Draw reins... Who uses them and why?

[Queenbee]

Ha ha, I'd rather be trying to get a horse to relax than having to constantly nag it to go forward lol! I look back on my times as a teenager with great fondness... Cantering any bit of track I could, going off with my friend with a picnic on my back for the day, coming home to find a search party out for us because we were so long! Galloping downhill overtaking slower competitors on xc comps! Jiggly ponies and a pony that loved his xc so much u almost couldn't get him through the start gate as he was so excited he just kept rearing (only time he would rear) but boy oh boy when you did get him through nothing stopped him I spent the entirety of my youth with a grin slapped permanently on my face... That's fizzy ponies for you lol

 

[lula]

You make a good point PR. I have been teaching this lady for a number of years and have failed to get her riding in such a way that the horses go forwards for her. I have been concentrating on the technical aspects of her riding and her position etc, but had not even thought about her energy levels. You are right. When I think about it, she generally moves very slowly with low energy. I will try getting her to gee herself up and see what effect it has.

the energy point would be interesting to put to the test actually.

Without seeing that proven though what you say about your client's physical stiffness blocking the horse from going forward Wagtail makes perfect logical sense to me .

Elaborating on that, it is interesting how people's individual physiological body issues or riding position can hinder or encourage a horse's action or way of going under them.

i used to use draw reins when i was young, didn't know any better and was impatient for results. All the reasons NOT to use them.

In people that actually know what they're doing with them, draw reins have their place, with those that dont, and here i include my younger self in this, its as that old saying goes; 'like putting a razor blade in the hands of a monkey'

 

[TheSylv007]

I used them for daily for over a week recently on a young dressage horse who had decided to use his strength and agility to evade my instructions. He had reached a stage when his maturity and education meant that he needed to do a lot more transitions between and within the pace and a lot more changes of direction. He was using a faked fear of some things which had been around the arena for a full year to justify violent spooking, and if restricted from spooking, to rear and buck.

For safety, I put them on so that I could stop him doing that. As long as he worked normally, they were not in contact. If he spooked I took up contact in a normal head position. If he bucked or reared, I put him overbent for my safety, where he could do neither with any power. On one day, for a few minutes, when he was particularly objectionable I put him in hyperflexion.

After a few days I was able to ride with them clipped to the saddle, out of use, for the entire session except a few minutes when he decided to try his luck. After less than two weeks I left them off altogether and don't expect to ever have to use them again.

Horses are not saints, especially not the highly bred competition parentage ones. This horse had been completely, gently, desensitised to everything he had decided to make a fuss about. This was "teenage boy" tantrums and the draw reins were a quick and fair way of keeping me safe while letting him know what his priorities needed to be. He was, and remains, exceptionally affectionate to handle and bears no grudges

Used to stop a horse putting his head UP, they are fine and better than a martingale which turns the neck upside down.

Used to pull the head DOWN, my opinion is this should only be done for a short time, just to educate those horses who seem to have no idea that they are even capable of working that way Many ex racers are like this, especially when trying to teach them a balanced canter transition. It's a much better option than getting a neck in your face

Used for rider safety, I have no issues.

Used as a shortcut to a "correct" outline - I don't think it will get you there, it will just get you a bad approximation with stuff to be undone later on.

I am though, amazed by the number of people who think draw reins are a work of the devil while being quite happy to work their horses in fixed side reins. That doesn't stack up for me.

This for me

 

[Queenbee]

What PR says is pretty much what I was trying to get at... Temperament of rider... Those with lots of energy vs those who are calm. If your scared your horse pick up on it, if ur confident they pick up on it... It's no different... You have a direct connection with your horse and they feel your energy, what it's saying and react accordingly. If I every feel like in causing a horse to fizz nowadays.... I tense every single muscle possible in my body and hold, focusing on squeezing even harder... Then I let it all go... Completely relaxes me and the horse suddenly throws off its demon horns too.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes, I really, really, really do not struggle for days or weeks with a horse throwing its head up in a canter transition. I do not use draw reins when riding because I can do far more to train a horse without them. It is quite easy to train a horse not to throw its head up in the canter transition within a couple of ridden sessions and correct timing/release of the half halt.

This is not my experience Wagtail.

My 30+ years of training horses has mostly been with other people's cheap and often dangerous castoffs including a number of ex racers. Amongst that lot there were several who I could not cure of head chucking in a couple of sessions.

From what you write, you are simply head and shoulders in your ability to retrain bad horses than any other user on this forum and I would be forced to bow to your superior abilities.

For the rest of us, the occasional use of draw reins is of benefit both to us and to the horse.

I never use side reins ridden because there is no need for them. However, when a horse is lunged, it does not have the benefit of the riders hands. My process of retraining an ex racer is to lunge firstly in the pessoa to strengthen the top line, and then to introduce ridden work and occasional lunging in side reins, but not until the horse has learned to go correctly under saddle. I can usually have an off the track horse going reasonably correctly within the first 15 minutes of ridden schooling. Correct transitions take more time as the horse has to build up the strength to execute them smoothly and correctly, but I think that draw reins are counter productive and just allow a horse to develop more of the wrong muscles enabling it to fight the rider. Yes, you will see an immediate lightening when you first take the reins off, but this is very short lived.

Your ex racers bear no relation to the ones I've had! Either that or I'm a crap trainer. All my off the track racers practically fell over if asked to do a 20 metre circle, all they knew was straight lines in walk or gallop.

I do not recognise your description of draw reins, used properly, developing the wrong muscles. Neither do I find their effects short lived.

I can only repeat, it beats me that people who hate draw reins are prepared to lunge their horses in fixed side reins. I wouldn't let a wooden-handed rider on any of my horses, and side reins are the same. They make no allowance for the horse to use itself to find its own balance, they trap it into a frame and encourage a front heavy horse to set on the bit.

 

[siennamum]

Interestingly I think canter transitions in a novice/prelim horse are an absolute insight into it's level of training.
I think it normal and natural to come above the bit to seek balance. The horse needs to have a reasonable level of balance, suppleness and engagement to not feel the need to do this. I would expect this to take months from a standing start. Fiddling them down would prevent a true transition IMO.

 

[NooNoo59]

Like any artificial aid - if needed, not often and only in experienced hands.
I have used them on my boy when he has had a break from schooling or is getting a bit above himself just to get him to focus but never for long periods of time just as a little reminder, also as my instructor says he must be kept forward so we are not just jacking the head in but getting him to relax and work through, some people dont seem to realise that if they are not working the engine and the 'back end' the front is just not going to come right, its the overall working of the horse that matters not just jamming the head in the right place. No bit of kit can replace time and effort!

 

[Wagtail]

This is not my experience Wagtail.

From what you write, you are simply head and shoulders in your ability to retrain bad horses than any other user on this forum and I would be forced to bow to your superior abilities.

For the rest of us, the occasional use of draw reins is of benefit both to us and to the horse.

I very much doubt it! It really is not that hard. Honestly, I really do not understand the need for them, especially on thoroughbreds. However, I would say that I have only been able to do this in the last eight years of training horses. The first twenty years I was learning, and pretty rubbish. I am still learning, but not so rubbish.

Your ex racers bear no relation to the ones I've had! Either that or I'm a crap trainer. All my off the track racers practically fell over if asked to do a 20 metre circle, all they knew was straight lines in walk or gallop.

Oh goodness me, no. They are not able to do circles, they do not understand 'contact' and that they can move forward into any pressure. That is why I spend the first few weeks lunging in the pessoa. By the time I get on it is a very quick process indeed to get them working over their backs into a contact. I do not even try until they are strong enough to lunge well in walk, trot and canter on a circle, and understand the verbal commands.

I do not recognise your description of draw reins, used properly, developing the wrong muscles. Neither do I find their effects short lived.

Unfortuanately, I have spent far too long trying to retrain horses that have been relentlessly schooled in them.

I can only repeat, it beats me that people who hate draw reins are prepared to lunge their horses in fixed side reins. I wouldn't let a wooden-handed rider on any of my horses, and side reins are the same. They make no allowance for the horse to use itself to find its own balance, they trap it into a frame and encourage a front heavy horse to set on the bit.

I use side reins with elastic inserts, and they are not used until the horse has been schooled ridden and is ready to work in a more advanced outline.

 

[cptrayes]

Interestingly I think canter transitions in a novice/prelim horse are an absolute insight into it's level of training.
I think it normal and natural to come above the bit to seek balance. The horse needs to have a reasonable level of balance, suppleness and engagement to not feel the need to do this. I would expect this to take months from a standing start. Fiddling them down would prevent a true transition IMO.

I absolutely agree with you, which is why I dislike fixed side reins and prefer draw reins that allow you to allow the horse to raise its head. However giving you its ears to taste is another matter. If you try to cure that with a martingale, you'll get the neck muscle on the bottom of the neck enlarged. You can do it easily, safely and without building up the wrong muscles with draw reins.

 

[tallyho!]

Just wondered what the opinions of those people who do not use side reins are about them. The SRS seem to ONLY use side reins and there is no mention of draw reins in any of my old books... (I went away and had a peruse earlier as I was so intrigued to see if there were a reference) there are lots of mentions of on the ground training though, nearly a quarter to a half of my oldest books are devoted to in-hand work.

This also got me thinking how very seldomly I see people working horses in hand these days... I only learnt how to about 7 years ago in my twenties and certainly was never taught how to lunge at my riding school. Now, I do such a lot in hand, lateral work and on the lunge. Not all of it translates into ridden but I would be keen to learn more advanced work if only I could find a decent trainer!

 

[cptrayes]

Unfortunately, I have spent far too long trying to retrain horses that have been relentlessly schooled in them.

People do use them wrongly, but it isn't a good reason to criticise people who know how to use them properly or write them off altogether, I don't think. But I would say that wouldn't I ?

I use side reins with elastic inserts, and they are not used until the horse has been schooled ridden and is ready to work in a more advanced outline.

They are still fixed, and my experience is that horses still lean on them and sock themselves in the teeth with them if they need to put their head up to get a transition through.

I dislike them just like you dislike draw reins. I don't like any lunging gadgets, in fact I don't like lunging at all. My preference is to ride the horse so that I can feel where it is having difficulties and make allowances for them. (Only if it is strong enough to do what I am doing, of course).

But that's just me. As long as your horses are happy and you are safe, that's all that really matters in the end.

 

[siennamum]

Because we struggled with a saddle for the Iberian type we have just broken in my son spent some time working him hand Tallyho.

Only walking alongside getting transitions up & down whilst staying on the contact. He carried his hand each side of the wither and a whip in the outside hand. It was far more meaningful that long reining for establishing contact and horse was able to move freely into a nice contact.

I don't have an issue with side reins, but only on certain horses. My mare will work beautifully in them, my gelding is far too sensitive.

On Wagtail's posts although I suspect I am on UI. What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?

 

[kirstykate]

Completely agree with cptrayes. There is nothing wrong with draw reins, if used correctly.

 

[lula]

This also got me thinking how very seldomly I see people working horses in hand these days...

very true and just shows how much classical training is a forgotten art for many nowadays

 

[nikicb]

I think they are one of those pieces of equipment that you can use in certain situations/with certain horses when they are needed. I used draw reins when my old girl was a complete lunatic of a 5/6/7 year old in order to hack her out on occasion to prevent her from standing up, etc. (that was almost 30 years ago though ). Would I allow the 10 year old girl who rides one of my ponies, to use them as a quick fix as her mother has suggested - not over my dead body.

 

[TGM]

On Wagtail's posts although I suspect I am on UI. What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?

Whilst I am not a draw rein fan, I can't quite understand how someone can be totally against using draw reins, yet a fan of the pessoa? At least with draw reins there is the option for the rider to release the rein, which isn't possible with the pessoa.

 

[Wagtail]

On Wagtail's posts although I suspect I am on UI. What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?

We are talking about different things entirely as one is designed for ridden work, and the other for lunging. I do not believe there is any need for gadgets when ridden, except, as I have said before, you are over horsed and it is for safety.

But these are the differences as I see them. With draw reins you are just hauling the head in. It does nothing for the back end or the back. Fitted correctly, the pessoa is loose when the horse is working long and low, with the nose only a foot or so from the floor. The cords are loose when the horse works this way and only tighten when the horse comes above the bit. The head is not tucked in like it is with draw reins. I do not use it on the higher settings as I am interested only in building top line. I do not use any gadgets when riding.

 

[Auslander]

What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?

I'd rather use draw reins than a Pessoa personally. At least with draw reins, you have the option to release the moment the horse responds. Even when a horse is working 'correctly' in a Pessoa, the thrust of their hindlegs is still socking them in the chops every stride.

I don't like any gadgets that are not affected by the rider. The most important thing, to me, is the ability to immediately reward the horse for a good reaction, and that cannot be done to such a great effect when the gadget doesn't have a good pair of hands as a key element of it.

 

[martlin]

Even when a horse is working 'correctly' in a Pessoa, the thrust of their hindlegs is still socking them in the chops every stride.

It surprises me how very few people notice that. Personally, I don't like trussing them up like that, I lunge in a chambon if I need to lunge in something and as to the back end, well, my whip hand is responsible for driving that, not a piece of string on a pulley.

 

[Wagtail]

Whilst I am not a draw rein fan, I can't quite understand how someone can be totally against using draw reins, yet a fan of the pessoa? At least with draw reins there is the option for the rider to release the rein, which isn't possible with the pessoa.

You would be surprised at how slow draw reins are to release as there is some friction where they pass through the bit rings and even if the rider completely drops the rein, the release is not immediate. That is why gadgets like the pessoa use pulleys rather than feeding the rein through the bit rings. I was teaching a client earlier this weeks and she had put draw reins on (much to my disapproval but hey ho, her horse). The horse knew he had them on due to having been schooled a lot in them in the past and so immediately came behind the vertical. My client kept taking up the slack along with the slack in the real reins and he was soon trotting around in rollkur! Now this just illustrates how awful these things are in novice hands. I am not suggesting for a moment that the more expeienced here would let that happen. But it does show that there is a high level of skill in using them effectively and not to the detriment of the horse. Obviously, I removed the reins PDQ!

 

[Wagtail]

I'd rather use draw reins than a Pessoa personally. At least with draw reins, you have the option to release the moment the horse responds. Even when a horse is working 'correctly' in a Pessoa, the thrust of their hindlegs is still socking them in the chops every stride.

I don't like any gadgets that are not affected by the rider. The most important thing, to me, is the ability to immediately reward the horse for a good reaction, and that cannot be done to such a great effect when the gadget doesn't have a good pair of hands as a key element of it.

On the contrary, when I use the pessoa, if the horse is working correctly, the lines are slack and there is no 'socking' in the mouth going on at all. The only movement is a small swing in the line as you would get if riding on the buckle.

 

[kirstykate]

We are talking about different things entirely as one is designed for ridden work, and the other for lunging. I do not believe there is any need for gadgets when ridden, except, as I have said before, you are over horsed and it is for safety.

But these are the differences as I see them. With draw reins you are just hauling the head in. It does nothing for the back end or the back. Fitted correctly, the pessoa is loose when the horse is working long and low, with the nose only a foot or so from the floor. The cords are loose when the horse works this way and only tighten when the horse comes above the bit. The head is not tucked in like it is with draw reins. I do not use it on the higher settings as I am interested only in building top line. I do not use any gadgets when riding.

Sorry but I disagree totally, if they are used correctly they don't not haul the head in and as for the back end that's up to the rider to keep it engaged. As with the pessoa the draw reins should be loose when the horse is in self carriage.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Me but only the odd times just to help pony understand something and for roughly ten/fifteen mins

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry but I disagree totally, if they are used correctly they don't not haul the head in and as for the back end that's up to the rider to keep it engaged. As with the pessoa the draw reins should be loose when the horse is in self carriage.

I appreciate what you are saying about correct use of draw reins. Unfortunately, in practice, I have never seen them used that way.

 

[Auslander]

It surprises me how very few people notice that. Personally, I don't like trussing them up like that, I lunge in a chambon if I need to lunge in something and as to the back end, well, my whip hand is responsible for driving that, not a piece of string on a pulley.

I'm a lost cause anyway. I rarely lunge, and when I do , I do it in a way that would cause the BHS to hold their hands up in horror

 

[kirstykate]

I appreciate what you are saying about correct use of draw reins. Unfortunately, in practice, I have never seen them used that way.

Totally, its the same as any gadget/bit in the wrong hands look out. We lunge in draw reins as well, we have our own round house which works better than a pessoa.

 

[Auslander]

On the contrary, when I use the pessoa, if the horse is working correctly, the lines are slack and there is no 'socking' in the mouth going on at all. The only movement is a small swing in the line as you would get if riding on the buckle.

So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.

 

[kirstykate]

So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.

Kick me if I am being stupid, but isnt that the idea of them/any other gadget its uncomfortable when the horse is going incorrectly

 

[Auslander]

Kick me if I am being stupid, but isnt that the idea of them/any other gadget its uncomfortable when the horse is going incorrectly

Yes! This is my argument!

 

[Wagtail]

So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.

The horse learns to work long and low as in a chambon or de gouge so that the lines become slack. Working long and low lifts the back and builds up top line. You can use a pessoa on a higher setting, but this is where I do not like its action. This is where there can indeed be some 'socking in the mouth' going on. That is why I only use it on its lowest setting and have found it extremely useful in building topline.