Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you, Hollywood. That is what I was trying to explain to Cptrayes about why using draw reins on such horses is counter productive. But I have obviously not explained it very well.
Draw reins... Who uses them and why?
- Thread starter The wife
- Start date
Thank you, Hollywood. That is what I was trying to explain to Cptrayes about why using draw reins on such horses is counter productive. But I have obviously not explained it very well.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Go and ask some vets as I am obviously banging my head against a brick wall here.
Hollywood
Well-Known Member
Wagtail, I think you've done a brilliant job with your explanations and totally agree with your sentiments - well done for hanging on in there.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Perhaps if what I am trying to say falls on deaf ears they should read Tug of War by Dr Gerd Heuschmann.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Vets are NOT trained how to train horses unless they have a personal interest in it, they are also not physios some physios are now questioning the sense of using the pessoa on weak and rehabbing horses.
I cringe when people put Pessoa's on weak horses a lunging rope is far kinder as is an equi ami which has thebensfits of a Pessoa while radically reducing its down sides.
Hollywood
Well-Known Member
The pessoa is an abvanced training aid, so should be implemented accordingly. With any new training it should be introduced gradually and for short periods of time in walk and then progressed according to the horses progress. As with any training, knowledge and common sense should prevail.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
You have explained it fine. You just do not accept that I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU that there are NO horses which are chucking their heads about because they do not want to do what they are being asked to do, but are perfectly capable physically of doing it.
Wagtail I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU It has NOT been counter productive on any horse I have used draw reins on. There has NOT been any damage. The horses HAVE retained their training and developed proper top line. There IS more than one way to skin a cat.
Will you PLEASE stop trying to convince me?
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I can completely understand why a vet supervising a horse recovering from kissing spine surgery would want the horse worked to keep the surgery sites as far open as possible while they heal in with scar tissue. It would prevent adhesions forming which will limit future flexibility in the back.
As far as I am concerned that bears no relationship whatsoever to how I want my horses to go under saddle.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Perhaps if what I am trying to say falls on deaf ears they should read Tug of War by Dr Gerd Heuschmann.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.
Here we go again. You think you can only use draw reins if you are in a tug of war with your horse.
Yes, we know your point of view now Wagtail you have repeated it until I actually found New Tricks a lot more fun to go and watch than this discusson.
Can you finally, now, please just accept that a number of us simply do not agree with you?
madeleine1
Well-Known Member
i dont like them being used without the rains, but my mare just likes to stick her head up, she can work perfectly forward and through the back and still hold her head up, so i use the draw reins to just remind her to lower her head a little but still have my normal reins to hold her.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
If that is so, can you explain to me why the horses I have used it on for head-chucking in a transition (where I was sure it was evasion and not physical incapacity) suddenly became totally capable of a quiet step-through transition, and why once the draw reins were put aside they retained that improved transition and continued in their training with no ill effects whatsoever, several of them going on to compete at quite high levels?
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
The use of draw riens without riens is incorrect in all circunmtances ..
Wagtail
Horse servant
Sorry, but it is impossible for a horse to be working through her back with her head in the air. If your sig is typical of how she goes then she looks very hollow in her back and tense in the base of her neck. Draw reins will not address this.
Mearas
Well-Known Member
Sorry Goldenstar but have to agree with Wagtail.
As posted previously in this thread.
Why bother with any of it?
If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation?
All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.
As posted previously in this thread.
Why bother with any of it?
If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation?
All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
madeleine1
Well-Known Member
its not impossible, if u havnt ridden her u wouldnt no and those picks are when she came out of the riding school lessons befor i got her stepping under herself and using her body. i probably am expressing myself badly but what i mean is that i do u use the draw reins as a quick help so that she knows what i want as she stresses. also i didnt mean for the drew reins to be used without the reins just that some people likes its been explained in here shorten their reins to meet the shortened draw reins but i dont, on the rare occasion i use draw reins to boost her training and along side long term proper traing i only give a feel down the draw reins but have the contact with the normal reins and do not shorten it.
millitiger
Well-Known Member
Of course a horse can work through it's back with it's head up- or do horses show jumping and going cross country not use their back muscles?
Not all horses maintain a round outline in between fences when jumping but they are still working over their backs.
I have been thinking about this as I am one of the people who said have used draw reins on 2 x horses to improve the canter transition.
The first horse was scoring 70-75% under listed judges, all of his work was correct APART from the canter transition.
I don't believe he was being wilfully naughty and purposely throwing his head up; imo horses don't have the capacity to think like that if it is very specifically during one movement.
I don't believe he couldn't do it properly either as he was sufficiently muscled and his canterwork was his highlight- regularly getting 8's and 9's.
I do think that it can be a habit though- to pop off the aids, drop onto the shoulder and pull themselves into canter. All of that can happen in one stride!
He was 11 when I bought him so it was a long ingrained habit.
So I put draw reins on to show him he could stay round and correct through the transition (still with nose in front of vertical and poll the highest point).
Used for one session (for only these transitions) and the canter transitions were 100% better from that day on- I owned him for another 5 years and the improvement was maintained.
Perhaps if I was a better rider I could have done it without the rein- but as long as the horse is not forced or damaged what harm have I done?
And if we get onto the 'if I was a better rider' perhaps everyone who rides in a flash or a drop or with a full cheeked snaffle, or a martingale, or a pelham or anything but a rope halter and a saddle pad, should blame themselves and not the horse and not get back on any horse until you can control it with your seat alone and no reins and no saddle.
I doubt many people on this entire board would be able to ride this afternoon if we applied that idea!
Wagtail
Horse servant
I understand WHY people are using them, but it still puzzles me because all of the things talked about that people have used them for, I have honestly cured quickly and easily without them. I also get that people arguing in favour of them say they have them loose etc, but sadly I have never seen them used that way. Too many people are using them incorrectly. I have only personally seen bad effects from their use and so my opinion is completely unchanged. I still think they are a quick fix, that if over used can cause actual damage to the horse's necks and IME they make horses more gobby.
millitiger
Well-Known Member
I have cured the issues I talk about on lots of other horses without draw reins.
If you can cure any horse of any issue in only one session with only a simple snaffle, no noseband or any sort of artificial aid at all (apart from your beloved pessoa
) then you are a better rider than me and a better rider than every professional I have worked for- hats off to you I absolutely agree with this sentence and I am sure everyone else on this thread would too.
Of course they are a quick fix- who in their right mind wants to be using draw reins for weeks on end with little sign of improvement?
I don't agree that a quick fix is a bad thing though, as long as the horse is not harmed. The quicker the horse works correctly, the quicker he will build muscle and the quicker he will find his work easy.
Of course if they are overused (by which I presume you mean amount of pressure and leverage as well as timeframe?) they can cause damage and ruin the contact, again I don't think anyone would dispute that.
So it boils down really to you thinking that everyone who uses draw reins uses them to wrench the horse in because that is all you have personally seen so it doesn't really matter what anyone says on this thread because unless you see it with your own eyes, you won't believe them when they say they are loose or the horse is working correctly over it's back?
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
Haven't read all the replies but the biggest users of draw reins I have seen are from professionals. Not for or against really. I actually used draw reins more at the track than I have on my own horses. Right or wrong. One particular mare I put them on myself did nothing but trot in them. She had no ability to trot when I started getting on her. She had a spotty race record and was very well bred. The only time she was without them was when we turned around to breeze. This very well bred mare went on to win 2 and place in a couple before being retired. When we trotted 3 miles daily I mean full extended working trot to build her very weak frame. I'm quite sure her owners were happy with her improvement and she became a big strong mare. Actually I'm sure the owners were delighted she won a couple finally. And she's also the dam of the most expensive horse ever bought at auction.
When I look at tools in my toolbox I have to remember they come from getting on thousands of horses. Not 10, not 50. I don't use draw reins at the moment. Don't need to, but I may again.
And also there is a big difference in schooling your own horses for years on end and the business end of horses. You can hate the business end all you like but it pays wages and keeps the horse world going. It may not be our way of wanting to do things but owners want returns. If pro's use draw reins to keep horses working the way they need to then so be it. And this is coming from an owner who snatched her mare away from a trainer for over using draw reins and making my mare nuts. I have the time. I bred this mare and she is my future foundation broodmare once she's doing her 1.30's. I want it done correctly. I want my mare happy and I have the time. Hence forth why as a 6 YO we have just been reschooling without draw reins. It's been a long road but finally light at the end of the tunnel.
Ok, off my soapbox now.
Terri
When I look at tools in my toolbox I have to remember they come from getting on thousands of horses. Not 10, not 50. I don't use draw reins at the moment. Don't need to, but I may again.
And also there is a big difference in schooling your own horses for years on end and the business end of horses. You can hate the business end all you like but it pays wages and keeps the horse world going. It may not be our way of wanting to do things but owners want returns. If pro's use draw reins to keep horses working the way they need to then so be it. And this is coming from an owner who snatched her mare away from a trainer for over using draw reins and making my mare nuts. I have the time. I bred this mare and she is my future foundation broodmare once she's doing her 1.30's. I want it done correctly. I want my mare happy and I have the time. Hence forth why as a 6 YO we have just been reschooling without draw reins. It's been a long road but finally light at the end of the tunnel.
Ok, off my soapbox now.
Terri
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
No, you haven't.
You have never, by what you have written, ridden a horse that throws its head into the air on a transition even though it has all the physical capability to do the transition correctly.
You have never ridden "feisty five" or "silly six" horses who are just going to throw a tantrum because of their age, or you would recognise that some horses present training difficulties that are nothing to do with their physical ability to do what is asked of them.
You've never even seen draw reins used properly and didn't know that they do not sit at an angle of 90 degrees to the correct rein position, or even anywhere near it.
And yet you condemn them and tell all of us who find them a useful tool in the box for some horses that we don't know what we are doing and that we are all overhorsed.
Can you not acknowledge the slightest possibility, Wagtail, that some of us have a different way to skin the cat than you?
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Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
CPTrayes,
Well said!
Terri
Well said!
Terri
Wagtail
Horse servant
I have cured the issues I talk about on lots of other horses without draw reins.
If you can cure any horse of any issue in only one session with only a simple snaffle, no noseband or any sort of artificial aid at all (apart from your beloved pessoa
This thread is about draw reins. Why draw reins? Because they are a contentious issue. More so than other gadgets. Disliking draw reins does not mean that you have to dislike all other gadgets used on a horse. That is just silly.
Regarding curing all issues with all horses without any gadgets other than a pessoa, then of course I can't.
However, I can cure the type of issue mentioned in this thread such as a horse throwing its head up during a canter transition without resorting to draw reins. So long as the horse is at the appropriate level of training and is physically prepared and able. Only two days ago I had to tackle this exact problem. A twelve year old warmblood who had been competing at novice level and so should be more than capable of making a good canter transition. But Owner was getting a persistant throwing up of his head every time that she asked and it had become a habit. In fact, the first transition with me, he did it too. It was MY error. All the following transitions were far better and by the end of only ten minutes of canter work his trot to canter and walk to canter were spot on. But owner gets back on and the problem immediately returned. So it was all down to rider error. She informed me that she used draw reins at her last yard to get him out of the habit, but having seen that he did not do it with me, she realised the problem lay with her and we will be working on it in the next couple of weeks.
No, I completely and utterly believe that you and Cptrayes use draw reins correctly, though when CPtrays said she used them to put a horse in hyperflexion, I hardly think they were hanging loose!
But I do think that they are broadly used incorrectly by less knowledgable people.
Please see the recent exampe I have given above.
We interpret their behaviour in different ways, that's all. You give them human characteristics and intentions. I do not.
I posted a link to another thread earlier with a picture showing the angle was almost 90 degrees. Obviously it is not if you clip the reins at the sides, but more commonly they are clipped between the horses's front legs.
Yes I completely agree that you do have a different way. Why can't you accept that the behavious such as transition problems can be cured without them?
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Wagtail
Horse servant
The angle is almost 90 degrees.
http://www.millbryhill.co.uk/view_image.html?image_id=10161&product_id=43751
http://www.millbryhill.co.uk/view_image.html?image_id=10161&product_id=43751
millitiger
Well-Known Member
This thread is about draw reins. Why draw reins? Because they are a contentious issue. More so than other gadgets. Disliking draw reins does not mean that you have to dislike all other gadgets used on a horse. That is just silly.
Regarding curing all issues with all horses without any gadgets other than a pessoa, then of course I can't.
Apologies then but previously in this post you have said there is no place for gadgets unless for safety (quote above) so I presumed you never use any gadget for any schooling issue?
So what about the horse I have used as an example?
The rider (me) was the same before and after the session with the draw reins and as he improved so much after using the draw reins for 10 minutes and, very importantly, KEPT the improvement, is it still rider error?
Was I asking incorrectly before and suddenly started to ask correctly coincidently with using the draw reins? Probably not
Wagtail
Horse servant
It depends on your definition of gadgets. I don't class bits that are dressage legal as gadgets. Though I suppose you could say that curb bits are gadgets. I don't tend to use them at all on my own horses, but if a client wants to put one on their horse, then that is fine by me, and I accept that some horses actually work better and are calmer in a pelham than a snaffle. It all depends what suits the horse. By gadgets I mean things used as schooling aids such as bungees, side reins, draw reins etc. I also dislike flash nosebands as I think if a horse is happy with its bit then it does not need one. I CAN see a place for draw reins, standing martingales etc as safety precautions, but not as schooling aids.
So what about the horse I have used as an example?
The rider (me) was the same before and after the session with the draw reins and as he improved so much after using the draw reins for 10 minutes and, very importantly, KEPT the improvement, is it still rider error?
Was I asking incorrectly before and suddenly started to ask correctly coincidently with using the draw reins? Probably not
The horse was throwing its head up due to habit and the draw reins broke that habit. I don't dispute that draw reins can be used in this way. However, I prefer not to resort to them. Believe me, it has been tempting sometimes even for me to slap on some draw reins when having to school the 17 hh hyper spooky warmblood on my yard. I would feel far safer and it would be easy peasy for me. But I would feel I was cheating my client as I would just be doing something that she could do herself! Why pay me to ride her horse around in draw reins? FWIW, I do have a pair and the last time they were used was seven years ago on an ex racer (my own) who would bolt in the school. I used them once, and yes, he was easier, but in this instance the problem was still there when I removed them. So I never put them on him again. He was the most difficult one I have ever had to retrain. And yes, it took time, but in the end he made a cracking little dressage horse.
millitiger
Well-Known Member
I think there is a very fine line between gadget and artificial aid- I was being purposely provocative with my list of tack, just to try and make my point that the line is very blurred, assuming the aid/gadget is being used with tact and feel.
What is the definition of gadget and why, in your mind, do BD legal bits not come under gadgets but BD legal tack does?
I rode my little mare in a hanging cheek french link and the amount of people who thought that was 'cheating' was unbelievable- even listed BD judges, sadly showing they don't truly understand leverage and simple physics.
Funnily enough both horses I used my draw reins on were under 16hh, so go figure
My current horse is 18hh, very powerful, big moving and he can test his boundaries- it would never cross my mind to use draw reins on him as he would not benefit from them and they would create a heap more issues than they would solve with him.
Draw reins aren't about strength at all for me and I don't try and use them to overpower the horse- it is nothing to do with the size of the horse for me.
And if you were to use draw reins with your 17hh warmblood in for schooling; I don't think you would be cheating as you would be using the reins in conjunction with your superior riding skills so she wouldn't be able to do it herself.
(btw, how nice to have a debate without people getting bitchy or over-zealous
)
Wagtail
Horse servant
Got to go out and do a lesson now. But totally agree, I love a good debate and am always interested to hear others' views on things. I have even changed my thinking due so some discussions one here. There is never a need to get bitchy.
Mearas
Well-Known Member
My last post page 19, should have read sorry Madelaine 1 not Goldenstar. Trouble with posting in a rush. Apologies everyone especially Goldenstar.
Most horses will through their heads in the air because they are unbalanced. They can be unbalanced because they are not supple or not in the correct rhythm, address these issues and they will not through their heads in the air. Putting draw reins on soes not address either of these isssues.
Most horses will through their heads in the air because they are unbalanced. They can be unbalanced because they are not supple or not in the correct rhythm, address these issues and they will not through their heads in the air. Putting draw reins on soes not address either of these isssues.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Ah now I understand I was confused.