Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I have never felt the need to wrestle with a horse in draw riens wagtail you may chose not to use them put to say everyone who uses them is over horsed is frankly silly.
Draw reins... Who uses them and why?
- Thread starter The wife
- Start date
Wagtail
Horse servant
No, obviously, some people put them on as a quick fix or because they lack the skills to school the horse without them. So not all are over horsed. Look, I have never ever needed to use them, so what can I say? I have to try to envisage a scenario where I WOULD use them, and it is not for schooling because everything people have described they use them for, I have got over without them. And it does not take a long time. I HAVE used them under instruction from a trainer many years ago, but soon ditched them as they take away every bit of feel you have with a horse. But I DO know several top riders who use them, but that doesn't make it right. I think they could easily do without them.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
They may have taken away your feel they would not take away mine .
Wagtail
Horse servant
I'm talking about when you are actually using them. Not when they are removed. Horses do not have the same freedom of movement when in draw reins. You do not get the same 'feel' down the rein to correct things before they occur. I believe that when used by novices, they actually prevent the development of 'feel'. They prevent people developing the ability to solve schooling problems quickly and kindly without them. Everyone who advocates the use of draw reins seems to think they prevent you wrestling with a horse. I can honestly say I never wrestle with a horse. Most problems such as head tossing going into canter can be solved in one schooling session without them. You may have to correct the horse at the start of subsequent schooling sessions for a little while, but they soon pick it up.
I think that lots of ground work is essential to allow horses to build up the appropriate muscles before ridden work commences. All too often horses throw their heads up because they lack the strength and balance to carry themselves properly. Draw reins do not give them that strength and balance. Used on such a horse, they can only do damage. They can mask the signs that a horse is struggling with the work.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Wagtail
Horse servant
Or simply don't need them.
Look, I am sure you are a very skilled horsewoman. We just have completely different training methods. Different ways of achieving the same thing.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Honestly Wagtail I have no issues with feel when using draw riens , as for your point about the muscles development of course you have to be careful but then you see no issues with strapping a horse into a pessoa and lunging it where you have no physical feel for how much the horse is struggling because you are not on its back. When you want you can give a draw rien completely or in a couple of seconds go from trot or canter into a free rien walk you cant do that with the horse in a Pessoa .
Of course novices should not use draw riens but we are not all novices.
Of course novices should not use draw riens but we are not all novices.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I have yet to come across a horse that has been damaged by working long and low. When the horse works in a pessoa, it should be fitted so that the lines are loose when the horse works this way. I do not come across many horses who fight the pessoa so that the lines are tight, but when occasionally I do, they are not worked in it any more. It is only beneficial when the horse is working long and low and the lines are loose.
I have however come across several horses that have been left with bad backs and necks through the over use or misuse of draw reins. When I get on a horse for the first time I can tell immediately those that have been regularly ridden in draw reins. They present in one of two ways. Either they come behind the bit and hold themselves in a false outline, or more commonly, they are very strong and gobby. By over use or misuse, I mean working a horse in them for more than 10 - 15 minutes, jumping in them, or over bending the horse in them. I am sure that Cptrayes, Goldenstar, and others do not do this, but unfortunately, many people do.
And I still do not accept that they are needed.
I have however come across several horses that have been left with bad backs and necks through the over use or misuse of draw reins. When I get on a horse for the first time I can tell immediately those that have been regularly ridden in draw reins. They present in one of two ways. Either they come behind the bit and hold themselves in a false outline, or more commonly, they are very strong and gobby. By over use or misuse, I mean working a horse in them for more than 10 - 15 minutes, jumping in them, or over bending the horse in them. I am sure that Cptrayes, Goldenstar, and others do not do this, but unfortunately, many people do.
And I still do not accept that they are needed.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
No, you just haven't come across a horse where they would be beneficial yet.
You cannot cure every temperament issue, where they can be invaluable, by working long and low.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The horse I lost earlier this year was strong and gobby. My hunter is strong and gobby. One had never been in draw reins, the other exhibited strong and gobby behaviour long before I used them on him for week to train him not to drop his back and rush in walk.
My young dressage horse has always been very happy to offer me behind the verticle and has to be sent out. He had never been in draw reins before offering this way of going, and was broken using a pessoa.
Wagtail
Horse servant
That may be the case. Though I expect there are two horses here that your would have certainly put in draw reins. They have been done to death in them in the past. Both of them take a while to get nice and light and are very strong and gobby. Both are WBs started on the continent.
ETA the first arrived with the owner riding her in draw reins under instruction. The trainer, a dressage judge, was unable to get her to work in a correct outline without them. I had her working correctly within two sessions without them. Unfortunately she still gets gobby after her small owner rides her as she needs a lot of core strength to hold together (owner is 60 and her ex trainer was nearly 70 and so inability to ride her well is more of a strength issue hence the use of the draw reins).
The second was ridden in draw reins twice this week by the owner, and has suddenly developed a bad back. Immediately after the sessions. Now has to have time off. But he was being ridden overbent in them, and so I guess, incorrectly.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
You are right. There are many reasons a horse can go this way. Is it that the strong and gobby types just start off that way and therefore they are more likely to have been schooled in draw reins? Chicken and egg syndrome maybe?
Hollywood
Well-Known Member
I worked for Robert Hall many years ago, a trainer, way before his time IMO. I feel very lucky to have witnessed the 'Fulmer' method of training a horse. the Classical way of training and schooling the horse is the way forward. Draw reins and similar artificial aids have no place in training horses. What is needed is more knowledge and the time it takes to train a horse to be the best it can be. Where is the satisfaction of rushing a horse by tying him down to in an unnatural outline. The satisfaction is correctly and sympathetically training a horse in a classical way. When hopefully everyone today is outlawing the use of rolkur, why are we still using draw reins?
Auslander
Well-Known Member
Whilst I agree with most of your post - the last sentence annoys me. perhaps it should read "why are we still misusing draw reins". When used correctly, by an accomplished rider, they have their uses.
Very interesting article here about their use http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
And every single horse born is a complete angel until people spoil it? Tell that to everyone currently dealing with a feisty five or a silly six.
And even if that were so, there is no place for taking help on a horse that is temperamentally very difficult and has been made that way by its previous training?
You seem to me to be yet another person who has only seen them misused, and therefore sees no benefit, ever, in putting them on a horse.
Hollywood
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry if you were annoyed by my last sentence - that was not my intension at all, but merely my opinion. However, I would say that if a person is an accomplished rider they wouldn't need to use draw reins IMO. It has been an age old debate and the link about Classical Riding shows as with 'the old masters' some used them, some didn't. I would just say that I was taught in a way that did not, and would never condone the use of draw reins and in that I believe wholeheartedly. If others disagree that is fine, they have their opinions also. .
Hollywood
Well-Known Member
/\ This /\
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
I agree with CPTRAYES that is a very naive look at things.
I have used draw reins to solve issues and I have to say on the last horse i used them on I used them for two or three weeks then they never went on again. Problem solved and we moved on once horse realised they couldnt get away with what they were doing.
Ive been riding for 20+ years and had many horses of all shapes and sizes and coming from an experienced horsey family I can say that drawreins have a purpose but it may not be what many people see them used for IE forcing a horse into an outline. I have NEVER used them for that.
I have used draw reins to solve issues and I have to say on the last horse i used them on I used them for two or three weeks then they never went on again. Problem solved and we moved on once horse realised they couldnt get away with what they were doing.
Ive been riding for 20+ years and had many horses of all shapes and sizes and coming from an experienced horsey family I can say that drawreins have a purpose but it may not be what many people see them used for IE forcing a horse into an outline. I have NEVER used them for that.
The wife
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies guys... A very interesting and thought provoking discussion... Next question...
What made you use them? Was it influence from other people? Be it top riders, instructors, friends, even the Internet? How did you learn to use them?
What made you use them? Was it influence from other people? Be it top riders, instructors, friends, even the Internet? How did you learn to use them?
kirstykate
Well-Known Member
Yes we have been influenced by other people, but we use them correctly. Simply because time is money when you are producing/re-schooling horses A horse is to be ridden, so needs to be trained that way.
A horse is to be ridden, so needs to be trained that way.
Nightmare before Christmas
Well-Known Member
Tina Fletcher uses draw reins for flat and jumping. She did a brill demo at blue chip on using them while jump training over xpoles in front of a large stand of people which was brave! I totally agree with her and can see how they help. We guide our athletes into movements to help improve them so why not our horse?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I saw other people using them, some incorrectly . I thought "well that makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than trying to stop a headchucker with a martingale and turning its neck upside down". I have used them for short periods instead of a martingale ever since, on horses which have developed a habit of throwing up their heads to do a transition or to evade being controlled by their rider. I have never used them, and will never use them, to create an outline.
Uraeus
Well-Known Member
They do have a place in training. I have seen them used on many different horses each with different effects. One person I know schools in them because if they don't, the horses head is so high in the air, even with a martingale that it's just impossible to do anything with. This horse does not have a training issue - its just psychotic. The draws keep the horse focussed, they are not to give bend or an outline as the horse works in a natural one anyway. I believe it all depends on the horse and the hand. If used correctly and not to bend a horse so far its head is between its forelegs, then yes they do have a place. The trouble is, people use them as fast tracks to an outline which just causes a horse to strain muscles and resist against reign aids.
jennyexford
New User
Good hands and seat on a very sharp horse, no problem! Just novice riders or excuse for lack of schooling never! Again everything is a tool if used correctly!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
cptrayes said:
This exchange has been bugging me for days, as you can tell from the dates, because I knew it was wrong but I could not immediately find the flaw in it. It came to me when I was drag hunting my "man's horse" yesterday.
The discussion came from Wagtail saying that some horses are just men's horses. If we accept that, then we are basically saying that some horse will need more strength to manage than others, and Wagtail agrees but says this is "core strength" in a man, and therefore not the same as women using draw reins on a man's horse.
The fallacy in this argument, of course, is that it is the horse which is strong, requiring a stronger rider, which is what makes it a "man's horse" in the first place. Therefore the pull exerted by the horse will be identical whether the rider has draw reins or is a stronger rider without them.
The argument, if you accept that, is simply whether draw reins, as Wagtail insists, remove feeling. They certainly don't for me, and indeed I would say that one of the measures of whether you are using them properly or not is if you do still have feeling on your ordinary reins and can ride effectively with two reins.
It is also a fallacy to believe that the issue is solely to do with strength. The placement of the "pully" which gives a 2 to 1 strength increase to any tension on the draw rein compared to an ordinary rein, is perfectly placed to obtain a neck shape which will radically increase control of the horse. It's not the strength assistance which I use, primarily, as I am tall and very strong for a woman, it's the ease with which it is possible to prevent evasive behaviour on the part of the horse by placement of the mouth in relation to the hands.
If you accept that, then they become no more of an evil than any other gadget placed on a horse to restrict its movement away from undesireable directions, like lunging in a Pessoa. Just like a Pessoa, they can be abused. I don't think that is any reason for a blanket condemnation.
lula
Well-Known Member
intelligently and eloquently written.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Cptrayes, how often do you use draw reins on any one horse? Is it just the once or twice to 'correct' evasive action, or do you use them on a regular basis with each/some horses?
Sirreal
Well-Known Member
Yes, I do use them for hacking on my 6 ye old ISH. She is very, very nappy - the more you tell her off, the more she will rear, and she regularly gets to the stage where she is dangerous. I hope to only have to use them for a few weeks though. I will only school for 5-10 minutes in them, and again this is to stop her silliness. She does have the ability to go very nicely on some days so she isn't in pain (everything checked 
) just a bit too clever!
) just a bit too clever!
Wagtail
Horse servant
Of course it is not identical. One force (the draw rein) is achored and provides leverage and exerts a force that is not only stronger and less flexible than the rider's hand, but is 90 degrees different to it in direction! So competely different to a man using his core strength to influence the horse.
In regards to some horse's being 'men's horses', then would you also argue that some horses are not adult's horses? Whilst it is true that some large horses can be effectively ridden by a child, many cannot.
The question is, do draw reins deminish 'feel'? Personally, I think that they not only deminish it, but if used before a rider is fully accomplished, can prevent the full development of it in the first place. If we go back to your example of a horse throwing its head up in the canter transition and you using draw reins to cure this, why put the horse in the position where it feels the need to throw its head up in the first place? If the horse is prepared properly so that it has the strength and balance to cope with the transitions and then the rider ensures that it is properly 'through' before asking for the transition, why the need for draw reins? In fact, is it not 'feel' that enables a rider to tell if a horse is through? IME when a horse does this, it is my error. I have not ensured that he is through and soft enough to make the transition. No need for draw reins to prevent this if you use your sense of feel. Draw reins simply remove the need for you to listen to your 'feel' and are therefore IME detrimental to it.
Now this is where I have a real problem with your use of draw reins and your argument that they do not deminish your 'feel'. Feel is about the split second sensing and reaction when a horse is going to evade and preventing it before it happens, rather than physically stopping it because you have a 'safety net' in the form of draw reins.
I accept that in your correct use of draw reins you probably do not cause any harm to the horse's way of going. However, I still think that you would be able to cure and prevent evasions much more effectively without them as you are obviously an accomplished rider. In an ideal world, we would not use gadgets. However, I think that if you are lunging a horse then you need to ensure that they work the correct muscles and not many would naturally work in a beneficial outline so gadgets are necessary. However, when ridden, then the human rider is a much more effective tool for working a horse than any gadget can be.
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