Electrified spurs !

[tristar]

so is the issue that some people mis-use them?
there are plenty more people that mis-use their snaffle bit and heels of their jodhpur boots, day after day all across the country. everyone should aspire to be fair to their horse in training but I don't think that the perceived actions of some mean that no one should have access to training aids or equipment that many people find useful and horses do not suffer from.

It's all very well picking holes in the performance of other people. the horses might well be better than the riders but I would say that most people are trying to be the best that they can be and I'd guess that most would describe themselves as a work in progress. if we go down the route of demanding utter perfection for the good of the horse, IMO it ends up in the rabbit hole that riding horses full stop is not ethical and no matter how much of a wonderful rider you are, you just shouldn't be doing it.

its not a matter of picking holes, in someones performance, its a matter of knowing what you want to see and having the courage to say, well i wish it was like this, and not like that

until we do it will all drizzle on, they can do what they want, but I want things to change and progress, better understanding of the performance horse, appropriately bred horses for soundness, training techniques promoted by FEI BHS or similar, where there is an emphasis on thorough pre breaking and backing training, and the importance of early ridden training of the performance horse and its developmental stages up to the age of 12 years,with a view to it s long term soundness, and reaching its full potential.

its not about becoming unethical, and not riding horses at all, its about discovering the truths about riding and training, not extinguishing riding altogether, but opening up to truths about the mysterious relationship we have with these animals seeing new vistas of how they enhance our lives and their purpose in leading us to be better rider trainers , people, not just what they can do for us, ego, rosettes, but what they give us, what we can learn from them, if we let them lead us.

its not a dead end thing, more like realizing for me any way, what i am aiming for, personally

 

[milliepops]

i'm just not sure how any of the above means that people should simply never wear spurs though. I want things to be perfect and amazing and horses to have fabulous lives and be sound into old age, and for me, all of that is compatible with educated riders using spurs to give a subtle aid.

 

[ihatework]

You sound like a wonderful rider and trainer Tristar, I’d love to see some video of you riding one day, would you be prepared to share?

 

[stormox]

I do remember the photo's of Prince Harry and his polo pony with bleeding sides, and shortly after that Bertram Allen lost his class at Olympia because of a tiny mark - it seems the FEI is more on the ball than judges are in some other disciplines....

 

[Cortez]

you`ve been around a lot, seen a lot, why do you think the fei are so lax,?

Because they are somewhat of an old boys club, and quite political. They don't want to lift the lid as that will expose the whole can of worms and those worms (or the can?) involve some of the most influential (read: rich) people who support the sports. Where there is a lot of money, there will always be corruption and abuse.

IMO there needs to be a separate arm that is purely for the horse, whereas now it is for the riders/owners/trainers.

However, spurs are not the problem - the training of riders and the generally abysmal standard of riding is the problem.

 

[tristar]

You sound like a wonderful rider and trainer Tristar, I’d love to see some video of you riding one day, would you be prepared to share?

i don`t ride to prove anything , i ride because i found something in life that i love doing, being with horses and riding, and as a private person would not put up videos,

and sorry to say, but venture on here with great trepidation

i know i am not wonderful, in fact am certain of it, but thanks for the interest

 

[tristar]

Because they are somewhat of an old boys club, and quite political. They don't want to lift the lid as that will expose the whole can of worms and those worms (or the can?) involve some of the most influential (read: rich) people who support the sports. Where there is a lot of money, there will always be corruption and abuse.

IMO there needs to be a separate arm that is purely for the horse, whereas now it is for the riders/owners/trainers.

However, spurs are not the problem - the training of riders and the generally abysmal standard of riding is the problem.

thanks cortez, i thought the same about money, what a great idea about a separate arm purely for the horse

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm guessing that region 7 endurance and 'oil money' would be in that can.

I think I read (maybe on the COTH thread about these spurs) that a 20 year ban was handed out to an endurance rider this year.

ETA - https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll/20year-ban-for-equestrian-rider-in-horse-abuse-case/1860835

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I want things to change and progress, better understanding of the performance horse, appropriately bred horses for soundness, training techniques promoted by FEI BHS or similar, where there is an emphasis on thorough pre breaking and backing training, and the importance of early ridden training of the performance horse and its developmental stages up to the age of 12 years,with a view to it s long term soundness, and reaching its full potential.

its not about becoming unethical, and not riding horses at all, its about discovering the truths about riding and training, not extinguishing riding altogether, but opening up to truths about the mysterious relationship we have with these animals seeing new vistas of how they enhance our lives and their purpose in leading us to be better rider trainers , people, not just what they can do for us, ego, rosettes, but what they give us, what we can learn from them, if we let them lead us.

I am sure many share your ideals but they have nothing to do with correct use of spurs or any of the other tools we use to ride like bits. Personally I think people get far too hung up on those external issues - barefoot/bitless/bridleless/no whips or spurs or whatever. And lose sight of the fact that you can be a patient, horse centred, ethical trainer using shoes, bits and spurs or a rough, thoughtless, ego driven one using nothing.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm guessing that region 7 endurance and 'oil money' would be in that can.

I think I read (maybe on the COTH thread about these spurs) that a 20 year ban was handed out to an endurance rider this year.

ETA - https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll/20year-ban-for-equestrian-rider-in-horse-abuse-case/1860835

Yes finally the Fei have grown a pair, as an aside spurs and whips are not allowed in FEI endurance, also they have just brought in new tack rules.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

ETA I found this repeatedly at Mark Rashid clinics. People with the opportunity to learn from one of the world's most thoughtful and ethical riders/trainers spent their time instead grilling him on why he used bits and ignoring his answers - because a bit links the most sensitive part of the horse to the most sensitive part of the rider so allows for greater sensitivity, clarity, communication and connection. It was a master class in missing the point in my view

 

[JFTDWS]

Personally I think people get far too hung up on those external issues - barefoot/bitless/bridleless/no whips or spurs or whatever.

If you really work at it, you can inflict torturous psychological pressure on a horse without coming into contact with it in any physical manner.

It's not what you use, it's the way you use it.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

If you really work at it, you can inflict torturous psychological pressure on a horse without coming into contact with it in any physical manner.

It's not what you use, it's the way you use it.

Your post reminded me about that video of Linda Parelli, using a soft lead rope to "train" a poor, one-eyed horse. It's many years since I saw it, perhaps there was a carrot stick involved at some point as well, but as I remember it, it at least started with her only using the lead rope.

To me, a very sad, but good example of that it really isn't what you use, without how you use it.

 

[Cortez]

ETA I found this repeatedly at Mark Rashid clinics. People with the opportunity to learn from one of the world's most thoughtful and ethical riders/trainers spent their time instead grilling him on why he used bits and ignoring his answers - because a bit links the most sensitive part of the horse to the most sensitive part of the rider so allows for greater sensitivity, clarity, communication and connection. It was a master class in missing the point in my view

Ah yes, the Evangelicals: - "iron-free" acolytes that don't see the irony (see what I did there?) of riding their horses shoeless, bitless, treeless, spurless, and yet hauling seven bells on the poor things heads with thin knotted rope halters that cause pressure points over nerves (that's how they work), bouncing around on their spines bareback and generally continue to ride their horses badly in righteous ignorance whilst denigrating the "cruelty" of traditional trainers.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Your post reminded me about that video of Linda Parelli, using a soft lead rope to "train" a poor, one-eyed horse. It's many years since I saw it, perhaps there was a carrot stick involved at some point as well, but as I remember it, it at least started with her only using the lead rope.

To me, a very sad, but good example of that it really isn't what you use, without how you use it.

IIRC the horse had a rope halter on, so the leadrope clip was hanging off the halter's loop, this meant that she could clunk the clip into the horse's jaw.

 

[ester]

Yes MC you are correct. Re endurance there was an case last week where the complaint was upheld but ban length reduced

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yes MC you are correct. Re endurance there was an case last week where the complaint was upheld but ban length reduced

Urg... it's just awful to read that he said that chasing, kicking and hitting exhausted horses is commonplace and accepted in endurance.

RE L.Parelli and the blind horse - I forgot to say that i agree with FinnishLapphund. It is an excellent example of how everyday equipment can be used in a totally unacceptable way.

 

[Gingerwitch]

T

Your post reminded me about that video of Linda Parelli, using a soft lead rope to "train" a poor, one-eyed horse. It's many years since I saw it, perhaps there was a carrot stick involved at some point as well, but as I remember it, it at least started with her only using the lead rope.

To me, a very sad, but good example of that it really isn't what you use, without how you use it.

That footage still haunts me. That poor trusting animal without a clue what was being asked if him. The owner was almost frozen with not knowing what to do, I personally felt sorry for the owner too as they were obviously struggling with the situation. I really dislike that woman and her husband is he not the one that killed lord knows how n
many horses by keeping them from water to prove his training or some rubbish.

 

[Cortez]

T
That footage still haunts me. That poor trusting animal without a clue what was being asked if him. The owner was almost frozen with not knowing what to do, I personally felt sorry for the owner too as they were obviously struggling with the situation. I really dislike that woman and her husband is he not the one that killed lord knows how n
many horses by keeping them from water to prove his training or some rubbish.

I absolutely loath the Parelli cult, but I'm pretty sure he's never killed anything by withholding water. That's an old cowboy trick (and therefore "natural", apparently...) and not to be countenanced as a legitimate training method by any civilized person.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

IIRC the horse had a rope halter on, so the leadrope clip was hanging off the halter's loop, this meant that she could clunk the clip into the horse's jaw.

I didn't think about that, all I remember is this poor, confused horse, with a halter slipping a bit back and forth, and L.P. crazily wiggling, and waving the lead rope as if it was a snake attached to her hand, and she was terrified of snakes.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I absolutely loath the Parelli cult, but I'm pretty sure he's never killed anything by withholding water. That's an old cowboy trick (and therefore "natural", apparently...) and not to be countenanced as a legitimate training method by any civilized person.

I might've been wrong on who it was but I am pretty positive one of the "names " would only let horse's drink when he allowed, so if nervous or bottom of pecking order of the herd they did not get to drink, it then would sap their strength so even if they were desperate the poor mites could not fight their way through.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I absolutely loath the Parelli cult, but I'm pretty sure he's never killed anything by withholding water. That's an old cowboy trick (and therefore "natural", apparently...) and not to be countenanced as a legitimate training method by any civilized person.

I know this is just a forum thread and not an official conviction, so not evidence.

Quote is from the linked thread.

The email tells me that two years later on, matters at the trainer's ranch had gone from bad to worse:
" I received a call from a vet who had performed two necropsies on two horses that died that week. They died of renal failure due to water deprivation. There were 30 plus head of horses turned out in a large pasture with no water."

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...tion-as-a-training-tool.538255/#post-10738750

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...s-a-training-tool.538255/page-5#post-10741572

 

[Cortez]

I know this is just a forum thread and not an official conviction, so not evidence.

Quote is from the linked thread.


https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...tion-as-a-training-tool.538255/#post-10738750

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...s-a-training-tool.538255/page-5#post-10741572

Then they're even more despicable than I thought. Shameful.

 

[tristar]

I absolutely loath the Parelli cult, but I'm pretty sure he's never killed anything by withholding water. That's an old cowboy trick (and therefore "natural", apparently...) and not to be countenanced as a legitimate training method by any civilized person.

does that include withholding water from racehorses before a race, to the extent they gulp down loads after the race

 

[shortstuff99]

10 year ban for the use of electric spurs
https://www.worldofshowjumping.com/...oses-10-year-suspension-on-Andrew-Kocher.html

 

[milliepops]

The FEI are on a roll at the mo ?

 

[ycbm]

10 year ban for the use of electric spurs
https://www.worldofshowjumping.com/...oses-10-year-suspension-on-Andrew-Kocher.html

Serious penalties at last, brilliant. One of the wins for social media, it really balances out the bad stuff it's used for.

 

[shortstuff99]

Does seem that the FEI are taking this a lot more seriously now. This is really good for the sport and for welfare, and thus public perception.

 

[Mule]

That's great, a proper punishment.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Really happy to see the FEI taking this stuff seriously.

What a moron. Hope it was worth it (not).