'Equestrian sports are cruel"

mariew

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Knowing someone who travels horses on a regular basis both by lorry and by air, I think the horses cope better than the humans, if they didn't cope well they would be pretty useless as a top class competitor's horse. Sadly there are cruel people in all spheres but they are a small minority and need to be called out but fgs let's not tar everyone with the same brush!

This wouldn't make good sensationalist news though that appeals to those who thinks anything horse riding is bad. I suspect he would still argue horses don't have a say in the matter.

I agree with those who said the article is probably not aimed for those involved in horses. (I was reflecting on the author's thought process. Not mine.)
 

milliepops

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I *think* that the journalist is trying to make a tie to the Olympics to make it current for the "uninformed" Joe Bloggs. Some of his links in doing that might be a bit of a reach

Maybe some hysteria does need to be whipped up to ...oh pants, what's the word?...to emm, like to instigate change?

Perhaps horse sports do have to put under a public microscope?

Personally i support any reasonable move to improve horse welfare in any way, and I'm happy for equestrian sports to be examined in public, but what I'm not OK with is people with an agenda that is much wider than just horse riding to be mounting hyperbolic arguments dragging in false or irrelevant stuff to try and get an emotional response.

that will only appeal to the kind of people who already feel that horse sport is wrong.

if you want to drive change you have to get purchase with the people who participate or support the sport as it currently exists. or those thinking about starting to compete. and just blowing up with this hysteria is a surefire way to turn people off, you just look like an extremist nutter vegan and get dismissed. it's pointless.

You know I was thinking about his comment on horses travelling far for the Olympics. I'm not saying he hasn't got a point, we all know how much a lot of horses don't like being travelled and they haven't got a choice.

However as a follow on, I wonder what he would consider acceptable travel times for a horse. I am guessing the answer would take out most international competing and movement of horses such as importing from the continent or even Ireland as the lorry journeys are not short. Maybe even moving horses from the far south to the far north of the country. All these things happen far more often than the Olympics every 4 years.

i'd imagine he would think all transport of horses for sport is wrong. I think flying horses is a big ask and it's an amazing testament to what they will accept, horses are amazing in their ability to learn and trust/accept things.
I do think it's OK to fly them, there are people on this forum that have flown horses across the world when they've moved and no one says oh that's totally wrong... it's either OK or it's not IMO and provided they are properly monitored and given appropriate care in transit I'm alright with that whatever the purpose.

(I'm not OK with live flight for slaughter, but those horses don't meet the criteria of getting appropriate care!)
 

Winters100

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Regarding flying horses I know someone who last year flew 2 retired horses back from Spain. They had been living there, and when they moved they left the horses in a retirement livery monitored by a friend. When their friend also left they did not want to leave the horses without someone supervising the livery, and as they felt that it was a long time for older horses to stand on a truck they opted to fly them back. Cost them a lot of money, and for sure they were not doing this as a selfish act, since neither horse is ridden or used in any way. Personally I thought that this was fantastic. Maybe the flight was not the best day of their lives, but the horses are now living a great life, in the field dawn to dusk, groomed and fussed every day, and the only 'work' they get is to be hand walked by their owner or her daughter. Both horses in their 20s and they arrived looking just fine, so I am not sure that flying is as hard on them as one might imagine.
 

cauda equina

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Whenever humans interact with any other species, or with other humans, there is the potential for cruelty

That article is ostensibly about the current Olympic dressage but takes a scattergun approach to animal welfare - bringing in racing, circus animals, and practices which are already illegal
If the case against Olympic dressage were compelling, why muddy the waters with this other stuff? I suspect the writer knows his arguments regarding it are weak
 

tristar

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Regarding flying horses I know someone who last year flew 2 retired horses back from Spain. They had been living there, and when they moved they left the horses in a retirement livery monitored by a friend. When their friend also left they did not want to leave the horses without someone supervising the livery, and as they felt that it was a long time for older horses to stand on a truck they opted to fly them back. Cost them a lot of money, and for sure they were not doing this as a selfish act, since neither horse is ridden or used in any way. Personally I thought that this was fantastic. Maybe the flight was not the best day of their lives, but the horses are now living a great life, in the field dawn to dusk, groomed and fussed every day, and the only 'work' they get is to be hand walked by their owner or her daughter. Both horses in their 20s and they arrived looking just fine, so I am not sure that flying is as hard on them as one might imagine.



that surely is a great thing they did

why is the emphasis on poor horse for being ridden and not on how we can do our best for our horses when we ride and train them, why waste half the day rambling on about whats supposedly wrong when the energy and time would be better spent with the horses

i think its almost funny when people talk through their arsxholes about horses, it shows a limited experience of how horses benefit from interacting with humans, how for horses it widens life experience, and how many horses who live into old age do so because they worked, and how working contributed to them staying sound

its all coming from the wrong angle, not about whats wrong , we all know whats not good, its about whats right and how to achieve that, but perhaps that takes more effort!
 

littleshetland

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Article is badly written, clearly not very well researched and yeah, just an opinion piece from someone who knows just enough to think they know everything. Hope he enjoys his... 47 likes on twitter.

Abuses in the racing industry or dressage or showjumping are worth discussing but not with this guy.
Perhaps he is exactly the sort of guy we should be discussing this subject with? He obviously has some knowledge...but , as they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. By denigrating this mans opinion, we achieve nothing. Perhaps by engaging with people like him and those of a similar opinion, as people with knowledge of horse sport, we should try to enlighten and educate where we can. With regards to his opinions on circus and animals for slaughter....I have to agree with him.
 

southerncomfort

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The journalist uses a lot of evocative language and sensational but he's not wrong is he?

The things he writes have/do happen and are often discussed on here.

It's strange to me that he's focused solely on dressage but even on here blue tongue and rollkur have been discussed at length. I've forgotten his name but that show jumper was just done for using an electric shock contraption. If that's what he was willing to do in public the mind boggles about his behind the scenes practises.

That Brazilian showjumping who was filmed mistreating the poor Shetland.

Spurs on bad legs, severe bits and nosebands on the end of bad hands, tying shut mouths, asking questions that horses haven't been trained to know the answers too. There are ethical questions everywhere that people don't want to tackle.

Again I'm surprised that he has solely went after dressage when a horse literally died because of doing XC at the Olympics.

Prior to the Olympics the inclusion of horses was discussed on here. The journalist has used more provocative language but it seems like hackles are up because an "outsider" is questioning "our" sport. The inclusion of horses was batted about civilly on here and it was said how bad a hose death would be. There was one so... the saving grace, if you could call it that, was that the round and accident/injury didn't appear to have been shown anywhere.

At the time when rollkur/blue tongue was at the fore it was bemoaned that this didn't receive more attention and that, until the ban, stewards weren't being proactive enough and blind eyes were turned behind the scenes. Now a light is being shone on "horse things" it doesn't appear to be well received ?

The thing is, IMO, what we do for pleasure isn't great for the horse in any sphere. As soon as we clamber on we compromise them. Some people acknowledge that and with that awareness do the best that they can to mitigate that. Others blindly deny the affect that we have on horses and live in some sort of cuckoo land. Then there are those oblivious to everything other than their own enjoyment (the disconnect thread?).

I think it's a good thing to make people involved with horses to confront the uncomfortable truths. Ultimately we can only do the best we can and when we know better do better.

I agree with a lot of what you say, and scrutiny of equestrian sports is good if it leads to improvements in the lives of competition horses.

I, too have a lot of moral and ethical debates with myself about riding and ultimately i think a true horseman/woman should ensure that the horse finds its job as interesting and enjoyable as the rider does. How you evaluate that is a whole other thread.

My issue with the article is that it is incredibly one sided and sensationalist, and doesn't talk about the many improvements that have happened in the industry or how many competition horses now have turnout etc. and how stewards seem at last to be taking their jobs seriously.

Ultimately, I do think that their is still a lot to be done and it's not a bad thing to be having these conversations and that we keep questioning whether more needs to be done to improve the physical and mental welfare of horses at all levels of competition.
 

paddy555

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What a load of sensationalist garbage. The things he mentions are practised by a very, very small minority of less successful riders. True dressage involves the scales of training that help the horse (and rider) become more supple and attain the higher standards. Forcing a horse to do something for the majority of riders never ends well for horse or rider. And the majority of racehorses are treated like royalty and greatly loved by the trainers, jockeys, lads and lasses who look after them. Sadly most people who read this article will not understand this.

you might be right about true dressage and top riders. There are a lot of poor riders doing dressage (and other equestrian sports) Many horses are forced.

As for racehorses being treated like royalty and greatly loved did you miss the thread about racehorses and slaughterhouses when they get to the end of their useless lives?
 

paddy555

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Regarding flying horses I know someone who last year flew 2 retired horses back from Spain. They had been living there, and when they moved they left the horses in a retirement livery monitored by a friend. When their friend also left they did not want to leave the horses without someone supervising the livery, and as they felt that it was a long time for older horses to stand on a truck they opted to fly them back. Cost them a lot of money, and for sure they were not doing this as a selfish act, since neither horse is ridden or used in any way. Personally I thought that this was fantastic. Maybe the flight was not the best day of their lives, but the horses are now living a great life, in the field dawn to dusk, groomed and fussed every day, and the only 'work' they get is to be hand walked by their owner or her daughter. Both horses in their 20s and they arrived looking just fine, so I am not sure that flying is as hard on them as one might imagine.

I can see in that case flying horses was acceptable. There was a welfare benefit for the horses. They ended up with a good retirement and didn't have to endure a long road journey. .

What I cannot see is flying 325 horses around the world to the Olympics the only reason whatsover being for the pleasure and fun of humans, both riders and spectators.
There was no other reason to do it. The only reason is for one rider to establish them and their horse can jump a higher fence or perform a dressage movement better than the rest of their class. There is absolutely no benefit to any of the horses at that event (or indeed at others)

On top of that where do all these flights fit in with climate change? or is it convenient to forget that when humans want to ride their horse in the Olympics.
 

Zuzan

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He might not have gone about it in a way that you consider appropriate but where are the false statements?

What are the "real issues"? The cruelties that he writes about have and do happen. There is evidence of all that he mentions.

.............

It's so strange to me to have had recent threads about horse sports in the Olympics, where flying horses was also brought up, were discussed and how there is a lack of standards/knowledge/care on the Disconnect thread amongst the numerous welfare and training threads that have been on here during my 17yrs on here yet an "outsider" puts real events out in the open and it's like the walls come up

My issue is EXACTLY with the methods he is using .. I haven't said he has made false statements .. they are sweeping and too generalised to be useful to either the non equestrian public or to the equestrian world.. Using huge generalised non specific and emotive language is that of populists like Bolsonaro ..

His tactics undermine all the efforts many of us make to improve welfare of all equines. THAT is my huge problem with him and that "article" in reality it is definitive of click bait. Using equine welfare issues for ulterior motives.. that I find pretty much as dreadful as actual abuse..

The Disconnect Thread is not counter to many of the arguements made on this thread but I just shows how people like him seek to create conflict and essentially undermine progress towards better understanding and attitudes to welfare taking into account equine behaviour.
 

paddy555

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My issue is EXACTLY with the methods he is using .. I haven't said he has made false statements .. they are sweeping and too generalised to be useful to either the non equestrian public or to the equestrian world.. Using huge generalised non specific and emotive language is that of populists like Bolsonaro ..

His tactics undermine all the efforts many of us make to improve welfare of all equines. THAT is my huge problem with him and that "article" in reality it is definitive of click bait. Using equine welfare issues for ulterior motives.. that I find pretty much as dreadful as actual abuse..

The Disconnect Thread is not counter to many of the arguements made on this thread but I just shows how people like him seek to create conflict and essentially undermine progress towards better understanding and attitudes to welfare taking into account equine behaviour.

what is wrong with the methods? I cannot see much that he said that wasn't true. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I agree with most of his. I didn't find the language emotive. I can see that some riders wouldn't appreciate his comments. :rolleyes: I don't see why the non equestrian public wouldn't find it useful or interesting.
 

Zuzan

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what is wrong with the methods? I cannot see much that he said that wasn't true. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I agree with most of his. I didn't find the language emotive. I can see that some riders wouldn't. :rolleyes: I don't see why the non equestrian public wouldn't find it useful or interesting.
Where did I say what he was saying wasn't true... the methods of communication he uses are to sensationalise, to generalise, to use emotive langauge .. he is using this issue to further his own "profile" effectively he is using equine welfare issues for his own personal gain.. he might as well be the Brazilian rider cited elsewhere .. his objectives are not to improve welfare but to use welfare for his own gain. That is is dispicable as actual abuse.

ETA generalised emotive statements are what populists use to inflame and create conflict.. that isn't "useful" to anyone.. least of the non equestrian public whose understanding is not going to be furthered by "articles" like that.
 

Zuzan

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What are his "ulterior motives"? That just reads like even more deflection
His ulterior motives are purely those of populists to create conflict .. not to improve or make progress.. that is dispicable use of an issue for his own personal gain.
 

TPO

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His ulterior motives are purely those of populists to create conflict .. not to improve or make progress.. that is dispicable use of an issue for his own personal gain.

Yes because writing about a minority sport is the path to greatness?

I would imagine it's a "passion piece" because he does have an involvement with equine rescue and has chosen to use his (relatively small) platform to write about something that he cares about.

Equestrianism hasn't fixed the problem itself or these issues wouldn't exist for "outside" journalists to write about.

A horse literally died because of the Olympics. I'm not saying that this horse wasn't loved and isn't missed but it was people in the name of sport that put the horse in that position. It's not the first horse fatality and sadly it won't be the last.

Except rather than look inwards at "our" community from grass roots to top level the knee jerk reaction is to criticise the journalist who dares to question the ethics of it
 

Zuzan

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Yes because writing about a minority sport is the path to greatness?

I would imagine it's a "passion piece" because he does have an involvement with equine rescue and has chosen to use his (relatively small) platform to write about something that he cares about.

Equestrianism hasn't fixed the problem itself or these issues wouldn't exist for "outside" journalists to write about.

A horse literally died because of the Olympics. I'm not saying that this horse wasn't loved and isn't missed but it was people in the name of sport that put the horse in that position. It's not the first horse fatality and sadly it won't be the last.

Except rather than look inwards at "our" community from grass roots to top level the knee jerk reaction is to criticise the journalist who dares to question the ethics of it

Those are EXACTLT the tactics of populists..
Pick on a minority
Use that minority's under belly / weakness to incite opinion against them
 

paddy555

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Those are EXACTLT the tactics of populists..
Pick on a minority
Use that minority's under belly / weakness to incite opinion against them

I hardly think horse riders and equestrian sport are a minority.. They are a pretty rich and forceful section of the community. There are a lot of weaknesses that need to be picked on.
Is the problem with his article that equestrians like to keep abuse behind closed doors and he has exposed some of it.

I think he makes some good points. I do find your emotive language a bit puzzling though.
 

Santa’s Irish draught

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These dressage issues are commonly coming up in this forum it’s more of a pro issue than just general dressage alone. I think he shouldn’t just blame everyone who does dressage because that’s unfair. I will be honest the Olympic is doggy in general the amount of runners that got caught with drugs in the systems in the finals is crazy. So I think more rules need to be added.
 

Winters100

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On top of that where do all these flights fit in with climate change? or is it convenient to forget that when humans want to ride their horse in the Olympics.

I get what you are saying, but let's be honest, if we are talking about climate change we should cancel the whole thing. Horse transport is a tiny part of it when you consider people, equipment, building facilities which are often later abandoned.....

We can make the same argument for foreign holidays, transporting horses for pleasure and lower level competition and all kinds of other sports.
 

paddy555

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I get what you are saying, but let's be honest, if we are talking about climate change we should cancel the whole thing. Horse transport is a tiny part of it when you consider people, equipment, building facilities which are often later abandoned.....

We can make the same argument for foreign holidays, transporting horses for pleasure and lower level competition and all kinds of other sports.

I too see what you are saying but every little helps and idc it is going to cost all of us financially with greener/climate change requirements. So if the poor are going to be affected financially to make a difference (as they will) there is little justification for flying 300 plus horses halfway around the world every 4 years or even at all when it is purely for pleasure.


Sometimes it seems to be the case that people promote climate change as long as it doesn't affect their own foreign holiday, their own horsebox trip to an event or their own Mexican avocado. In which case lets all forget climate change and the massive amounts it is going to cost and carry on with our old lives. What does it really matter.
 

SibeliusMB

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I can see in that case flying horses was acceptable. There was a welfare benefit for the horses. They ended up with a good retirement and didn't have to endure a long road journey. .

What I cannot see is flying 325 horses around the world to the Olympics the only reason whatsover being for the pleasure and fun of humans, both riders and spectators.
There was no other reason to do it. The only reason is for one rider to establish them and their horse can jump a higher fence or perform a dressage movement better than the rest of their class. There is absolutely no benefit to any of the horses at that event (or indeed at others)

On top of that where do all these flights fit in with climate change? or is it convenient to forget that when humans want to ride their horse in the Olympics.
But...we fly them all around the world for WEG, World Cup, etc....so is that not okay either? If you can't have the competitions because flying horses to other countries/climates isn't worth it for the amusement of humans, then the sport itself also dies in time.

Horse ownership in modern times has an element of amusing the humans. Even those who own pasture puffs probably take some delight in looking out and seeing their horses happy in the field. Happy hackers get enjoyment from spending time with their horse and the ride. Competitive types also have many ways in which they might enjoy and get amusement/fulfillment from training, and dare I say, competing against each other. I don't think we should be guilting or judging each other for how much fun/enjoyment we get out of being horsemen, so long as the animals are being looked after appropriately. The arguments always start when people disagree on what horse welfare means.

I think horse sports in the Olympics is a double-edged sword. On one hand, it's great to showcase to the world how great these athletes are, how special the partnership is between horse and human. I hope that people get inspired to start riding lessons or become otherwise involved in horses. But on the downside, it is getting hard to make this appealing to an increasingly distanced general public. More and more people (in the US, anyway) are living in suburban areas and having less and less to do with rural living, to include exposure to livestock like horses. They don't understand animal husbandry. This creates a larger knowledge gap, and drastically increased likelihood of images of horse sport being perceived as cruel, unnecessary, or taken out of context. Add social media and how easy it is to spread misinformation into the mix, and it's a borderline nightmare in my mind.

Take the carriage horse debate in NYC. They have long been under attach from animal rights nutjobs and painted as cruel and abusive. Lies spread about how they live in the city. Misinformation spread about their welfare and condition (ie. horses had broken legs on the hackline, when those horses were just resting/cocking a hind leg :rolleyes:). A bunch of ignorant activists are putting a legitimate industry on the brink because they push an emotional agenda and the ignorant public doesn't know any better. I've been in those stables, looked at those horses first hand, seen the hackline, ridden in the carriages, and spoken to the drivers and staff. Those horses arguably live better than mine does. But the public doesn't get to see that, because the media presence of the animal rights groups is louder and larger than the reality the carriage supporters are sharing.

I've long studied the effects of the animal rights movement on the horse industry. We may never see anything drastic in our lifetimes change, but I do sincerely fear the slippery slope of the public becoming disinclined to support one type of horse sport, and its effect on the existence of others. We need to self police and call out bad behavior of other equestrians and be transparent about it. We can't hide things behind closed doors. We also need to support those who are doing things right and celebrate those people as good examples - to us and the general public.
 

Caol Ila

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Take the carriage horse debate in NYC. They have long been under attach from animal rights nutjobs and painted as cruel and abusive. Lies spread about how they live in the city. Misinformation spread about their welfare and condition (ie. horses had broken legs on the hackline, when those horses were just resting/cocking a hind leg :rolleyes:). A bunch of ignorant activists are putting a legitimate industry on the brink because they push an emotional agenda and the ignorant public doesn't know any better. I've been in those stables, looked at those horses first hand, seen the hackline, ridden in the carriages, and spoken to the drivers and staff. Those horses arguably live better than mine does. But the public doesn't get to see that, because the media presence of the animal rights groups is louder and larger than the reality the carriage supporters are sharing.

I've long studied the effects of the animal rights movement on the horse industry. We may never see anything drastic in our lifetimes change, but I do sincerely fear the slippery slope of the public becoming disinclined to support one type of horse sport, and its effect on the existence of others. We need to self police and call out bad behavior of other equestrians and be transparent about it. We can't hide things behind closed doors. We also need to support those who are doing things right and celebrate those people as good examples - to us and the general public.

And what a corrupt morass that was -- animal rights activists in bed with a property developer, who had eyes on some very lucrative West Side real estate, which happened to be the stabling for those horses. The developer was at the reins of the 'animal rights' organization spearheading the carriage horse ban campaign. Funny, that. He also donated a significant amount of cash to Bill de Blasio's mayorial campaign. So when Bill got into office, one of the first things he did was take a swipe at the carriage industry, which he thought was low-hanging political fruit (because horses! animal welfare!) and would appease his donor. I don't think he expected the knock-down-drag-out fight that ensued, and he had to back off his initial proposal of banning the horses competely. But it was never really about horses.

On a totally different tangent, as horse people, we often get sucked into far too much 'whataboutery' to have meaningful conversations about welfare. How many times have you read someone on the internet complaining about rollkur or whatever, and then someone else says, "But what about soring Tennessee walking horses!?" Happens here. In that thread about the racing industry, several posters countered comments about problems in racing with "what about all the abused/neglected cob types?!"
 
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palo1

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And what a corrupt morass that was -- animal rights activists in bed with a property developer, who had eyes on some very lucrative West Side real estate, which happened to be the stabling for those horses. The developer was at the reins of the 'animal rights' organization spearheading the carriage horse ban campaign. Funny, that. He also donated a significant amount of cash to Bill de Blasio's mayorial campaign. So when Bill got into office, one of the first things he did was take a swipe at the carriage industry, which he thought was low-hanging political fruit (because horses! animal welfare!) and would appease his donor. I don't think he expected the knock-down-drag-out fight that ensued, and he had to back off his initial proposal of banning the horses competely. But it was never really about horses.

On a totally different tangent, as horse people, we often get sucked into far too much 'whataboutery' to have meaningful conversations about welfare. How many times have you read someone on the internet complaining about rollkur or whatever, and then someone else says, "But what about soring Tennessee walking horses!?" Happens here. In that thread about the racing industry, several posters countered comments about problems in racing with "what about all the abused/neglected cob types?!"

Yes, the whataboutery is tricky and I know I am guilty of that (amongst other posters too lol) - I think it is usually to do with thinking on the hoof (scuse pun!) and opening up a debate but it is a clumsy thing to do and not helpful in some discussions. I know people find it really irritating in fact but I don't think it is always intentionally distractive tbh. I also think that bringing 'other' problems into a discussion through that whataboutery isn't always bad as it does or can call out other things that need considering. I think any discussion about welfare is useful and as there are very few answers I am not sure how much it really impacts on the original subject - for example with the racing thread. I quite like a bit of whataboutery to point out things that have not been spotlighted but are still relevant to attitudes and debates. Norty!!
 

Zuzan

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I hardly think horse riders and equestrian sport are a minority.. They are a pretty rich and forceful section of the community. There are a lot of weaknesses that need to be picked on.
Is the problem with his article that equestrians like to keep abuse behind closed doors and he has exposed some of it.

I think he makes some good points. I do find your emotive language a bit puzzling though.

I am all for exposing and open discussion of abuse and welfare. However it has to be informed and level headed. That article is neither informed or level headed.

horse riders are a minority and equestrian sport most certainly is a minority sport ... But being a minority doesn't mean you are not priveleged .. Part of the reason Hitler was able to turn society against the Jews was a perception of their privelege and wealth .. that is still very apparent today.

I find it quite intersting that you are evidently attempting to turn my accusation of emotive language back on me. But I guess if you are defending piece like that article then I shouldn't expect anything else.
 

Santa’s Irish draught

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I think that you mean dodgy, not doggy ??

How many dope failures have there been from race finalists during Tokyo 2020? Any? Have I missed something?
Officials have not named any of the athletes involved, but the group of 20 who failed came from the 222 athletes the countries had entered in Tokyo 2020.
 
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