Even more livery yards moving towards banning winter turnout?

[milliepops]

agree that many horses do cope, and indeed when I was kid I had no winter turnout at all at one place, they were in from Nov to March Probably what's at the root of my 'must ride every day' mentality

But the OPs horses are semi retired and there is no school or walker available. It does sound like the OPs yard is not really suitable for them.

 

[cobgoblin]

There is a massive difference between show jumpers and dressage horses being kept in and worked every day and leisure horses with an owner that works full time.

 

[Annagain]

I don't think an hour a day is good enough. When we had one of ours on box rest he was getting 1/2 an hour hand walking morning and night so I'd consider an hour no better than that.

We're very lucky at our yard. We have 24/7 turnout in summer and every day in winter with no restrictions. They even got out every day last winter when it rained every day from early December to the middle of March, except for 4 days at the end of January when it all froze. I think we were the only yard in the area where we managed this. I know all the others I know of who normally allow winter turnout were restricting it last year, but it was an exceptionally wet year (I hope!) even for S. Wales. The field was like soup so they weren't getting any grass, but they still got out for as long as we wanted.

Our yard only has a maximum of 13 horses on about 55 acres (which they share with prize-winning show sheep) so we're lucky in that the fields are never over-grazed. YO inherited the farm and I'm not sure she could manage on these numbers if she also had a (probably sizeable) mortgage to pay. Having said that, it's entirely DIY so while there's maintenance etc that needs doing it's not a day in day out job and she only works part time so it obviously pays her enough to take enough of a salary from it to allow her to do this.

While the fencing has always been looked after and the fields are as safe, this year is the first year where there's been proper investment in the yard for as long as I've been there (13 years). We've had the school topped up, road planings on all the tracks and the farm lane resurfaced. I don't think there's any reason it hasn't been done sooner, other than finances and while it's nice to have everything looking nice and new, I was never unhappy with the way things were.

I pay a very reasonable £32 a week which includes haylage while they're in over the winter (technically £25 a week for 7 months of summer and £40 for 5 months of winter but it's evened out over the year) This has gone up gradually from £20 a week when I first arrived 13 years ago (although we had to pay £1 per half hour for the school then. Now it's included as people weren't being honest about using it) but is still very reasonable and I'd gladly pay more to ensure the set-up stays this way.

 

[muddy_grey]

There is a massive difference between show jumpers and dressage horses being kept in and worked every day and leisure horses with an owner that works full time.

My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard. It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday. Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership. If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.

 

[Flame_]

My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard. It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday. Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership. If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.

This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.

 

[cobgoblin]

My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard. It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday. Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership. If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.

Actually that's not really true. Not all yards have indoor schools, or even outdoor ones that are useable in winter...or a lunging pen...if you can't turn out, then you won't be able to lunge in the field
I suppose you could take your chances and hack out in the pitch black, ice, snow , floods......

 

[paddi22]

We just came to accept that winters will be a lot longer, warmer and wetter from now on and installed an allweather small turnout paddock, so at least they all get out. I think yards need to adapt and fit in all weather tracks, walkers or turnout areas. No way is it fair to keep a horse trapped in a box all day. we did it when i was a kid but it was only hunters over winter who would have been exercised a lot anyways. I think the old way of winterout needs to be modified to cope with the change in weather and lack of land.

 

[ycbm]

Actually that's not really true. Not all yards have indoor schools, or even outdoor ones that are useable in winter...or a lunging pen...if you can't turn out, then you won't be able to lunge in the field
I suppose you could take your chances and hack out in the pitch black, ice, snow , floods......

This is true. So I suppose what we come down to then is a very blunt question. Is it acceptable to keep horses in a stable for most of a 24 hour period without adequate exercise? Which also ties into what you would consider adequate exercise. For me, a horse walker is not adequate exercise and neither would the in hand work suggested above be.

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. My gut feeling says no, but I know there are a lot of horses which seem perfectly happy living in a box most of the time. But I also know of a barefoot horse which I sold with very strong feet (I was eventing him) who spent one winter on very restricted turnout and inadequate work and blew his collateral ligaments the first time he got a gallop about on his weakened feet after several days in.

 

[SEL]

This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.

^^^^ this.

I have 2 horses who come out of their stables after 8-10 hours looking crippled. They both get exercised / horse walker every day even with 24 hour turnout, so I dread to think what state they'd be in if they only got 2 hours exercise a day & no turnout. As it stands I only bring them in if the weather is so miserable I think staying out would make their conditions worse.

Neither are the type that do well with pure arena work & one can't see in the dark, so that is a pretty limiting factor!

For me 365 day turnout is a must. I'm realistic & when we had floods last year they were both in for 2 days and we muddled through. Our horse walker flooded as well unfortunately & the hacking tracks were impassable. Not a week I remember fondly!

 

[ljohnsonsj]

My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard. It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday. Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership. If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.

Same again, full time job and 2 x showjumpers in work 1 x 3yo I'm currently breaking. In the OPs situation unless she can get her own place I think it's very much made do and make mend with what she has if other yards aren't suitable.

 

[Damnation]

This is true. So I suppose what we come down to then is a very blunt question. Is it acceptable to keep horses in a stable for most of a 24 hour period without adequate exercise? Which also ties into what you would consider adequate exercise. For me, a horse walker is not adequate exercise and neither would the in hand work suggested above be.

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. My gut feeling says no, but I know there are a lot of horses which seem perfectly happy living in a box most of the time. But I also know of a barefoot horse which I sold with very strong feet (I was eventing him) who spent one winter on very restricted turnout and inadequate work and blew his collateral ligaments the first time he got a gallop about on his weakened feet after several days in.

Me too.

It is doable keeping horses in and I fully understand why it is done, land isn't cheap!

However, my mare doesn't cope well at all being in, overnight in a routine is fine but changes to her routine really upset her. She is never dangerous but when she is stressed she gets colitis. She would rather be out knee deep in mud and driving rain than in her stable and I fully believe as herd animals they need chance for a roll, a wander and a socialise for their own sanity's sake.

 

[Goldenstar]

Whats adequate
If you have work ( an hour ) limited turnout ( say two hours ) and the walker ( an hour )
I think horses need to two of those each day for it to be adequate not ideal by any strectch be they can get by on that .

I do think yards will need to rethink facilities and therefore the costs because you provide things like rolling pens hardstandings and the like without spending money and that has to be recovered in higher cost to the client .
If you live in the west which seems to be getting wetter and wetter this an issue that's very real .

 

[Damnation]

Whats adequate
If you have work ( an hour ) limited turnout ( say two hours ) and the walker ( an hour )
I think horses need to two of those each day for it to be adequate not ideal by any strectch be they can get by on that .

I do think yards will need to rethink facilities and therefore the costs because you provide things like rolling pens hardstandings and the like without spending money and that has to be recovered in higher cost to the client .
If you live in the west which seems to be getting wetter and wetter this an issue that's very real .

Definately.

I am happy to pay if I knew the yard had facilities that got horses out of their stables in winter. Whether that is 3-4 day a week turnout, or small turnout pens or a horse walker etc.

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

I thank my lucky stars I am fortunate to share fields with a friend. We rent a parcel of land with a barn and stables but all ours live out 24/7 and we do a lot of field/fence maintenance ourselves. Yes we have had mud issues in the wettest weather but it has recovered.

I personally like my ponies to live as they like, i.e. outside with access to shelter when needed. I wouldn't want to restrict them to grazing so in answer to the original post, I do feel for you but perhaps a weekend surveying the local area and asking other riders if they know of any grazing may help? I hope you find somewhere more suitable.

 

[be positive]

This is true. So I suppose what we come down to then is a very blunt question. Is it acceptable to keep horses in a stable for most of a 24 hour period without adequate exercise? Which also ties into what you would consider adequate exercise. For me, a horse walker is not adequate exercise and neither would the in hand work suggested above be.
.

I think there is a huge difference between keeping horses in a professional competition yard where they will be fully exercised during the day, possibly getting out several times even if it is only to be on a walker as an extra leg stretch in the afternoons, they will be groomed, maybe get a pick of grass at some point, have people and horses coming and going all day, and a full DIY yard where everyone works full time, no one is around all day and the horses are done in the dark at either end of the working day, even with the best of intentions the horse probably will not get sufficient exercise 5 days a week, they may fare better at the weekend, so these are the yards that do need to provide turnout every day or have a contingency in place.

I don't think it fair for any horse, other than one on box rest, to be shut in for 24 hours with a quick lunge or some in hand work being all the exercise they get, and to me a walker is an additional exercise not the only exercise, we wouldn't keep a dog with so little exercise and if a yard cannot provide somewhere for a proper exercise or turnout then they should not be offering or getting liveries.

I try not to restrict turn out too much, the odd day in if weather really bad, I think they were kept in one day last winter, most are ready to come in after lunch and as I am around I usually start bringing them in before they complain too much as it saves the fields, the school is well draining so fit for use in all but a very hard frost.

Going back to the OP no I don't think 1 hour per day is enough and I don't see how the average person can turn out for 1 hour if they are working full time, so will it be 1 hour or will it be the time the owner is there at one end of the day, horse turned out for the time it takes to do a stable etc for most that will be no more than 30 mins by the time they get out and come back in it will be hardly worth it.

 

[Annagain]

This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.

This. We have a 20x40 outdoor with one very basic floodlight that lights up about 2/3rd of the school properly and the rest just enough for it not to be dangerous. Our yard is small enough (and has enough people who work different hours) that access isn't an issue, but I have 2 20yr old horses who can't go in the school too often due to various issues. The roads around our yard are used as a rat run so hacking out before work is too dangerous. They're really busy with drivers who don't expect to see a horse (or don't care) from 7am onwards. Apart from these restrictions, even if I was the most committed rider, life gets in the way and makes riding every day impossible I work long hours in a job that is quite unpredictable. Some days I can go in early at 6am especially so I can get away by 4 and still not get out until 7-8pm if something kicks off. On a good day, I start at 8.30 - 9 and finish at 6. I also have a dog that needs walking and a husband who does like to see me now and again. This is why guaranteed turnout is so important to me so I'm not under pressure to HAVE to exercise every day.

 

[junglefairy]

Whats adequate
If you have work ( an hour ) limited turnout ( say two hours ) and the walker ( an hour )
I think horses need to two of those each day for it to be adequate not ideal by any strectch be they can get by on that .

I do think yards will need to rethink facilities and therefore the costs because you provide things like rolling pens hardstandings and the like without spending money and that has to be recovered in higher cost to the client .
If you live in the west which seems to be getting wetter and wetter this an issue that's very real .

Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way, groom and interact with other horses etc. I don't think a ride and time on a horse walker is any kind of substitute. There are significant mental and physical issues associated with not providing sufficient turnout. I'm genuinely astonished what people will put up with.

I'm in the SE, very close to London, and have 24/7 turnout year round. We're very lucky, but I also couldn't live with the guilt if my horse didn't get at least full day turnout in winter.

 

[Goldenstar]

Everybody would like all day turnout aviable all the time but it's just not for lots of people .
I am lucky my horses live at home and I can turnout whenever I choose .

 

[milliepops]

Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way, groom and interact with other horses etc. I don't think a ride and time on a horse walker is any kind of substitute. There are significant mental and physical issues associated with not providing sufficient turnout. I'm genuinely astonished what people will put up with.

well, in an ideal world it would be but even in many yards that say they offer daily turnout this isn't the case... my horses are in individual paddocks, and one has little to no grass to pick at this time of year... if I could hay outdoors then they'd stay out longer quite happily but they are now pleased to be caught in the afternoon.

I agree in principle; in practice I won't put my old girl in with another horse because she's too fragile, and my younger one will knock 7 bells out of anything else

In compensation they have well aired stables with views of other horses, ad lib forage fed from the ground and plenty of ridden exercise. Everything is a compromise in life. When the oldie gets too creaky for this routine I will seek out some grass livery for her and she will retire.

 

[honetpot]

This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.

When I was younger and I had a bit more oomph, I did not drive and the yard where I kept my horse was on the edge of High Peak, so they were in from October to April. My solution was to bring him home and he lived in the garage at the side of a semidetached house in the winter, I worked full time and I rode five days a week through double decker buses to get to the moor with a gallop once a week through the wood. I rode in snow, rain and wind, I didn't have a school, horse walker or even the edge of a flat farmers field, because I had looked after hunters it was an hour and a half solid road work( there wasn't anywhere else), a lot at trot. I hopped on him on the drive an we were straight on to the road that went past the supermarket and the chippy.
In Newmarket most of the horses have no turnout, the bigger yards have a horse walker, or a round pen but many do not and some are straight out onto Newmarket High street.
When we moved to somewhere more rural it was the same, no turnout in winter, perhaps an hour on a concrete yard, so when I rode he was worked, but even that was mostly road work, no school etc. It is hard work but it is possible you have to decide what is essential.
I think as long as there is somewhere, it doesn't have to be a field, for them to have an itch, roll, play and eat they are not really bothered, most of them are easily pleased thank goodness.

 

[meleeka]

Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way,

That's a whole other thread!

There's nothing remotely natural about the way many horses are kept. I'd rather have individual turnout than in a large, unstable herd, but neither are perfect.

For those that aren't allowed hay in fields. What is the reason given?

 

[Annagain]

That's a whole other thread!

There's nothing remotely natural about the way many horses are kept. I'd rather have individual turnout than in a large, unstable herd, but neither are perfect.

For those that aren't allowed hay in fields. What is the reason given?

On our yard it's to prevent squabbling over it, although I think they probably squabble more at the gate at coming in time because they're bored and hungry. The herds are actually very stable and settled so I don't think they would fight over it, they all know their place and generally sort things out without too much disagreement.

 

[hairycob]

Re what liveries are prepared to pay & stocking levels. I used to be at a yard where there were a max of 7 horses - YO used to have more but as liveries we decided to split the cost of spaces between us as they came up to improve the turnout. We already paid top rate (before the extra) for DIY in the area despite having no arena but because the turnover was good with the restricted numbers we were happy. We got in our own hay, sorted our own fences etc, it was very DIY. Worked great until the YO decided to retire & another member of the family took over. Within a few weeks there were 16 horses on the yard as they were dabbling in (bottom end) dealing. 10 was really pushing the grazing, never mind the biosecurity issues. That was one of the major reasons why 3 months down the line they lost the lot of us on 1 day. There were other issues but they all had the same root in their attitude to horses & customers. So it's not always stingy liveries that are at fault.

 

[paddy555]

Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way, groom and interact with other horses etc. I don't think a ride and time on a horse walker is any kind of substitute. There are significant mental and physical issues associated with not providing sufficient turnout. I'm genuinely astonished what people will put up with.

I'm in the SE, very close to London, and have 24/7 turnout year round. We're very lucky, but I also couldn't live with the guilt if my horse didn't get at least full day turnout in winter.

I agree. Time on the walker or being exercised is what the human wants. What about what the horse wants? Standing in a nice deep bed with lots of hay is great overnight when it is pissing down and I am sure the horse is grateful. It is not so nice when he is doing it for 22 hours a day week after week. I would question if that is an acceptable way to keep a horse.

 

[paddi22]

yeah i agree, i think if i was stuck in a yard with limited turnout (and the horse wasn't in medium/heavy work) then i'd prefer to turn the horse away 24/7 on grass livery over winter, even if it was a distance away.

 

[HashRouge]

The fact the YO is in the High Peak and mentions a yard with a track system makes me think I know exactly where she is. If it's where I think, it is particularly bad for winter turnout due to the soil type. There are definitely one or two yards in that area that have decent winter turnout - as far as I know, one of them is grass livery and horses are out all winter. However, there are better options for livery if you go slightly further into the National Park.

 

[Ponio_lover]

Reading this thread I seem to be at the only yard in the NW without 24/7 turnout in summer!!! However we do get daily turnout nearly 365 days a year. Sometimes I feel a bit sad when she's coming in a 4pm on a nice summers day, however it more than makes up for it that we don't get half the year out, then half the year stuck in.
I couldn't be without winter turnout, even if it's just half a day in winter.
And for anyone wondering she's on full livery as I work away. I need the turnout for both our sakes!

 

[rachk89]

I love my yard. 24/7 turnout 6 months of the year, restricted the other 6 (winter months obviously). Most horses come in at night over winter but there aren't enough stables for all so some stay out. Fields seem to cope well but we are far north so they freeze more often than flood. It's one of the more expensive places in the area but by far the best. Proper fences rather than the flimsy electric ones. Nice stables inside a barn. Outdoor arena that is floodlit and small indoor. The YO does prefer people aren't there too late as otherwise you disturb the horses (it's odd actually how shocked they are to see a person after hours didn't think they would mind so much) but otherwise no restrictions. People do complain but really I think they are silly problems that they generally do forget about. We are luckier than most in the area I saw all of the other places and would not put my horse anywhere else. Thank god they haven't made us leave yet thanks to the horses antics (they love his weirdness really).

I wouldn't put him somewhere where turnout was restricted. He would hate it to be honest and be really bored. He would put up with it ok I guess he wouldn't go mental but he would be depressed. At the last place he didn't get turnout for a few days one time because it was really icy so dangerous to take them to the fields. They just let them out into the outdoor arena with 1 other horse for a run around and they all took it in turns. It was the best the yard could do in the circumstances I wouldn't have wanted any of them to walk up the icy hill just to go into the fields it was too dangerous for them.

 

[Boulty]

I'm West Yorks and I have the same issues re finding yards that allow daily winter turnouts whose fields aren't absolute mudbaths (I don't mind a bit but when over half the field is getting on for knee deep due to too many horses in too small a space on clay soil I feel that is taking the pee!) and who will also feed hay when the grass runs out! I think as many say the issue is that people are finding they have to overstock to some degree if they want to make money (less of an issue if the yard is more of a hobby / the owner just wants a few horses as company for their own as in these situations covering of upkeep costs seem acceptable)

This is gonna cause some eye rolling but in the last few years I've taken my horse barefoot (due to injury) and become aware of the concept of track systems and providing turnout on hardcore / concrete topped with surfaces such as pea gravel, woodchip or road planings. I happen to think that in wet and poorly draining areas (or even just areas where there are too many horses for the land) this could be an excellent solution. Doesn't need to be madly expensive once the groundwork is done depending on how basic or complicated you want to make it and how big an area (and a lot of yard owners know someone who knows someone with a digger / tractor) although does of course require the commitment to feed hay whilst horses are in there! I guess it is a large initial outlay but then so is an arena and a lot of yards are happy to invest in that... Really really hoping that this is a concept that eventually does catch on (esp if things continue to get wetter!)

I also agree that a lot of yards seem scared of charging properly in case of people leaving.

Re costs... I'd pay in the region of £50 a week for DIY with 24/7 t/o year round as long as horse has access to shelter and some hardstanding and I'd be happy to pay extra on top when hay is needed and of course buy own feed and assist with poo picking and such. (I'd pay a little less for stabled durign day but guaranteed t/o as I'd need to factor bedding costs in) I'd pay up to £100 per week for full grass livery year round (ie horse is looked after and fed and rugs changed, hay included and given as needed, all field maintenance done by owner of yard) with the same stipulations as above. I'd go a little higher for surfaced track system / surfaced turnout pens. Slight awkwardness if that my horse needs to come off grass during day in Spring / Summer but a trashed bit of field / a shelter that can be shut off would achieve this if no stable...

 

[be positive]

Boulty you sound like a very realistic owner, if you want to move to Somerset you can have full grass livery all year, with a stable available for your use at any time, a restricted area in the summer would be no problem as long as your horse is happy in with one or two others, I don't really like individual turnout unless it is absolutely essential and always have an unshod fatty that will be happy to share.