Dreadful Handing at Arab Show
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SusannaF
Well-Known Member
I really thought that the Arab horse show folk in the UK didn't let this stuff happen. How disappointing. 
idx
Well-Known Member
I think most have agreed this is appauling behaviour but lots of people must have been spectating and did nothing? If this was a UK show I would be emailing the secretary with a link to this forum to show the level of disgust.
Just because something has always been done does not make it acceptable - so I would challenge each of us to think what are we doing to do next time we see something as unacceptable as at a show. COMPLAIN to the judge, secretary and anyone else who will listen.
There was an interesting post the other day about by-stander effect here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=487413
Just because something has always been done does not make it acceptable - so I would challenge each of us to think what are we doing to do next time we see something as unacceptable as at a show. COMPLAIN to the judge, secretary and anyone else who will listen.
There was an interesting post the other day about by-stander effect here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=487413
somethingorother
Well-Known Member
Some of this has been blown out of of proportion. I have never ever seen any arab at a show or the few i have seen in training being whipped around the head. I don't see it in those videos either.
The shanking is awful, and i always wonder how they don't end up with bone deformities or bigger bony growths on their jaws from it.
These people get paid so much money to do this, and everyone gets caught up in the excitement and follows whatever these 'experts' do. God forbid you say a word against them (i have). To be honest i am unsure how i feel, i have seen one trainer with youngsters and they have been poohing in fear at the sight of him, trying to figure out what is wanted when the aids or neither clear nor calm and involve a lot of flinging a whip from side to side and shanking on the chain. But then none of this persons horses were scared of them, they were all affectionate and I have even affection in the ring with one of the stallions and this person. So surely they can't be too traumatised.
The owners do become blind to it though, they are surrounded by it all the time and it is completely normal to them. Sadly.
The amount of bagging that goes on in the collecting ring is disgusting. The mare and foal classes were particularly upsetting, with young foals falling over with fear at their mothers being wound up and chased around. No one does anything, it's 'normal'....
But not all trainers shank, and not all horses that are excited and silly in the ring are nutty, abused, beaten victims. I don't beleive that it's as common as made out for them to be whipped in the stables either. I see no reason for it when you can do enough in full view and get away with it.
The shanking is awful, and i always wonder how they don't end up with bone deformities or bigger bony growths on their jaws from it.
These people get paid so much money to do this, and everyone gets caught up in the excitement and follows whatever these 'experts' do. God forbid you say a word against them (i have). To be honest i am unsure how i feel, i have seen one trainer with youngsters and they have been poohing in fear at the sight of him, trying to figure out what is wanted when the aids or neither clear nor calm and involve a lot of flinging a whip from side to side and shanking on the chain. But then none of this persons horses were scared of them, they were all affectionate and I have even affection in the ring with one of the stallions and this person. So surely they can't be too traumatised.
The owners do become blind to it though, they are surrounded by it all the time and it is completely normal to them. Sadly.
The amount of bagging that goes on in the collecting ring is disgusting. The mare and foal classes were particularly upsetting, with young foals falling over with fear at their mothers being wound up and chased around. No one does anything, it's 'normal'....
But not all trainers shank, and not all horses that are excited and silly in the ring are nutty, abused, beaten victims. I don't beleive that it's as common as made out for them to be whipped in the stables either. I see no reason for it when you can do enough in full view and get away with it.
somethingorother
Well-Known Member
Towerlands is a UK show, they're basically all the same...
And one person complaining will just be laughed at. I have no idea how you go about changing the mindset of a whole culture, but i do think it is starting to happen slowly... hopefully.
amandap
Well-Known Member
It's a shame some of the handlers can't run fast enough and the horses have to trot with a bent neck!
The thing that really sticks out for me in all this is the presence, fire, spirit, showing themselves off, or whatever you want to call it, is a picture of horses on high alert and often afraid! That adrenaline produces the alert poses and to me it is a shame that we can't seem to see or admire a horses true conformation without invoking fear.
The thing that really sticks out for me in all this is the presence, fire, spirit, showing themselves off, or whatever you want to call it, is a picture of horses on high alert and often afraid! That adrenaline produces the alert poses and to me it is a shame that we can't seem to see or admire a horses true conformation without invoking fear.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
It's a shame some of the handlers can't run fast enough and the horses have to trot with a bent neck!
The thing that really sticks out for me in all this is the presence, fire, spirit, showing themselves off, or whatever you want to call it, is a picture of horses on high alert and often afraid! That adrenaline produces the alert poses and to me it is a shame that we can't seem to see or admire a horses true conformation without invoking fear.
like
Crackers if you ask me but... there you go 21st Century horsemanship. We can succeed in making a digital future yet fail to be smart enough to handle a horse...
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Here is our French trainer, with our 3 year old colt at his 'approval' in France. Non of the rough handling displayed on the other videos.
http://www.shagyafrance.fr/elevage/etalons/arabe-shagyas/under-milkwood
http://www.shagyafrance.fr/elevage/etalons/arabe-shagyas/under-milkwood
amandap
Well-Known Member
Omg! It's like a scene from some sort of frenzied Spanish spoof horror movie.I take it the manic music and woos are designed to energize the horses and crowd. I'm sorry to say it looks a sad, awful mockery to me. No wonder horses think we are nuts... we are!
Have to go back to watch it all without sound. I daren't put the sound on the original clip.
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Avonbrook
Well-Known Member
Actually they will be bullied, intimidated, the subject of direct and indirect threats and, on occasion, forced into taking legal proceedings to protect themselves and their own.
It needs numbers and weight of public opinion, which is why even this thread alone is serving a purpose in shining a light. Yes it has been noticed.
Ultimately then the truth will dawn that what these people regard as normal behaviour by humans just plain isn't. Whether that starts with owners and sponsors no longer wishing to be associated with such a tarnished arena or official bodies seeing the potential collapse of their power bases I can't predict. But for the first time I sense that there becomes enough momentum building for the balance to shift.
brown tack
Well-Known Member
How about Morgan horses then,
This is of a two year old filly being shown in a long shank curb bit, and again lots of winding up the horse
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=GB#/watch?v=TWAedomjFlo
This is of a two year old filly being shown in a long shank curb bit, and again lots of winding up the horse
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=GB#/watch?v=TWAedomjFlo
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
Really?
Oberon
Well-Known Member
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
If you can't even be bothered to read the whole thread and the rest of my replies then I really can't be bothered to explain to you!
idx
Well-Known Member
Appauling that people are intimidated but I am interested in what you go onto say. Do you mean this thread has been noticed? Do you think momentum is building for change? Are they waking up to reality?
bluewhippet
Well-Known Member
What happens in the endurance world that is abhorrent? Genuine question - haven't a clue...
bluewhippet
Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree more. Mine is like a fairy tale horse too. And now I am going to have to end this before I get really really soppy!
Avonbrook
Well-Known Member
Yes, although I don't know if directly by the "right" people yet. Yes, two very well known professionals have publically put their necks on the line. No, not yet.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Sounds like those no go areas on some estates where one family and their side kicks 'rule'. "You do what I say or you and your family gets it!"
Avonbrook
Well-Known Member
Sounds like those no go areas on some estates where one family and their side kicks 'rule'. "You do what I say or you and your family gets it!"
I'll let you know if I find out as a result of posting on here
amandap
Well-Known Member
I'll let you know if I find out as a result of posting on here
I just hope you can! Seriously though, this sort of intimidation is very controlling (and scary) due to the threatened, vague and implied, sinister consequences of taking a stand.The vagueness lets your mind run away... It's a gang mentality and seems to always be associated with gain at the expense of others.
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StuartH
New User
I believe that, at last, the grass roots Owners and Breeders and a couple of die hard genuine 'in hand' handlers are climbing off their 'proverbials' and insisting on being heard.
One last time for those that cannot apparently see what is the tip of the iceberg for this breed........
Look and be aghast!!
http://youtu.be/jW_kWUip7TQ
One last time for those that cannot apparently see what is the tip of the iceberg for this breed........
Look and be aghast!!
http://youtu.be/jW_kWUip7TQ
0ldmare
Well-Known Member
Note to self: Never buy an arab that's been shown. Which is surely the opposite of what is intended by showing them in the 1st place....?
minkymoo
Well-Known Member
I feel it is distasteful at the least that a breed of horse that was revered and prized by the nomadic Bedouin people, often being brought inside the family tent for shelter and protection is reduced to this.
For a breed that has an ability to form a cooperative relationship with humans, is good-natured, quick to learn, and willing to please to be intimidated and frightened into performing with crappy music and people whooping and cheering is simply disgusting.
I have an Anglo Arab and to watch him behave like an idiot in the field is one of my secret pleasures, he looks so beautiful, but he does it because he wants to, not because I do. I pride myself on both my horses being well mannered and pleasant to be around. To actively encourage bad behaviour whilst waving sticks in their face - just incomprehensible IMHO. Shameful.
Fii
Well-Known Member
I have'nt been able to see the vids, but i get the gist of whats been shown.
It makes me think my Arab may have been shown as a stallion in his past.
He will walk and trot next to me on the lead rope perfectly, with me just holding the very tip, and lunges perfectly, BUT... bring a stick, lunge whip anywhere near him and he completly freaks!!
It makes me think my Arab may have been shown as a stallion in his past.
He will walk and trot next to me on the lead rope perfectly, with me just holding the very tip, and lunges perfectly, BUT... bring a stick, lunge whip anywhere near him and he completly freaks!!
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
I just dread to think what goes on at home - if they will treat animals like that on public display - well the more years I spend around horses, the more I wonder what type of a hobby I am involved in - more and more of it sickens me each and every day.
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
This.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIQokNqFKlU&feature=related
a horse that stretchs to the stick not shys away from it.. take note of the bay in the back ground. the arabs in the original clip, weather its snppets put to gether or not it is not needed, just like the out cry of fat horses in the show ring.
a horse that stretchs to the stick not shys away from it.. take note of the bay in the back ground. the arabs in the original clip, weather its snppets put to gether or not it is not needed, just like the out cry of fat horses in the show ring.
marvie
Well-Known Member
Hi Avonbrook
You have made some very valid points, what is needed now is for those from the ruling europe and world conferences to accept responsibility so that change can be initiated, but i have little faith happening after all the faces that seat these bodies breed, own and show themselves. Apart from a select few in the uk the wider world of arab showing is seriously big bucks. The more naive sympathists need to open their eyes, i have sent away a handler from the yard who on first appearance seemed kind - kind enough to give the horse a treat every time before the horse was shanked hard wearing a training halter with a heavy duty chain - what kind of logic says you give a child a sweetie before inflicting pain on it - abuse and very warped, but i can see the horses would prick their ears toward the handler in expectation which would give a very warped effect in the ring of the real training methods behind the pose.
I have just parted with my last show filly who was very sweet in all ways and have a loveley yearling who by far i would lass as my best but she will never grace the affiliated show circuit, i don't want to be associated with the pantomime any longer, some people who i once associated with i now feel embarassed to have known.
You have made some very valid points, what is needed now is for those from the ruling europe and world conferences to accept responsibility so that change can be initiated, but i have little faith happening after all the faces that seat these bodies breed, own and show themselves. Apart from a select few in the uk the wider world of arab showing is seriously big bucks. The more naive sympathists need to open their eyes, i have sent away a handler from the yard who on first appearance seemed kind - kind enough to give the horse a treat every time before the horse was shanked hard wearing a training halter with a heavy duty chain - what kind of logic says you give a child a sweetie before inflicting pain on it - abuse and very warped, but i can see the horses would prick their ears toward the handler in expectation which would give a very warped effect in the ring of the real training methods behind the pose.
I have just parted with my last show filly who was very sweet in all ways and have a loveley yearling who by far i would lass as my best but she will never grace the affiliated show circuit, i don't want to be associated with the pantomime any longer, some people who i once associated with i now feel embarassed to have known.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
So...
... this video has been posted, apparently in response to the 'shanking' video.
http://www.vimeo.com/30065087
It only confirms to me that the whole arab showing scene is far better without the shanking.
... this video has been posted, apparently in response to the 'shanking' video.
http://www.vimeo.com/30065087
It only confirms to me that the whole arab showing scene is far better without the shanking.
Avonbrook
Well-Known Member
Apparently the second video was posted by a groom to one of the handlers in the first video. It is however worth watching.
These horses are trained to cues. The touch to the forelock in particular strikes me as a cue to say "its okay, its over now". Having watched some of the livefeed from Aachan, sometimes this is a lie and it all starts again - depending on the stage of the class. The horse goes into anxious arousal immediately the cues change.
Look at the licking and chewing several of them exhibit after the "its okay" cue is given. This is an autonomic nervous system response - beginning to come down from fight/flight and the adrenalin begins to drop.
Try to find a horse that responds back to the handler when fondled rather than just looking relieved and for the exit.
Make up your own minds.
Apparently the handler who blew the whistle initially has a high level meeting with one of the main organising bodies in a few weeks. I have followed a suggestion on another general horse forum and emailed World Horse Welfare to ask them to express an interest in the current practices in the hope that such an expression of interest from an external powerful animal welfare organisation will focus minds.
I am under no illusions that this is all about money, power and "face" not about horses particularly. What needs to happen is for the scene - which has been marketed and perceived as being prestigious, shiney and something to be aspired to - now to be perceived by those currently using it to make money or as a power base as being tarnished and in danger of being lost to them. Then something might change.
These horses are trained to cues. The touch to the forelock in particular strikes me as a cue to say "its okay, its over now". Having watched some of the livefeed from Aachan, sometimes this is a lie and it all starts again - depending on the stage of the class. The horse goes into anxious arousal immediately the cues change.
Look at the licking and chewing several of them exhibit after the "its okay" cue is given. This is an autonomic nervous system response - beginning to come down from fight/flight and the adrenalin begins to drop.
Try to find a horse that responds back to the handler when fondled rather than just looking relieved and for the exit.
Make up your own minds.
Apparently the handler who blew the whistle initially has a high level meeting with one of the main organising bodies in a few weeks. I have followed a suggestion on another general horse forum and emailed World Horse Welfare to ask them to express an interest in the current practices in the hope that such an expression of interest from an external powerful animal welfare organisation will focus minds.
I am under no illusions that this is all about money, power and "face" not about horses particularly. What needs to happen is for the scene - which has been marketed and perceived as being prestigious, shiney and something to be aspired to - now to be perceived by those currently using it to make money or as a power base as being tarnished and in danger of being lost to them. Then something might change.