'Equestrian sports are cruel"

[southerncomfort]

Opinion piece on the i webpage

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/equestr...l-cruelty-horses-banned-from-olympics-1135216

 

[milliepops]

okaaaaay then.
there are so many problems with that article.
My dad thinks dressage is cruel, despite never having watched any dressage we have an unspoken agreement to just not talk about it.

Let’s be real: dressage is the equivalent of breaking a horse’s spirit to convince it to perform unnatural tricks for humans.

i could not disagree with this more strongly. you can tell the ones with the broken spirits and they aren't the ones that win medals these days.

 

[southerncomfort]

The author's wiki entry is interesting.

 

[The Bouncing Bog Trotter]

Sadly it is subject that is going to gain more momentum as time progresses

 

[Zuzan]

So many sweeping statements ... someone should hire him as a yard hand as evidently sweeping is one of his strong points.

The author's wiki entry is interesting.

Likewise his twitter profile..

 

[piebaldproblems]

Look, I'm the first to start criticising racing, dressage, the lot of it, but what I find especially funny about his article is the subheading. "In my experience, ..." what experience, Mr. Newkey-Burden? You haven't mentioned working at a single racing yard. Sure, there are distressed horses at your horse sanctuary but isn't the whole point of the sanctuary that you're the ones taking in distressed animals?

 

[milliepops]

The author's wiki entry is interesting.

Oh yeah. Writing his own positive reviews for his books on amazon being one small nugget ??

 

[CanteringCarrot]

They can be cruel. Are they cruel? Not always.

 

[mariew]

Sadly it is subject that is going to gain more momentum as time progresses

Echo this, sadly. But what a rubbish article, lots of snatched bits just to write some sensationalise an article. However time and time again it is shown that people look for these kind of articles rather than a balanced or true view just to justify their thoughts on whatever.

Interesting that he picked dressage rather than jumping which has just as bad examples.

. If the hardcore vegans and animal activists got their way, they would be responsible for a massive livestock and equine cull/natural die out Farmers are not going to keep herds of hundreds of animals just for fun. Just like I am not sure I would like to own a big horse that I could never ride. I wish they would put as much energy into saving wild animals as preventing the death of livestock etc.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

However time and time again it is shown that people look for these kind of articles rather than a balanced or true view just to justify their thoughts on whatever.

This is so sadly true. Usually it is because it fits their narrative/agenda. Or to justify, as you said.

 

[TPO]

The journalist uses a lot of evocative language and sensational but he's not wrong is he?

The things he writes have/do happen and are often discussed on here.

It's strange to me that he's focused solely on dressage but even on here blue tongue and rollkur have been discussed at length. I've forgotten his name but that show jumper was just done for using an electric shock contraption. If that's what he was willing to do in public the mind boggles about his behind the scenes practises.

That Brazilian showjumping who was filmed mistreating the poor Shetland.

Spurs on bad legs, severe bits and nosebands on the end of bad hands, tying shut mouths, asking questions that horses haven't been trained to know the answers too. There are ethical questions everywhere that people don't want to tackle.

Again I'm surprised that he has solely went after dressage when a horse literally died because of doing XC at the Olympics.

Prior to the Olympics the inclusion of horses was discussed on here. The journalist has used more provocative language but it seems like hackles are up because an "outsider" is questioning "our" sport. The inclusion of horses was batted about civilly on here and it was said how bad a hose death would be. There was one so... the saving grace, if you could call it that, was that the round and accident/injury didn't appear to have been shown anywhere.

At the time when rollkur/blue tongue was at the fore it was bemoaned that this didn't receive more attention and that, until the ban, stewards weren't being proactive enough and blind eyes were turned behind the scenes. Now a light is being shone on "horse things" it doesn't appear to be well received ?

The thing is, IMO, what we do for pleasure isn't great for the horse in any sphere. As soon as we clamber on we compromise them. Some people acknowledge that and with that awareness do the best that they can to mitigate that. Others blindly deny the affect that we have on horses and live in some sort of cuckoo land. Then there are those oblivious to everything other than their own enjoyment (the disconnect thread?).

I think it's a good thing to make people involved with horses to confront the uncomfortable truths. Ultimately we can only do the best we can and when we know better do better.

 

[Zuzan]

The journalist uses a lot of evocative language and sensational but he's not wrong is he?

The things he writes have/do happen and are often discussed on here. ................................

Prior to the Olympics the inclusion of horses was discussed on here. The journalist has used more provocative language but it seems like hackles are up because an "outsider" is questioning "our" sport. ................

I think it's a good thing to make people involved with horses to confront the uncomfortable truths. Ultimately we can only do the best we can and when we know better do better.

yes I agree with these points .. but what I hate about articles like this are the sweeping statements and sensationalist approach..

I also think there is something about equine expert opinion on welfare.. so often we see judges being blind to bad practice that compromises welfare or even equestrian bodies ignoring or brushing under the carpet things they would rather not deal with.. these are supposed be experts.. ignoring welfare issues undermines their standing both within the equestrian world but also to those who look in on it at specific times ... like the Olympics..

It's time the equestrian world really got on board with the science and evidence about equine behaviour and what constitutes welfare for a horse rather than human convenience.

 

[milliepops]

I can't disagree with any of that TPO but my beef with the article is the banging on about things that are literally banned by governing bodies as though they are condoned, and the conflation of racing with dressage. If you want to mount an argument it has to be informed and stack up in order to be credible IMO.

 

[janietee_5]

What a load of sensationalist garbage. The things he mentions are practised by a very, very small minority of less successful riders. True dressage involves the scales of training that help the horse (and rider) become more supple and attain the higher standards. Forcing a horse to do something for the majority of riders never ends well for horse or rider. And the majority of racehorses are treated like royalty and greatly loved by the trainers, jockeys, lads and lasses who look after them. Sadly most people who read this article will not understand this.

 

[smolmaus]

Article is badly written, clearly not very well researched and yeah, just an opinion piece from someone who knows just enough to think they know everything. Hope he enjoys his... 47 likes on twitter.

Abuses in the racing industry or dressage or showjumping are worth discussing but not with this guy.

 

[TPO]

I can't disagree with any of that TPO but my beef with the article is the banging on about things that are literally banned by governing bodies as though they are condoned, and the conflation of racing with dressage. If you want to mount an argument it has to be informed and stack up in order to be credible IMO.

Oh I agree but he's writing to attract clicks and something that will grab Joe Bloggs iykwim.

But can you see a horse publication writing something like this (but you know, better)? Any articles about cruelty are always finger pointing at someone else or a "one of" incident.

It's fine saying, well actually it's not fine at all, that's its "only" a small number of people but that has a wider reach. Again its been discussed on here about your average Joe Bloggs looking for short cuts and/or badly copying what they think that the pros are doing.

A lot of us are aware of things that happen behind closed doors and there are often comments made on here about respecting curtains pros successes but "I'd never send a horse to them".

Sometimes it has to be an external agency that brings about change. A bit of a reach but it was American Gymnastics that blew the doors open about the abuse despite pros and the people in charge knowing about it.

Danny Emerson has posted quite a few interesting posts about eventing off the back of the Olympics on his Tamarack Hill Farm Facebook page. He has eons of experience and even he is bemoaning the resistance put up when trying to make eventing safer and stop horse and rider deaths. In no other Olympic sport would it be accepted that a participant was killed or accept a horse death because "it could have happened in the paddock" or "the horse doing what it loved" ???

 

[milliepops]

I agree no horse mag would publish anything like that and we're all indoctrinated to see a lot of stuff we do as totally normal when it's kinda extraordinary.

The problem is (and I say this as a lifelong veggie) the militant vegans don't mount a sensible argument that anyone will engage with. It's too easy to brush a rubbish article like that to one side. If you want to effect change you have to take people with you. I'd totally dismiss him as an individual. Someone who could get their facts right might be a different matter.

 

[TPO]

I agree no horse mag would publish anything like that and we're all indoctrinated to see a lot of stuff we do as totally normal when it's kinda extraordinary.

The problem is (and I say this as a lifelong veggie) the militant vegans don't mount a sensible argument that anyone will engage with. It's too easy to brush a rubbish article like that to one side. If you want to effect change you have to take people with you. I'd totally dismiss him as an individual. Someone who could get their facts right might be a different matter.

100% agree

For a forum of supposed horse lovers the knee jerk reaction has been to shut down an uncomfortable discussion down and minimise the claims.

We like horses and enjoy how we choose to spend time with them. We don't want anyone, especially an outsider, to make us feel quilts about that ?

 

[Zuzan]

....... I'd totally dismiss him as an individual. Someone who could get their facts right might be a different matter.

Ah but people like him feed off conflict .. this isn't about changing the equestrian world to adopt vegan saddles ... it is about click bait.

100% agree

For a forum of supposed horse lovers the knee jerk reaction has been to shut down an uncomfortable discussion down and minimise the claims.

We like horses and enjoy how we choose to spend time with them. We don't want anyone, especially an outsider, to make us feel quilts about that ?

I resent an evident censationalist and someone so ignorant of the real issues making statements that do not inform or educate what is good practice and what constitutes a welfare issue .. His strategy isn't to effect change in the equestrian world but to simply incite public opinion against anyone with anything to do with horses. This type of person is as a dangerous populist.

 

[TPO]

Ah but people like him feed off conflict .. this isn't about changing the equestrian world to adopt vegan saddles ... it is about click bait.


I resent an evident censationalist and someone so ignorant of the real issues making statements that do not inform or educate what is good practice and what constitutes a welfare issue .. His strategy isn't to effect change in the equestrian world but to simply incite public opinion against anyone with anything to do with horses. This type of person is as a dangerous populist.

He might not have gone about it in a way that you consider appropriate but where are the false statements?

What are the "real issues"? The cruelties that he writes about have and do happen. There is evidence of all that he mentions.

I'm more upset that there is such a plethora of cruelties to choose from rather than how a singular journalist has gone about it.

ETA he doesn't write about his intentions other than to make the reader aware of what has happened. He writes that he volunteers with horses so he is a fan of them on some level. I just see someone using their platform for something that they care about. It's a bit of a leap from what he's written to minimise it by mocking it was comparisons to making people use "vegan saddles".

It's so strange to me to have had recent threads about horse sports in the Olympics, where flying horses was also brought up, were discussed and how there is a lack of standards/knowledge/care on the Disconnect thread amongst the numerous welfare and training threads that have been on here during my 17yrs on here yet an "outsider" puts real events out in the open and it's like the walls come up

 

[milliepops]

I'd consider this a false statement

Some used spurs to cut the skin of the horses

That's not what spurs are *used* for
It can happen accidentally which is different.
I just can't take his article seriously with this gubbins in it though I have some sympathy with the pov.

To me it's no wonder the defenses go up when he can't get basic facts right.

 

[TPO]

I'd consider this a false statement



That's not what spurs are *used* for
It can happen accidentally which is different.
I just can't take his article seriously with this gubbins in it though I have some sympathy with the pov.

I agree that's not what spurs are supposed to be *used* for but that is what *some* have used them for. Some also appear to electrify them?

On the disconnect thread* there was a post about a trainer losing their temper with a horse and I think (could be wrinf) that the trainer was wearing spurs. They spun the horse using harsh hand and leg. Now I'm sure that trainer didn't set out with the sole aim "to cut the skin of the horses" but those kind of actions make it a real possibility.

* I re read and the post says "jabbing" in the ribs so solely my assumption that jabbing was a movement with a spurs rather than a heel.

I have seen people purposely use spurs and be proud of the marks that they left because the horse needed taught a lesson.

We all hopefully know that spurs are supposed to be used to refine the aids but we also know that isn't the only way that they are used either purposely or through a lack of skill/competence. If any article makes people review thr equipment that they use and their ability to use it surely that's a good thing?

No one can deny that spurs can tear skin. They didn't invent belly bands for nothing sadly

The same logic can be applied to most pieces of equipment I'd imagine; bits, noseband, "training aids"...

 

[milliepops]

But at the Olympics, which the article is targeting, its madness to say people use spurs to cut horses, because under fei rules blood on the flank = elimination no ifs, no buts.

So It doesn't stack up
Riders prepping for the Olympics would be idiotic to let a spur mark a horse because then it would be more likely to happen in the medal-deciding ring.

I'm not denying there are truly awful examples but i still think if you want to do anything more than whip up hysteria amongst uninformed people you need to be accurate and language is important in any argument.

 

[TPO]

I semi agree ?

Obviously I agree about the blood rule at FEI. So no one is going to purposely mark a horse on the run up to competition or in the ring.

I *think* that the journalist is trying to make a tie to the Olympics to make it current for the "uninformed" Joe Bloggs. Some of his links in doing that might be a bit of a reach

Maybe some hysteria does need to be whipped up to ...oh pants, what's the word?...to emm, like to instigate change?

Perhaps horse sports do have to put under a public microscope?

 

[piebaldproblems]

For a forum of supposed horse lovers the knee jerk reaction has been to shut down an uncomfortable discussion down and minimise the claims.

Most of the stuff he mentions, I believe I’ve heard discussed on this forum.

This kind of sensationalist article does nothing for the horses, or for those trying to improve the sport. It only provides fodder for the very radical animal rights activists to dismiss the whole sport as abuse, and for the more traditionalist horsey people to dismiss all those that criticise as insane vegans.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Whispers... I can recall a thread on here several years ago about a certain showjumper...

I think sj looks worse due to all the metal work and leather work about the horses face. I'm not saying they should use just a snaffle but it looks a bit grim.
It's the sport that makes me wonder most what goes on behind closed doors...

 

[Sandstone1]

The hard fact for most of us that have kept and ridden horses is that horses are sometimes caused pain and distress in the name of sport. I dont think any one of us if we are honest with ourselves have never caused some sort of distress to a horse because we want to ride it.
I would like to think that we minimise that distress though correct training but lets face it, we all know that there is abuse in the horse world and its right that it should be closely monitored.

 

[Winters100]

In my opinion everything about keeping animals can be cruel, but of course it is not possible to make the life of an animal perfect, even those kept only as pets.

I use collars on my dogs. Is it cruel to put something around their neck and hold on to it? I am sure that one could make an argument that it is, and that the dog should be free at all times as they would be in the wild. Of course we then have to accept the fact that animals in the wild also do not have perfect lives, they routinely die of injuries and diseases that we would prevent or treat, and often suffer long slow deaths when we would put them to sleep quickly and with minimal discomfort. And of course we do live in a society, if my dogs or horses run free without constraint they can cause injury or death to other animals or to people.

Cats live in cities confined to apartments. Is it cruel? Should they be free to run outside with all the risks that entails, or perhaps those who live in cities should not keep cats? I don't know enough about this species to have an opinion, but I am sure than many people have strong views on this.

Is it cruel to ride my horses? Maybe yes, but if I did not ride good-doer his food would have to be restricted to tiny amounts. Is transporting them cruel? I am sure that they would prefer to be in the paddock, but if they are not used to transport what do I do if they need to be moved to receive medical treatment?

The fact that relatively few people own horses, compared to cats for example, makes it an easy target. Fishing, on the face of it, seems pretty barbaric, but you rarely read criticism of it. I suppose partly because of the number of participants, and partly because fish are not seen as 'cute'.

The reality is that if we were to insist on the highest standards of welfare and care for animals there would be far fewer horses, dogs and cats around. Maybe this is desirable, I don't know, but on a personal level I am aware that the lives of my animals are not perfect, but I do think that they have lives worth living.

 

[mariew]

You know I was thinking about his comment on horses travelling far for the Olympics. I'm not saying he hasn't got a point, we all know how much a lot of horses don't like being travelled and they haven't got a choice.

However as a follow on, I wonder what he would consider acceptable travel times for a horse. I am guessing the answer would take out most international competing and movement of horses such as importing from the continent or even Ireland as the lorry journeys are not short. Maybe even moving horses from the far south to the far north of the country. All these things happen far more often than the Olympics every 4 years.

 

[oldie48]

You know I was thinking about his comment on horses travelling far for the Olympics. I'm not saying he hasn't got a point, we all know how much a lot of horses don't like being travelled and they haven't got a choice.

However as a follow on, I wonder what he would consider acceptable travel times for a horse. I am guessing the answer would take out most international competing and movement of horses such as importing from the continent or even Ireland as the lorry journeys are not short. Maybe even moving horses from the far south to the far north of the country. All these things happen far more often than the Olympics every 4 years.

Knowing someone who travels horses on a regular basis both by lorry and by air, I think the horses cope better than the humans, if they didn't cope well they would be pretty useless as a top class competitor's horse. Sadly there are cruel people in all spheres but they are a small minority and need to be called out but fgs let's not tar everyone with the same brush!
I don't contribute to animal charities but I do make regular donations to several children's charities. The number of children being abused physically and emotionally is a huge problem and goes on under our noses largely unchecked and unreported. Overweight children fed on rubbish high sugar diets heading for long term health problems, sat in front of screens for hours on end with no proper outside exercise, poorly trained, no routine, schooled not according to their natural abilities but made to fit in to what we deem is correct ect etc. Children don't have a choice either and are at the mercy of their parents who generally have absolutely no experience when they have the first. I could go on but I think you get my drift. I'd rather be a horse than a child in some families!