'Equestrian sports are cruel"

[paddy555]

I am all for exposing and open discussion of abuse and welfare. However it has to be informed and level headed. That article is neither informed or level headed.

horse riders are a minority and equestrian sport most certainly is a minority sport ... But being a minority doesn't mean you are not priveleged .. Part of the reason Hitler was able to turn society against the Jews was a perception of their privelege and wealth .. that is still very apparent today.

I find it quite intersting that you are evidently attempting to turn my accusation of emotive language back on me. But I guess if you are defending piece like that article then I shouldn't expect anything else.

I am not defending the article. I cannot see anything to defend or to attack.

He is saying it like he believes it is. I find a reasonable amount of truth in what he is saying. End of. I had my view about flying out horses to the Olympics and WEG etc long before I read that article.

I really cannot see parallels between that article and the rather more serious situation of Hitler and the Jews. There are a lot of aspects of horse welfare and the horse industry that could do with scrutiny.

Not sure why you are getting so excited about the article. I don't think it merits that much excitement.

 

[Caol Ila]

Godwin's Law is like gravity -- inevitable.

 

[paddy555]

Godwin's Law is like gravity -- inevitable.

I'm not sure why Zuzan felt the need to include it.

 

[Winters100]

Sometimes it seems to be the case that people promote climate change as long as it doesn't affect their own foreign holiday, their own horsebox trip to an event or their own Mexican avocado. In which case lets all forget climate change and the massive amounts it is going to cost and carry on with our old lives. What does it really matter.

I so agree with this, and to be honest I too am guilty of it. I try very hard in some areas (growing my own vegetables, buying the rest locally grown in season, not using plastic bags etc), but if I am honest there are big parts of our lives where we could reduce our impact a lot IF we were willing to make sacrifices. I justify driving a big car because there are 5 of us, but how many trips are unnecessary, and how often do I drive alone? I also transported my horses 5 hours each way last week, sure it was fun, but I have to be honest that it was not at all necessary. But then I get to things like the children being ferried around for music lessons, sports practices etc - again not really necessary, but I believe important.

The truth is that the only way to drastically reduce these activities is to lower the standard of living for the vast majority, to make foreign holidays something that us ordinary people can afford only every few years, to make goods more expensive etc, and this does not sit well with most, me included.

 

[DabDab]

The environmental aspect is a bit of a red herring because of the context in which it is happening.

Tbh I'm operating on the assumption that in 10-15 years' time, private horse ownership won't really be feasible anymore, and therefore the horses I have now are the last I will have. We are heading towards an environmental cliff edge, we've known it for decades and done precious little and we (UK and most other countries) continue to vote in gvts who intend to keep doing very little. So in not very many years time we will be faced with suddenly having to change very very quickly.

The article is terrible, just a really scatty, badly written piece. Equestrian sport and dressage in particular do have an image problem in the outside world and equestrian industry/organisations have been singularly useless at dealing with it. But I don't think this guy's piece is going to make much difference to that.

 

[paddy555]

The thing is, IMO, what we do for pleasure isn't great for the horse in any sphere.

possibly like this sort of thing? Not the coach punching the horse although if I owned a horse I wouldn't be too keen on a stranger punching it when it was clearly very upset.

The handling of the horse by the rider. The horse was extremely upset. Her whip was used. Maybe acceptable on a horse taking the piss but most definitely not on such an upset animal. The horse collided with a jump and from picture no. 5 the horse does not look to be a very happy bunny.

this is the face of equestrianism ie the Olympic games that the public see and this is very clearly abuse and a total disregard for t he welfare of the horse. No idea why people are objecting to the original article in this post. Seems it didn't go far enough! This horse should never have been put in that position in the first place.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...ach-kicked-Tokyo-Olympics-PUNCHING-horse.html

 

[milliepops]

that rider had completely lost her composure from the start. before the round even started

 

[The Bouncing Bog Trotter]

A quick glance at the comments on social media and online news outlets tells us that there is a proportion of society who feel that horse sport is wrong, that deriving pleasure from something that 'uses' an animal is wrong, that horse sport and horse riding should be banned and that equestrianism is exploiting equines. The pentathlon issue is serving to reinforce those views.

As responsible horse owners we need to ensure that our actions can stand the scrutiny of those that do not fully understand how we 'do' things and we need to ensure that we have the empathy to understand how our actions are perceived by those outside our sport. Equine cruelty has many forms but the visual ones to the majority of the non horsey public is the horse strapped down with metal in its mouth, being forced to 'dance' or jump fences that are huge, being whipped or kicked by a rider wearing spurs, causing them on occasion to lose their life, rather than the elderly, overweight pony suffering in a field.

 

[paddy555]

that rider had completely lost her composure from the start. before the round even started

yes that is pretty obvious however if that is an excuse it doesn't address the question of the welfare and abuse of that horse does it?
The rider (the coach, the team and the horse's owner) put the horse in that position for her own aim in trying to win that event. For the amusement of the audience (worldwide as well as at the games)



For the audience who will read the original journalists article in this thread it most certainly will not be acceptable. It will only give fuel to his fire.

 

[paddy555]

As responsible horse owners we need to ensure that our actions can stand the scrutiny of those that do not fully understand how we 'do' things and we need to ensure that we have the empathy to understand how our actions are perceived by those outside our sport.

well this rider(plus the coach) seems to have somewhat failed in that respect with a global audience.

 

[milliepops]

yes that is pretty obvious however if that is an excuse it doesn't address the question of the welfare and abuse of that horse does it?
The rider (the coach, the team and the horse's owner) put the horse in that position for her own aim in trying to win that event. For the amusement of the audience (worldwide as well as at the games)



For the audience who will read the original journalists article in this thread it most certainly will not be acceptable. It will only give fuel to his fire.

I wasn't saying anything about excusing any of it. just that her problems were greater than what happened in the ring. Anyone who loses it like that when on a horse is going to have a bad ride, pentathlete or not, abusive coach or not, olympic games or not.all the pillocks on social media saying the horse cost her a medal need to understand that. that's all.

 

[paddy555]

I wasn't saying anything about excusing any of it. just that her problems were greater than what happened in the ring. Anyone who loses it like that when on a horse is going to have a bad ride, pentathlete or not, abusive coach or not, olympic games or not.all the pillocks on social media saying the horse cost her a medal need to understand that. that's all.

that doesn't address the point which is horse welfare. Her problems are irrelevant, whether she has a bad ride is irrelevant as is whether the horse cost her a gold medal. All that matters it the abuse the horse suffered in that situation.

I don't understand why, long before the horse got into a rapidly worsening situation, someone either her or an official didn't pull the plug on it and get her off the horse for it's own sake.

There are no excuses. This thread is called "are equestrian sports cruel" and, in this particular instance, the answer is yes.

If you were in a competition would you allow someone to thump one of your horses and ride it in that way?

 

[milliepops]

that doesn't address the point which is horse welfare. Her problems are irrelevant, whether she has a bad ride is irrelevant as is whether the horse cost her a gold medal. All that matters it the abuse the horse suffered in that situation.

I don't understand why, long before the horse got into a rapidly worsening situation, someone either her or an official didn't pull the plug on it and get her off the horse for it's own sake.

There are no excuses. This thread is called "are equestrian sports cruel" and, in this particular instance, the answer is yes.

If you were in a competition would you allow someone to thump one of your horses and ride it in that way?

no of course not. i wasn't addressing horse welfare. i was making a side point that she appeared to be unsuitable for the sport in the first place, due to being unable to control her emotions. although she appears to be an experienced pentathlete so presumably that hasn't always been a problem. it was very unpleasant viewing. in addition the MP sport seems to have its own rules which are nothing to do with the main equestrian bodies and i think that should be changed to bring the abuse of the horse etc elements within the same umbrella as all the others.

 

[SO1]

TBF if the journalist looked on the forum he would see a lot of questions about ill or injured horses, people struggling to find suitable places to keep their horses, people asking for advice to try and get their horses to do things perhaps the horses don't want to do, people struggling with horses behaviour.

How many horse really are kept in optimum conditions, doing activities they want to do, ridden beautifully and have no ailments that are not manmade or as a result of the way we keep them. Some people struggle to afford vet bills for gold standard care and treatment.

I think we are perhaps blinded to the issue that our horses were primarily bought for our pleasure and many of them even if they are absolutely loved are not living their best lives. An outsider perhaps can see this. It is not just competition horses at the Olympics it is seen throughout the equine industry. What has it taken to get those top equine athletes to the Olympics, how will they be treated once they are no longer competitive?

I recognise that my pony is not living the best possible life he could do. Currently on box rest for a tendon injury. Has to wear a grazing muzzle most of the year and be exercised more than he would like to be to control his weight as the local yards all have rich grass. I am not a very talented rider. I have to be a bit careful with finances so he can't have regular massages, physio and the best of everything. His situation is not perfect there will be times when he is doing things he does not want to do. He doesn't have the best life but not the worst life either. When not injured he gets to go in the field with friends every day, he gets a variety of exercise, as I am not a very good rider there is not so much pressure to compete or train intensively. His stable is clean, he has enough to eat, good rugs in winter, and lots of cuddles and attention. I have had him for 14 years and at 19 hopefully he will live out his days with me.

What is the perfect life for a horse and should we be realistic and open in knowing very few people can provide that, rather than hiding behind rose tinted spectacles and pretending to outsiders that everything is ok. Yes highlight the positive things we do to make their working life as good as possible but realise that this comes at a cost and that like all employers we may be able to treat these workers better but ultimately most horses are doing a job.

We can also see how we can improve the lives of the youngstock and retired in the same ways as we may be able to treat our children and old folk better.

 

[catkin]

yes that is pretty obvious however if that is an excuse it doesn't address the question of the welfare and abuse of that horse does it?
The rider (the coach, the team and the horse's owner) put the horse in that position for her own aim in trying to win that event. For the amusement of the audience (worldwide as well as at the games)



For the audience who will read the original journalists article in this thread it most certainly will not be acceptable. It will only give fuel to his fire.

Not just the 'general public's perceptions - I would be described as part of the equestrian world and I find the Modern Pentathlon jumping phase extremely uncomfortable to watch.
It is well past time that the sport was updated - there must be an alternative test that could take the place of the jumping, maybe a cyclocross course or orienteering. ( It would also take away any excuses of the draw for a horse making the test a matter of fortune rather than the athletes skill ? )

 

[Reacher]

possibly like this sort of thing? Not the coach punching the horse although if I owned a horse I wouldn't be too keen on a stranger punching it when it was clearly very upset.

The handling of the horse by the rider. The horse was extremely upset. Her whip was used. Maybe acceptable on a horse taking the piss but most definitely not on such an upset animal. The horse collided with a jump and from picture no. 5 the horse does not look to be a very happy bunny.

this is the face of equestrianism ie the Olympic games that the public see and this is very clearly abuse and a total disregard for t he welfare of the horse. No idea why people are objecting to the original article in this post. Seems it didn't go far enough! This horse should never have been put in that position in the first place.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...ach-kicked-Tokyo-Olympics-PUNCHING-horse.html

From what little I know the modern pentathlon does not seem fair on the horses putting someone who is not a SJ pro on a strange horse and expecting it to jump those jumps (1.20 ?) - it sounds like there were a lot of ugly rounds

 

[SantaVera]

that doesn't address the point which is horse welfare. Her problems are irrelevant, whether she has a bad ride is irrelevant as is whether the horse cost her a gold medal. All that matters it the abuse the horse suffered in that situation.

I don't understand why, long before the horse got into a rapidly worsening situation, someone either her or an official didn't pull the plug on it and get her off the horse for it's own sake.

There are no excuses. This thread is called "are equestrian sports cruel" and, in this particular instance, the answer is yes.

If you were in a competition would you allow someone to thump one of your horses and ride it in that way?

I completely agree with you.

 

[SantaVera]

Not just the 'general public's perceptions - I would be described as part of the equestrian world and I find the Modern Pentathlon jumping phase extremely uncomfortable to watch.
It is well past time that the sport was updated - there must be an alternative test that could take the place of the jumping, maybe a cyclocross course or orienteering. ( It would also take away any excuses of the draw for a horse making the test a matter of fortune rather than the athletes skill ? )

exactly what me and my OH were saying yesterday. Get rid of the horse element and do something else orienteering seems a good option.