Dunne v Frost

bonny said:
The definition of bullying is if the victim feels bullied. It’s not up to you to decide.
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Sorry Bonny, I don't think that's true. You only need to see how many times people on this forum say they have been bullied when actually all that's happened is that they have been disagreed with. It's also possible for gaslighting to result in a victim who swears blind they don't feel bullied when they have been.

I think it diminishes what's happened to Bryony Frost to say it's bullying just because she feels bullied.
 
ycbm said:
Sorry Bonny, I don't think that's true. You only need to see how many times people on this forum say they have been bullied when actually all that's happened is that they have been disagreed with. It's also possible for gaslighting to result in a victim who swears blind they don't feel bullied when they have been.

I think it diminishes what's happened to Bryony Frost to say it's bullying just because she feels bullied.
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Bonny's right when referring to, eg, workplace bullying. The perception of the person on the receiving end (I hate the word victim) is what counts, not the intent of the perpetrator. It does away with the 'banter' excuse. I think you quoted the case of racism in Yorkshire cricket club earlier - the perception of the cricketers who believed they were the targets of racist bullying means it was bullying, not the banter claimed by the other players.
 
Fred66 said:
Whilst the evidence heard so far shows he has not behaved well I am not yet convinced that the evidence shows him guilty of bullying.

If nothing else comes from this case hopefully it highlights that the culture needs to change.
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If calling a woman a f****** w****, a f****** c***, waving your penis at her, and threatening to physically hurt her by riding her into the wings isn't bullying, I'd be interested to hear your definition?
 
TheOldTrout said:
Bonny's right when referring to, eg, workplace bullying. The perception of the person on the receiving end (I hate the word victim) is what counts, not the intent of the perpetrator
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I don't think that is always true, sorry. I have known people claim their boss is bullying them when what the boss is doing is following the rules to sort out an issue of poor performance. The "victim" feels bullied, but isn't.
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ycbm said:
I don't think that is always true, sorry. I have known people claim their boss is bullying them when what the boss is doing is following the rules to sort out an issue of poor performance. The "victim" feels bullied, but isn't.
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So much this - in nearly every case of bullying I had to deal with in the workplace, it was more a case of a manager attempting to manage a poor performer.
 
The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:
So much this - in nearly every case of bullying I had to deal with in the workplace, it was more a case of a manager attempting to manage a poor performer.
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Which begs the question of why they are not managing them properly, and why the employee feels "bullied" and not "managed".

In my experience a lot of undesirable behaviour in the workplace stems from crap management, and not dealing with raised issues before they escalate.

I know it is easy to shout "bully" just because you disagree with someone else's pov, but we really need to start giving a bit more credence to situations where concerns are raised and nothing is done to establish why someone feels strongly enough to say something. It really isn't easy being a victim of this sort of thing, and it's even harder to stand up and call it out.

I see Gwent police are issuing an apology today ......
 
In reply to Rowreach - the "attempting" was stated because the manager was trying to manage the situation but was being thwarted by the employee's accusations. Yes, some of the situations were caused by crap management and some were caused by a manager being very reluctant to deal with a tricky employee because they knew they were likely to be accused of bullying. However, a significant number were employees pushing back on well deserved performance plans which in many cases were constructive and were about positively trying to work with the employee to close the gap between required and actual performance, Bullying is unacceptable in any situation - workplace or in leisure or sport, but sadly not every accusation of bullying is genuine, and this needs to be recognised.

As someone who stood up to workplace bullying (as a witness) and whistleblew to the detriment of my career and personal life, I do feel aggrieved by those who make unfounded accusations - it makes those with genuine bullying issues have to work even harder to get the issue resolved in what is already likely to be a hostile environment.
 
The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:
In reply to Rowreach - the "attempting" was stated because the manager was trying to manage the situation but was being thwarted by the employee's accusations. Yes, some of the situations were caused by crap management and some were caused by a manager being very reluctant to deal with a tricky employee because they knew they were likely to be accused of bullying. However, a significant number were employees pushing back on well deserved performance plans which in many cases were constructive and were about positively trying to work with the employee to close the gap between required and actual performance, Bullying is unacceptable in any situation - workplace or in leisure or sport, but sadly not every accusation of bullying is genuine, and this needs to be recognised.

As someone who stood up to workplace bullying (as a witness) and whistleblew to the detriment of my career and personal life, I do feel aggrieved by those who make unfounded accusations - it makes those with genuine bullying issues have to work even harder to get the issue resolved in what is already likely to be a hostile environment.
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I totally agree.
 
well i don`t think she is over sensitive, perhaps dunne was raised with different manners, attitude`s in a society where men do things like he does and people turn a blind eye

if everything he did was true, it goes beyond bullying, exposing one`s self is sexual harassment, threatening to put someone through a wing and do them damage is intimidation with threats of violence to the person

my experience of men who expose themselves is that they have done it before

she did the right thing not meeting up with him, who in their right mind wants to sit across the table with an abuser, she is better to walk away and not get in deeper, and expose herself to a trauma that may well haunt her for life

i was once offered a meeting with an abuser, i declined, i preferred to keep the wall of my personal space intact, and could not see how anything good for me would come out of it
 
minesadouble said:
Oh and in defence of Elf I have to say that there is probably no one on this forum who is in a better position to gauge the general feeling of the racing world to an individual high profile jockey, male or female.
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indeed. And that’s very worrying. If Ms Frost was known for riding dangerously why hasn’t action been taken by multiple stewards or the BHA?

Nicholls and the owners stand by her. That’s good enough for me.
 
teapot said:
https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...t-bullying-claims-against-robbie-dunne/526091

'If something needs to change, that's for the future, that's a policy matter, a political matter. You can only judge Mr Dunne against the present weighing room'.

My reading of that is Roderick Moore thinks what happens in the weighing room isn't an issue/is ok because it continues to happens? Hmmmm. Times a' changing chaps.
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That is not the best of defence sIMHO. Just because it used to be OK does not mean it is now. It is interesting to see how sides have been taken and if this will impact on those currently riding. I can foresee some owners not wanting his supporters on their horses if he is found guilty of some or all the charges he has pleaded not guilty to. I understand some not wanting to be drawn into this so have sat firmly on the fence. I suspect the towel dropping and willy waving might bite him on the bum so to speak.
 
Velcrobum said:
That is not the best of defence sIMHO. Just because it used to be OK does not mean it is now. It is interesting to see how sides have been taken and if this will impact on those currently riding. I can foresee some owners not wanting his supporters on their horses if he is found guilty of some or all the charges he has pleaded not guilty to. I understand some not wanting to be drawn into this so have sat firmly on the fence. I suspect the towel dropping and willy waving might bite him on the bum so to speak.
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It's a very odd defence isn't it? I'm trying to think of a parallel to show just how odd a defence it is and coming up short.
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This has made me remember an old YO, when I expressed interest in potentially working on a racing yard warning me to steer well clear due to the amount of bullying that goes on. She was no pearl clutcher either.

It sounds very much an old boys club, it's interesting he is still getting rides including one on Saturday in a televised meeting and nearly won. I'm surprised trainers aren't distancing themselves from using him until this is dealt with, as it just adds to the boys club image...

There are several female jockeys now, I'm surprised they have to go into the men's room to access the valets - why can't a valet be set up in their changing room? What other work place would expect a female to walk into a men's changing room?

I get he was possibly aggrieved by what he perceived "dangerous" riding but you just don't use those words. You don't see stories in F1 about Hamilton and Verstappen who are bitter rivals swearing at each other and calling each other abusive terms

Surely he needs some sort of punishment, racing is going to look very bad if he breezes away unpunished
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
I get he was possibly aggrieved by what he perceived "dangerous" riding but you just don't use those words. You don't see stories in F1 about Hamilton and Verstappen who are bitter rivals swearing at each other and calling each other abusive terms
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I'm not so sure that's true! They're happy enough to try and take each other out at 200mph...
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
This has made me remember an old YO, when I expressed interest in potentially working on a racing yard warning me to steer well clear due to the amount of bullying that goes on. She was no pearl clutcher either.

It sounds very much an old boys club, it's interesting he is still getting rides including one on Saturday in a televised meeting and nearly won. I'm surprised trainers aren't distancing themselves from using him until this is dealt with, as it just adds to the boys club image...

There are several female jockeys now, I'm surprised they have to go into the men's room to access the valets - why can't a valet be set up in their changing room? What other work place would expect a female to walk into a men's changing room?

I get he was possibly aggrieved by what he perceived "dangerous" riding but you just don't use those words. You don't see stories in F1 about Hamilton and Verstappen who are bitter rivals swearing at each other and calling each other abusive terms

Surely he needs some sort of punishment, racing is going to look very bad if he breezes away unpunished
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Hmmm, F1 has had more than its fair share of punchups on and off the track over the years, and verbal abuse ....
 
ycbm said:
I'm not sure any of them have threatened to run the other off the track in a future race, have they?
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Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.
 
Fred66 said:
Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.
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Honestly Fred, it's about bloody time someone was brave enough to insist on a proper case being taken against someone if racing really is that toxic, because its the only way it will stop, isn't it?

Well done Bryony for taking the risk, in my view. This will mark the beginning of what sounds like a hugely overdue change in racing, whether he is found guilty of the charges he hasn't already admitted or not.
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ycbm said:
Honestly Fred, it's about bloody time someone was brave enough to insist on a proper case being taken against someone if racing really is that toxic, because its the only way it will stop, isn't it?

Well done Bryony for taking the risk, in my view. This will mark the beginning of what sounds like a hugely overdue change in racing, whether he is found guilty of the charges he hasn't already admitted or not.
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Agree that the culture of the weighing rooms appears to need dragging into the 21st century but if Dunnes behaviour is typical of the overall culture and he is no worse no better than the others then I personally think it wrong for him to be made a scape goat. (caveats as before)
The authorities that have allowed this culture to flourish are the ones that should be on trial and should be ensuring that this attitude is consigned to the past.
 
Fred66 said:
Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.
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Really, so its OK to threaten you injure someone, just because it's common occurrence, and also have the means and opportunity to do so. It's a workplace, it just so happens that the worker has 500kg to control at speed to wipe someone out and give them life changing injuries.
The irony is that racing depends on female workers, a lot do stables, travel and ride out, the grunt work, as soon as it's light to last stables, so before he gets the chance to but his bum on the plate, someone has done the basic graft for him.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1638994196
I feel that the women who support this industry behind the scenes are basically being treated as fools, or worse, and used as window dressing, they can play as long as they stay in their place, but step out of it, and expect to be called vile names and worse.
 
I don't doubt that this is a case of the 'princess' versus the MCP but she has had a ban for careless riding and I think this is one of his grievances. A lot of bickering could be cleared up by an outright disqualification for interference. Jockeys get a ban and lose a few days pay but the win still stands. A demotion that affected trainers , owners and the punters might focus the mind on less drifting and carelessness and more attention on actually seeing a gap.
As for the name calling, well these are Irish terms of endearment. Who can forget: You're a bum, you're a punk, you're an old slut on junk, lying there almost dead with that drip in that bed. You scumbag you maggot you cheap lousy (mixture of beef and pork with breadcrumbs and sliced onions)
Keeping it seasonal :-)
 
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