people cannot ensure that their animals will never come into contact with an unspayed animal. Unfortunately a lot of people are not responsible and will dump or even kill unwanted animals.

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Yes but docking dogs is done for a reason too. 6 to one, half a dozen to the other!
 
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Spaying is done to prevent overpopulation - there are far too many unwanted animals and most animal rescue centres are heaving with unwanted animals, so why make more? Its responsible as some people cannot ensure that their animals will never come into contact with an unspayed animal. Unfortunately a lot of people are not responsible and will dump or even kill unwanted animals.

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Overpopulation is NOT the only reason why speying is carried out. Overpopulation can be dealt with by owners acting responsibly and keeping their bitches away from dogs when they are in season! We have a mixed kennels and have never had a accidental mating...its all down to management.

I nearly lost a bitch to pyometra a few years ago...i will now routinely spey any bitches from which I don't intend to keep a puppy.
 
I didn't realise you were serious about the speying question as it was so ludicrous -how are the two comparable? One is a responsible action, one is an act of vanity hung on a lame old 'working dog' excuse. Did you know docking was introduced as a way of identifying working dogs for tax purposes, not as an 'animal welfare' issue?
 
oh nd BTW spaying in my oppinion is a neccsity (SP) as jj4y said there is always the chance that ur bitch could get a pyometra wich she could die from, so u should put ur bitch 4 a short operation wen is healthey and has a good chance of recovery, rather than when she is very poorly with a pyo that she could then die by having to be put under ga.
 
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I didn't realise you were serious about the speying question as it was so ludicrous -how are the two comparable? One is a responsible action, one is an act of vanity hung on a lame old 'working dog' excuse. Did you know docking was introduced as a way of identifying working dogs for tax purposes, not as an 'animal welfare' issue?

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Actually the first evidence of docking was by the romans as they believed that rabies was carried in the dog's tail, please ensure your facts are right before quoting them.

I can assure you that the docking of true working dogs has nothing to do with vanity...I would quite happily own an undocked springer as a PET but not as a working dog. I can't comment on the docking of non- undog breeds as I don't have any experience of them and I don't condone docking for cosmetic reasons.

Actually I think speying and docking can be compared, except that IMO speying will cause the dog more discomfort as the adult dog has the fully developed ability to feel pain, compared to a newborn puppy.
 
I am so glad that I went ahead & posted this topic. It just goes to show there are differences between pets & working dogs of the same breed.
I only condone docking of working animals. Anyone who gets a splinter knows how painful it can become if not removed. If left in it quickly becomes hot & swollen & eventually infected. This is bad enough if it’s just an accidental brush against wood or thorn, but I’m sure you will appreciate how much more it hurts when the splinter is obtained with any force. Many people will say, "My dog goes through bushes & never seems to suffer any ill effect!" That may well be so, but when a spaniel is working cover it does not just “brush” against the cover. Its tail is constantly thrashing from side to side at incredible speed & force, which can not only incur thorns etc, but also scratching & tearing of the skin. Also these dogs are not just out for a short period of time, they are usually working intensely throughout the day. Yes their noses do get scratched & yes they do pick up thorns in their coats on other parts of their body. But as I have stated before it is the movement of their tails that makes them more prone to injury. Injury is not only obtained from puncture wounds such as thorns etc, When a spaniel works through bracken, a long tail can also becomes injured & split due to the constant tail thrashing against the bracken. Constant injury can lead to infection throughout the rest of the body.
We do not simply chop off the whole tail in a “barbaric way”, leaving them with nothing. Only part of the tail is removed in a bid to prevent any unnecessary injury. If performed at young age this is a minor procedure, however the amputation of an injured full tail is a major operation with a longer recovery time, & and cannot always be guaranteed a success. Correctly performed tail docking of puppies can no way be compared to the mutilation of a baby.
It is possible however when reading through this thread to see how media from both sides has influenced some people. I do ask that if any one feels strongly enough about the welfare of these dogs, that they acquaint themselves with the real facts & not just a selected collection of data.
Diane
 
I've been following this thread with interest and also a certain amount of disbelief.

Firstly it is always interesting to read posts (usually voiced very strongly) by folk who have no experience of the subject in question - in this instance actually working gundogs in a shoot environment.

TBH I don't think I've laughed this much in years at some of the utter garbage that's been trotted out so far so cheers folks.

Secondly and much more worryingly is the fact that folk on this thread have admitted to carrying out (or their friends carrying out) an activity which it is illegal for a layperson to do - namely the docking of puppies tails.

This forum is in the public domain and absolutely ANYBODY could be reading these admissions at this very minute!
 
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TBH I don't think I've laughed this much in years at some of the utter garbage that's been trotted out so far so cheers folks.


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I'm sat here in stitches too!
 
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I can't see where anyone has admitted anything that is evidence enough to bring prosectution, learn the law inside out
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I am well aware of the law and wasn't talking about prosecution but this is just another example of the ignorance that I am refering to.

My concern is that folk might end up with a dirty great bunch of animal rights activists on their case and to be perfectly honest, prosecution would probably be the preferable option out of the two.
 
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So are you saying it is ok for them to dock their own dogs as long as they keep quiet about it?

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No...you're reading into things. No RESPECTABLE breeders of working gundogs would attempt to dock the tails of their own pups
 
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So are you saying it is ok for them to dock their own dogs as long as they keep quiet about it?

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Soots have you watched the video on that website? Given the fact we can foal our own mares, inject our own dogs, band our own pigs and lambs do you think joe public could do the job shown?
 
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No...you're reading into things. No RESPECTABLE breeders of working gundogs would attempt to dock the tails of their own pups

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Hmm... is my only comment on that one...
 
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My concern is that folk might end up with a dirty great bunch of animal rights activists on their case and to be perfectly.

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Last time they came down our way they ran back to England with their tail between their legs...
 
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