Even more livery yards moving towards banning winter turnout?

[lewis2015]

Hi all

Just posting as I'm feeling increasingly fed up and frustrated over the winter turnout options available in the area that I live. Two years ago I moved my horse to a rather 'rough round the edges' yard for the sole reason that they had 24/7 summer turnout and all day winter turnout. He's getting old now and I don't want him stood around in a stable getting stiff and swollen. He also goes stir crazy when in all the time, as I experienced when he was on box rest one time. In the 4 years I've owned him I've moved him 3 times for various reasons, but mainly due to the yards I was on putting heavy restrictions on winter turnout.

On my current yard, last year we started on every day winter turnout but after xmas some of the horses started wrecking the fences (due to field being overstocked and owners not really feeding them hay before they went out), so the owner limited it to every other day which was fine and worked ok for me and my horse.

I've since bought another horse (16 yr old ex racer who is fine when stabled at night, but gets stressy when in for too long).

Yesterday I just happened to be told in passing by another livery that this year the YO is limiting TO to an hour a day over winter!? I emailed the yard owner to confirm and she said that it will be half day turnout to start with, but going to an hour if weather gets bad and any horses that wreck fences will be limited to an hour when their owners are there. Mine have never wrecked fencing so I'm not worried about that, but the prospect of an hour a day if it rains heavily like last winter is awful

I'm a bit annoyed that they are making this change without properly informing people, and I've now got the stress of finding somewhere else. The problem is there is no where else! In the four years I've had my gelding I've been on 4 livery yards and been to look at 10+ other local yards. All either had very limited/ no winter turnout, had no DIY livery option and extortionate prices for part livery, or silly rules like 'can't be on yard before 8am' (I work full time and sort my horses at 6am before work). I've also tried desperately to find a field to rent but no joy there either.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just infuriated at what seems to be becoming more acceptable as a culture shift towards no winter turnout. 25/30 years ago when I was riding as a youngster the horses lived out 24/7 all year with no problems. Fields were not overstocked and people weren't scared of a bit of mud.

Is this particular to the north west or have others experienced this? Would your horses cope on an hour a day turnout? (NB - my horses are both older, semi-retired and are only used for light hacking a couple of times a week).

(X-posted on the north west board to see if others have similar experience).

 

[Jnhuk]

The only long term solution I can see is to rent your own field then you can keep them as you like but don't know how easy that will be in your area or look for a livery yard that runs a track system but they are quite rare I believe

 

[lewis2015]

The only long term solution I can see is to rent your own field then you can keep them as you like but don't know how easy that will be in your area or look for a livery yard that runs a track system but they are quite rare I believe

Thanks for the reply The only livery yard I know of in the area running a track system is a yard I used to be on and left because of the way it was run :/ The owners do not have a good local reputation and by all accounts their track system is being run incorrectly and is a bit of a disaster. I agree that I think really I need to rent my own field, I just haven't been able to find one! I don't really know where to look and don't have 'in the know' contacts in the horsey/farming world as I'm newish to the area and don't have a farming background in the family. I'll keep looking, though! Thanks

 

[Carrots&Mints]

I'm in the north west and have moved yards quite a bit over the last 12 months to find a perfect yard and so far no good, yards 'promised' winter turnout, but when it actually came to turnout, we never got any!! The first one didn't even have decent summer turn out do to terrible management. The second one said they had winter turnout, but because YO girlfriend wanted her horses out, they came first! Sod the 40 customers with horses all going nuts! 3rd yard not too bad, had winter turnout twice a week, and choice of a 24/7 field but it wasn't the safest, but the option is there and that's the nearest I've got to perfect. Unfortunately, due to working away during the week, I've sent my pony to be on full livery with my friend who owns his own yard so as long as the fields are dry, the horses go out. And even better... its an only gelding and stallion yard... no mares! 1 less hassle and plenty of turnout!

 

[Theocat]

Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result - horse owners, yard owners and horses.

 

[elsielouise]

I have had the exact same problem over the years I ever kept horses in livery so feel your pain. Now I am old and can finally afford my own land and yard I am offering livery. I don't want DIY as I want my own routines but I categorically turn out every day/bed up my stables and liveries can have free access to them from the field.

My query is how much would you actually be prepared to pay for the quality winter grazing you want? I could run 7-8 horses and stable them through the winter or have three and guarantee mud free turnout. But it would cost more.

Would you actually be prepared to pay the £90 a week for what you might think is full grass livery (south East) but is actually well managed livery with clean fields safe fencing and not overstocked!

 

[Doormouse]

Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result - horse owners, yard owners and horses.

I was just going to post exactly this!

The cost of DIY has barely gone up in the last 15 years but cost of living has gone shooting up. Livery owners know that if they put their prices up to be able to not over stock their land, lots of liveries will leave.

 

[meleeka]

There's a small yard near me that charges £25 a week but only allowed turnout during the day when the land is dry. Some summers they barely get turned out at all and never in winter. They have lovely green fields but what's the point when they can only be used rarely? There are too many horses for a small piece of land imo.

I would pay £90 per week for guaranteed turnout. I have my own small field and although one bit gets trashed in winter, it recovers by the next year. Next year I may reseed which is under £50 an acre. Maybe the difference is that I don't expect it to be a food source all year and do also provide hay.

 

[Archangel]

Mother Nature has a big hand in it.

I am on sand so very free draining - years ago I could walk out and do the horses in my work shoes in the middle of winter. However the last few winters have been so wet that I have mud, not just a bit but horrible sloshy mud over a third of the field - this is 2 unshod horses and on sand. Any more horses and there wouldn't be a dry bit in the field - Just down the road is clay and previously they could turn out until Christmas - now as soon as it gets wet they can't turn out at all because the water table is so high.

If you want year round turnout see if you can find some sandy soil at least you have a chance then. I did 12 years on clay soil - never again.

 

[ycbm]

I think your problem is also your location. It isn't called the High Peak for nothing . I'm White Peak, to the west, but the whole Peak Park is essentially poorly drained moorland where it also rains a lot. I run two horses and two minis on twelve acres of steep land where the rain runs off. I could probably just about do two more big horses, but some parts would be a complete mess. You can't run a livery yard on one horse to every three acres and make any money.

 

[honetpot]

The trouble with land is they just are not making anymore. If you want to buy a small acreage its about 10-15k and acre, if you buy a house and normal mortgage will only lend on a house with up to two acres, so you have to have a commercials mortgage, if you can get one the interest rate is higher. Overstocking is the only way to make the rent/mortgage payments for some its a commercial decision.
The only person I know who has unlimited turnout is a farmer who does not actively farm and its a big enough farm to waste 50 acres on horses.
I am on clay, the water just sits there, so I have a thrash paddock and they are fed hay in rings from November to April, its just what you have to do to manage the land.

 

[sport horse]

I have my own horses - 20 sport horses - and I have 50 acres of land. The youngsters and mares and foals live out all summer (May thro to 2nd January hopefully). The sport horses go out for a maximum of half a day through those months. Nothing goes out at all from Jan until at least mid April.

I have my own farm equipment to harrow, roll, top etc, as and exactly when, needed. On wet land sometimes it can be just one or two strips around a muddy field per day a it dries out!

Large holdings of agricultural land around me go for £10,000 per acre. Small amounts have been known to reach the dizzy heights of £40,000 per acre.

Can I suggest that those complaining, yet again, about greedy livery yard owners, go out and buy their own land and equipment and do it themselves.

I would not have a livery anywhere near my yard!!

 

[GoldenWillow]

I'm in the North West and all of the yards that I know bar one have heavily restricted and sometimes no winter turnout.

 

[tatty_v]

It must be so frustrating for you. I don't think my pony would cope on 1hr's turnout a day in winter, I probably wouldn't be able to catch him! We are on a farm and pay £90 a month for totally DIY livery. Turnout is 24/7 all year round, but it is our own responsibility to manage our paddocks in whatever way we see fit (e.g. track systems, using sections at a time etc). Rolling and harrowing get done for us in the Spring. It's pretty rough around the edges, but it works and we are all extremely grateful as we know it's not the norm. Does your yard have an all weather turnout you could use? At least then your boy could stretch his legs x

 

[Slightly Foxed]

Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result - horse owners, yard owners and horses.

This exactly. I have all year turnout. My paddocks are divided for winter and summer use. I'm on heavy clay so the winter paddocks get trashed but I've also invested in properly constructed, well drained, woodchip turnout areas in each of the winter paddocks so the horses can get out of the mud. That didn't come cheap I can tell you!

 

[lewis2015]

Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result - horse owners, yard owners and horses.

Thanks for your thoughts, Theocat. Whilst I don't agree, I take on board your perspective.

I earn a decent salary of £40k plus and I still can't comfortably afford some of the 'part' livery prices in this area for two horses. Part livery is a MASSIVE compromise for me as I bought my horses to look after myself and that's the main thing I enjoy about it. I do consider it extortionate to pay upwards of £800 a month for someone to put a feed bucket in, change a rug and turf out in the field (as believe me, this is all 'part' livery consists of round here), especially when I can and WANT to do this myself. Fair enough, you'll probably say then don't do livery get your own land, which is what I'd like to do but is easier said than done. It's a shame if we are getting towards a situation where only the mega wealthy can afford horses.

This is coupled with my absolutely woeful experience of 'part' livery in the past - for example, the assistants not being able to control my strong ID gelding and letting him get loose when lead, not putting feeds in until gone 11am, 'forgetting' to bring him on a evening, turning out in a stable rug, not giving him hay before turnout, accidentally giving him another horse's feed... the list goes on! I'm sorry, but I only want to do DIY and I don't agree that this should mean I accept no winter turnout.

 

[lewis2015]

I'm in the north west and have moved yards quite a bit over the last 12 months to find a perfect yard and so far no good, yards 'promised' winter turnout, but when it actually came to turnout, we never got any!! The first one didn't even have decent summer turn out do to terrible management. The second one said they had winter turnout, but because YO girlfriend wanted her horses out, they came first! Sod the 40 customers with horses all going nuts! 3rd yard not too bad, had winter turnout twice a week, and choice of a 24/7 field but it wasn't the safest, but the option is there and that's the nearest I've got to perfect. Unfortunately, due to working away during the week, I've sent my pony to be on full livery with my friend who owns his own yard so as long as the fields are dry, the horses go out. And even better... its an only gelding and stallion yard... no mares! 1 less hassle and plenty of turnout!

Thanks for the reply, C&M I'm glad you've finally found something suitable for your pony! It is a pain in this area!

 

[lewis2015]

I have my own horses - 20 sport horses - and I have 50 acres of land. The youngsters and mares and foals live out all summer (May thro to 2nd January hopefully). The sport horses go out for a maximum of half a day through those months. Nothing goes out at all from Jan until at least mid April.

I have my own farm equipment to harrow, roll, top etc, as and exactly when, needed. On wet land sometimes it can be just one or two strips around a muddy field per day a it dries out!

Large holdings of agricultural land around me go for £10,000 per acre. Small amounts have been known to reach the dizzy heights of £40,000 per acre.

Can I suggest that those complaining, yet again, about greedy livery yard owners, go out and buy their own land and equipment and do it themselves.

I would not have a livery anywhere near my yard!!

Hi - thanks for your reply. I think you're right, I do need to think of it from landowners' perspective a bit more. However, I wasn't really saying landowners were 'greedy', more asking if people think an hour a day is reasonable and not cruel.

 

[ben456]

this is my first winter as a horse owner. the 'summer field' holds around 15 horses 24/7 from around feb-nov. the land is on a tilt and is made up of different secstions, its starting to get muddy now and at the beginning of summer it dried up around may. i would say that field is not much more than 15 acres. in winter i think we all move to another field which is slightly smaller, im not sure how muddy it gets though and back into the 'summer firld beginning of feb. i arrived with my first horse at end of feb and it was quite muddy but no one really minds as their horses come to call ( mine seems to be the only one that wont �&#65533 i pay £21 a week but heared yo saying to some new people that she is raising it to £25, which i wouldnt really be happy paying because the fences are rubbish, there are some hazards in the field but its the best available in the area until i can find somewhere for myself

-forgot to mention that horse come in overnight and out all day in winter, from around november to april.

 

[scats]

I'm from the North West and it seems winter turnout is a big problem everywhere. I coped for a number of years on a yard with a bog of a winter field on clay soil, by December it was unusable and you couldn't get a horse in or out without fear of being sucked into the ground. We could turn out for an hour or two in rubber paddocks. This was from November til May. Horrendous.

I'm now on a much smaller yard, we have individual turnout (well, paired, owners choice who they pair with), most of us have two horses each so we just do our own thing. We have 24/7 turnout from April til November and daily turnout all winter. YO asks that we are sensible, so if it's lashing with rain and has been for a few days, she expects us to use our common sense and just give them a few hours morning/afternoon or evening, which is fine as these are just occasional days and it does stop our fields from being trashed. We have no mud, absolutely none. No-one believes us until they see it, but we rotate fields, rest them often, never over stock them and generally look after them. We did have standing water on a few last winter (no surprise there, given the weather) but we just fenced those parts off.

I could never go back to no proper winter turnout.

 

[Damnation]

I'm even further North West than you, and yes, winter turnout restrictions or no turnout at all are very common set ups.

Of the 4 yards I have been on in the last 6 years, 2 had/have (I am on one now) winter turnout.

The first yard that didn't do winter turnout had a big lean to they didn't mind horses going loose into and would put them out in groups throughout the day (Including DIY liveries, they just did it!), then we could use it at night too whilst mucking out, along with an indoor arena and floodlit all weather outdoor the horses coped very well with pleanty of opportunity to leg stretch and socialise.

Second yard, no arena, promised winter turnout but got none, nowhere was lit so at night when it was dark I couldn't walk her anywhere. She ended up in for 6 months, I was going nuts, especially as YO's horses went out 6 weeks before ours did. I left.

I am very lucky that I am on a yard that offers daily winter turnout however it is VERY muddy (on marshland), but we all chip together to keep the round feeder in the field stocked up with hay so they always have access to food. I am happy with this - my horse would rather be out, knee deep in mud with hay than stuck in a stable which is the exact reason I moved to this yard. I will not be leaving any time soon!!!!

ETA: YM rents the yard from an estate, our livery covers rent and the estate do the repairs, we order hay seperately although can use YM's supplier. Its £90 PCM for livery, £25 for a large round bale of hay. I know I have a very good deal!

 

[9tails]

I will never get my head around complaints that £25 for stabling and grazing per week is expensive!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I will never get my head around complaints that £25 for stabling and grazing per week is expensive!

Me neither, I was charging that in 1990 - 26 years ago!
Do people really expect to pay less than £3.60 a day? :confused3:

 

[ben456]

i wouldnt mind paying it as i know it is still cheap, however i think the yo should consider improving the horses safety first. £20-£25 is the average around here for stable and grazing

 

[Slightly Foxed]

Me neither, I was charging that in 1990 - 26 years ago!
Do people really expect to pay less than £3.60 a day? :confused3:

To cover non domestic rates, water, electricity, maintenance, etc etc

 

[lewis2015]

I will never get my head around complaints that £25 for stabling and grazing per week is expensive!

I don't think that is expensive so I'm guessing that is aimed at someone else.

To be fair to my YO I have spoken today and it appears the issue is mainly with a couple of horses who are fence wrecking so hopefully we can ensure most of the horses still get a reasonable amount of turnout.

 

[Maesfen]

Right - Rant time and I won't be sorry to those I offend; sorry and all that!

I totally agree with Theocat, Elsielouise, Honetpot and others in the same vein.

People who want DIY or any other type of livery just do not have any idea of the running costs of having that sort of yard but think their £15 a week entitles them to everything they demand without any restrictions. By the same token, people who opened yards accepting too many horses for their land without doing their homework from both the financial POV and the toll it would take on their land are also delusional idiots.
Cheap and horses are not words that fit in one sentence; it just can't happen. If it is cheap, it will be rubbish and it's exactly the same when looking for livery.
Cheap livery will not be able to supply your needs for very long without having to make changes whether that means fencing failing badly, supplying (and charging) for extra hay when the grass has gone or restricting grazing at wet times of the year; even worse if you require someone to do jobs in your place. If a horse is stabled and turned out, you want those jobs and associated ones (mucking out, bedding down, feeding, filling haynets, changing rugs, picking out feet, turning out, catching in and so on) it's going to be at least 1 hour of time during the day spent on that horse; minimum wage is £7 ?? so that's an extra £35 a week at least on top of your grazing/stable costs alone; you can't expect it done for nothing.
Again, by the same token, you can't expect yard owners to allow all of their fields to be trashed during wet weather without some restrictions in place else the land is ruined, there'd be no grass for the next year and then you'd be moaning too. Weather has to be taken into account plus the type of land and the stocking rates too. Ideally, a 40 horse yard would need at least 80 acres to do the job properly so if the stocking rate is too dense you just know that will lead to problems when the weather is bad; whether that be by restricted turnout or whatever. It's up to you to do your homework for every season (including things like unprecedented rainfall which is common in the north west) Everything costs and in fairness to most decent livery owners, it shouldn't be them footing the whole bill from their own pocket, the livery charges should allow for all maintenance costs such as rolling, harrowing, repairs, hedgecutting and general upkeep let alone something so trivial as towards a wage of some sort. Most livery owners live on site, it's their home too so to a certain extent it needs to be run for their convenience too especially if there are common entrances and the house is on the yard, not tucked away from it. I wouldn't want anyone knocking about at 6am either unless it was a one off for a vet, cubbing or a show or at the other end of the day either; they deserve some quiet time and your cheap livery is certainly not a reason to expect access all hours as a right.

Put simply - If you aren't prepared to pay a decent price for livery of any type, then don't have a horse at all. Don't expect others to subsidise your hobby and then complain about it.
You'd be the one complaining if you were in the YO's shoes, believe me. I totally agree that livery yard owners need to be realistic in their expectations too, to not over stock, provide decent grazing, fences and so on, but don't blame them if they try to protect their property (no amount of livery will cover the damage caused) by placing fair restrictions when necessary.
Until it's your property, you don't have a say in the matter so if you don't like it, vote with your feet.

 

[be positive]

i wouldnt mind paying it as i know it is still cheap, however i think the yo should consider improving the horses safety first. £20-£25 is the average around here for stable and grazing

The problem is that the YO is making just over £300 per week from 15 stables and however much grazing they have, there just isn't enough money available from that income to invest heavily into improving the facilities, to fence 15 acres would cost several months income and will never pay for itself so they probably just patch up and make do.

The cost of buying a horse has gone down in real terms, so has DIY livery, full and part vary so much from area to area it is hard to judge but generally have probably kept fairly in line with inflation, it is the other associated costs that have risen, shoeing, tack, vets, insurance and for a YO the price of land, buildings, staff and other overheads will have gone up significantly.

FF if you were charging £25 in 1990 now it would be £56 which is probably about right but how many people would think it fair for the use of a stable, an acre or two of field, an arena plus various storage areas, as long as there are yards charging as little as some quoted, £90 a month is so cheap, then everyone will be reluctant to pay and continue to moan about poor maintenance, lack of turnout or whatever is the issue with their yard at any moment in time, nowhere is likely to be perfect unless you buy your own property and find out the real cost of having land.

 

[charlie76]

I run a yard with just full and part livery, we are lucky as we are on free draining sandy soil, however, in extreme weather they still get trashed if horses are out all day on it. I will restrict turn out if it gets very wet, we have an indoor turn out area and a walker we can use if need be.

PS... I will never be rich running a yard! Even on part and full livery prices, I've been doing it for five years and only just started making a small profit!

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I think the recent weather patterns over winter haven't helped, either physically or psychologically. Physically because the land is so waterlogged, it can't cope with the load, regardless of the soil type - even managed surfaces are struggling. Psychologically, because I would hazard a guess that if we were under a foot of frozen snow for winter, people wouldn't complain quite so much.

I'm very, very fortunate - I have year round 24/7 grazing that I can manage pretty much how I want. But there are other areas that I've had to compromise on and the prices are rising steadily each year. I don't have a problem with the cost, I know it's not cheap and I have what many owners don't. Would like it though it they fixed the lights in the hay barn though - not sure my foot can take much more stubbing in the mornings!!