Even more livery yards moving towards banning winter turnout?

[YorksG]

I agree it's the dilemma of our time .
I think about it lots .
Planning permissions are going through all the time round here building over horsey land .
I am in my mid fifties and I think the best time for horse ownership has passed .
I learnt to ride in a lovely old fashioned riding school , most of those have gone and H and S would make impossible to teach as they did ................

Where will the generation of riders learn are we going back to you needing horsey parents to learn really well .
Will horses return to being things only the rich can truly have unless your born onto a farm or something like that .........
.

Absolutely agree with this.

 

[paddi22]

same here, we ended up moving up the mountains so we'd have space and freedom.

But realistically, if i lived in a built up area and only had the option of a limited turnout, i'd have to say i WOULD be a hypocrite and take it- as my urge to have a horse would make me muffle any notions that the horse was suffering. I'd see the deep beds, good feed and supplements, care it gets, and i'd file away any thought's it might be unhappy. And then i'd go home and watch the Blackfish documentary and be horrified how an animal could be kept in limited space, lol!

 

[honetpot]

There is no need for them to stuck in a 12x12 box, we have to devise systems that improve horse welfare. Someone probably a couple hundred years ago, when labour was cheap and straw was a waste product, decided that we should put horses in boxes. This was probably the same time we were sending small boys up chimneys.
Mine live in open sheds over the winter, with a drained outside area, they can wander around as much as they like. There are studies that look how horses interact indoors in groups and how we can improve things. We are just going to have to adapt.
http://www4.ntu.ac.uk/apps/news/170559-15/Horses_stabled_alone_show_signs_of_stress_study_shows.aspx

 

[paddi22]

oh cheers for that link honeypot, was looking for something like that

 

[TheMule]

I personally would never keep my horse in for long periods of time as I just don't think it's accaptable. My lot live out but it took me a fair bit of work to find a manageable way to do that and I am lucky to live in a good part of the country for it. If I lived somewhere wetter/ more limited in land, I'd choose to barn keep my horses through the winter so they had more space and social interaction

 

[ycbm]

I personally would never keep my horse in for long periods of time as I just don't think it's accaptable. My lot live out but it took me a fair bit of work to find a manageable way to do that and I am lucky to live in a good part of the country for it. If I lived somewhere wetter/ more limited in land, I'd choose to barn keep my horses through the winter so they had more space and social interaction

But how can anyone 'choose' to barn keep if, even in a cheap part of the country, a big barn plus a little land would cost £100,000 and no livery offers that way of keeping a horse?

 

[ycbm]

There is no need for them to stuck in a 12x12 box, we have to devise systems that improve horse welfare. Someone probably a couple hundred years ago, when labour was cheap and straw was a waste product, decided that we should put horses in boxes. This was probably the same time we were sending small boys up chimneys.
Mine live in open sheds over the winter, with a drained outside area, they can wander around as much as they like. There are studies that look how horses interact indoors in groups and how we can improve things. We are just going to have to adapt.
http://www4.ntu.ac.uk/apps/news/170559-15/Horses_stabled_alone_show_signs_of_stress_study_shows.aspx

It's a very interesting study, but I have one horse here who would go barking mad if you changed the way you were keeping him every five days. They need to do this research on much larger groups of horses which do not have their management changed after five days. Horses appear to me to be more upset by change than anything, and capable of settling to some conditions which are far less than ideal.

 

[paddi22]

yeah its probably an impossible task to change existing yards. Would be interesting to see if there was any way to encourage/implement it going forward.

 

[ShadowHunter]

Im lucky that i have my horses at home. They lived out 24/7 from March till mid-September this year; now there in at night but out for 9 hours ish. My dad wont let them have 24/7 in winter due to them trashing the land too much so we compromise. Threads like this remind me how good i have it and thats sad. However; i would certainly not shoot my horses if turnout got a little more restrictive!

I am surprised (very surprised) that people are under the illusion that just anyone can have a horse. They are expensive to keep, always have been, always will. Now would people be willing to have their livery bill tripled (probably) so that YO's can afford to run less horses? A few on here have said they would but i bet the vast majority wouldn't. How many YO's on here have empty boxes as there prices are realistic? Yes, there is a problem with YO's overstocking but the fault also lies with the livery too in some respect.

 

[elsielouise]

I like how this thread has expressed opinions yet not degenerated into offences against individual owner's horse keeping methods. I posted earlier about how I would/will only keep two or three liveries to maintain quality of turnout. However I wanted to comment following on from posts comparing the husbandry of different species to add opinion that I couldnt keep horses if 24/7 or thereabouts hours of stabling was my only option.

Not intended to criticise others who may disagree but which comes first? The desire to keep a horse under any circumstance or the wellbeing of the horse itself?

 

[TheMule]

But how can anyone 'choose' to barn keep if, even in a cheap part of the country, a big barn plus a little land would cost £100,000 and no livery offers that way of keeping a horse?

Well, I think I'd be speaking nicely to a few local farmers with crossed fingers!
And plenty of livery places offer that for youngstock already. I've replicated it to a point on my own land with a huge run in field shelter set within an all-weather pen. My set up with 7.5 acres of land cost far less than 100k!

 

[rachk89]

I wouldn't ever put my horse out on individual turnout again unless for rehab from an injury. He gets depressed very quickly and it's horrible to see. Some horses prefer it most don't.

I have kept him in a stable with periods of being let out to walk on a lead for 2-3 weeks under vet instructions too. He handled it well shockingly and it was necessary or the injury would have never healed (it was a deep cut on the joint of his fetlock so any time he moved it reopened). It wasn't nice having to do it but my other option was let him continuously bleed. I think not haha. He handledyit well when he had cellulitis too but he was allowed outpto a small holding paddock then as limited movement helped. But he was feeling too ill to care so it didnt matter then either to him. It would only be for injuries or like previously said when getting to the field could result in an injury.

Some horses are capable of handling being in a stable well and do know when they are ill. I would rather keep them in a stable than let him out to a field to make everything worse but he is just that type of horse he would give himself a bigger injury.

 

[meleeka]

30 years ago I was on a yard with no turnout (because it was a 'posh' yard, although none of the small yards nearby had much turnout either). I think it was more the norm then than it is now. I didn't know any different so didn't question it. When I moved to a field my pony suffered, she wasn't used to other horses nor was she prepared for mud, which she had never had to live in. I ended up paying more to keep her in a small field on her own until I got my own rented field.

I do remember a friends horse being PTS for being 'broken winded' when these days we've learnt that changing management and turning out more is all that was needed.

 

[Flame_]

I started my horse owning life as a townie on DIY yards in pretty built up areas with little land and little to no winter turnout. Flamey said that was unacceptable and I found my way into Cheshire before I was killed... She taught me a lot that way.

One thing I remember that was extremely useful in the winter was being on a yard against a housing estate. I thought nothing of hacking round the roads at 7.00pm in the middle of winter because they were all lit with street lights, 30mph zones and they didn't lead anywhere except to more houses. Just about any weather conditions except snow, and riding at night for a decent length of time was still possible, but it's not on the pitch black rat runs in rural areas. So, just a thought but maybe this is the future once the countryside is totally covered with housing estates!

 

[Leo Walker]

Thats very similar to some of my experiences as a child, although we did have turnout, we just wanted to ride lots! The hacking was terrible so we spent lots of time pavement pounding round housing estates at all times of the day and night

 

[honetpot]

oh cheers for that link honeypot, was looking for something like that

I would recommend http://www.thehorse.com/
I get and email newsletter, they round up all the studies that have been done. Some where there must be a grant to study just about anything. Like who knew fat ponies were naughtier, well most PC mums, but now there is a study that shows it.
They have a lot of articles about management and I have found them to be of a more professional standard than UK ones.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/32414/frequent-feeding-reduces-group-housed-horses-aggression
Also,
http://equusmagazine.com/blog/world-horse-welfare-reacts-social-aspects-stables-27839

 

[teapot]

The horse I rode over the winter months was in 24/7 and it was my first time dealing with anything that had been in for that amount of time. There is no way I could ever subject a horse to that. I appreciate some settle to it more than others, and it comes with a whole host of factors, but it impacted on said horse so much, that the day I finally managed to get him a few hours of leg stretch, I was almost in tears I was so happy for him. He was becoming dangerous as a result of being cooped up. I hope we have a dry winter otherwise he'll be in again, poor sod. With careful land management, he could have had a good few hours out every day but...

There are two yards close to me that offer 24/7 grazing 365 days a year, one is very reasonably priced; the other is £600 odd a month for full livery. That said, given its management, facilities, hacking, and acreage, if I was in the market for a horse, with the money available to pay a livery bill like that, I would do so in a heartbeat - good things come at a price.

As an aside, I'm on work experience at the moment and went out to a livery yard - seeing the industry from a professional costs side was eye opening. What's included, what isn't, costs of maintenance etc. There's so much that some horse owners take for granted.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I'm really lucky to live in an area where at least daily turn-out is the norm as our soils a fairly well draining and exceptionally good if on chalk downland. I sympathise with those in heavy clay areas as I know they are a nightmare to manage.

I'd be really interested to know what those of you who own and or manage land would consider a fair price for good well-managed fields? I keep hearing that horse owners aren't prepared to pay the rate required to provide this.

In my mind it makes no sense for most sensible horse owners not to pay for this because we spend a lot more money on bedding and extra hay if we don't have at least some daily turn-out. Coupled with behavioural issues, trying to fit daily exercise in and treat things like mud-fever it makes financial and practical sense to pay that bit extra. On my current yard we've even said to our YM that we'd all rather pay more than have our grazing reduced.

 

[ycbm]

My gut feel worked out on the back of a fag packet is that the proper price for good size fields, post and rail fenced with electric guard wire, rotated, rested and cross grazed with sheep, with well set gates and hardcore gateways, no poo picking duties, should cost a minimum of fifty pounds a week. Sixty if there is use of a stable. Seventy if there is use of a good arena.

And add another 20% of you are grossing more than £86,000 because then you must charge vat.

That would provide a fair return for the capital invested, the costs, and the work involved.

 

[Limbo1]

We have all year turnout but we are on a sandy hill. I have 2 horses and 2 ponies on 6 acres. In theory I could have 1 more on the land but it would suffer. I am also lucky as the horses are generally well mannered do not trash ground round gates etc. If I had horses trashing the ground I would have to manage it differently. I have 1 livery she fits in with how I manage it but we decide together things like moving from winter to summer field and when to feed hay etc.

Could you look for a private yard? I have a rule that I don't want her here before 6 am but think that is not unreasonable!

 

[Antw23uk]

My last livery yard before my boy went on loan had very limited turnout during the winter. They have now built trash pens and have a horse walker so everything gets a leg stretch during the day and then ideally you would also ride daily albeit in the indoor school or up and down the mile long driveway. All doable with my lad whose an ex hunter so used to spending lots of time inside and has a level head on him. Some of the horses towards the end were dangerous to handle and totally losing it, it wasnt fun and took forever for field turnout to arrive (there is no 24/7 summer turnout either. Its a fantastic yard and if i had to go back to livery i wouldnt want to be anywhere else.

I now have my boy back off loan and at home for the first time ever (new house, came with land and stables) so winter will be a challenge I imagine but one I'm looking forward to (he says now, lol!) It was a basic three stables, one feed room block sitting on a concrete pad so I've enclosed the yard with one gate entrance and two slip rail entrances so i can alternative the in and out off the yard to help reduce muddy gateways. If the weather is bad he will be kept on the yard with the stable door open but I dont plan on closing him in that stable at all this winter.

 

[Damnation]

I've enjoyed this thread but it amazes me how casual people are that YO should put in all weather areas so they can turn out when in some cases they are paying peanuts but don't want their costs to go up.

My yard is cheap, but I would pay triple to stay on it.

My gut feel worked out on the back of a fag packet is that the proper price for good size fields, post and rail fenced with electric guard wire, rotated, rested and cross grazed with sheep, with well set gates and hardcore gateways, no poo picking duties, should cost a minimum of fifty pounds a week. Sixty if there is use of a stable. Seventy if there is use of a good arena.

And add another 20% of you are grossing more than £86,000 because then you must charge vat.

That would provide a fair return for the capital invested, the costs, and the work involved.

I paid £50 per week for a yard once on assisted DIY. YO fed and turned out in winter which she insisted on, there way no way of doing mornings myself, fields were cross grazed with sheep, an arena with no light so unusable in winter, no worming programme (all horses turned out together and trying to find out when she wormed hers so we could do ours was like plucking hens teeth), cattle fencing with barbed wire everywhere, no rotation or resting, no poo picking as she had a quad and harrow (which I often did), and fields you literally couldn't walk in in winter (I got stuck up to my knee once!), if you horse didn't come to the gate then don't even bother trying. Oh and did I mention 30+ border collies that could get into the fields with the horses? Field gates to the road left open by YO so horses could get out onto the road, stuff stolen constantly by dogs because she left doors open after we had closed them. (My brand new £50 grooming kit was taken by dogs never to be seen again along with stable bandages, boots, you name it.) shearing sheep in my stable resulting in about £30-£40 worth of bedding having to come out and that is just the tip of the iceberg for that place, I could go on for weeks! I hasten to add nothing was ever replaced, not even an apology. If you horse was tied up on the yard when she let her dogs out? Tough, there was no warning, you'd have to either fend the dogs away from your horse or try and get into a stable ASAP.

That is the worst yard I have ever been on, and the most expensive - go figure?

Now I would have happily paid that price for DIY with all year turnout (daytime winter turnout) and a stable, but the way I was treated was disgusting.

 

[baran]

Having just read the whole thread....it would appear that horse keeping in the future will be confined to the very rich.....haven't we been here before?

I am not sure what your point is. Running a Porsche is confined to the very rich. Are you suggesting somehow people are entitled to own a horse?

 

[cobgoblin]

I am not sure what your point is. Running a Porsche is confined to the very rich. Are you suggesting somehow people are entitled to own a horse?

No. I'm suggesting that in the future, with the extreme pressures on land for housing and infrastructure...which will also lead to higher feed, forage and livery prices...that even those on good salaries will struggle to pay to keep a horse for leisure. In fact, it may not even be feasible to keep a horse for leisure at all as increased urbanisation will severely restrict access to bridle ways and open land. If riding merely consists of arena work, or being fortunate (or wealthy) enough to be able to afford to live near a national park ( if access is still allowed) then many leisure riders would lose interest.
Hunting in any form would be long gone for the same reasons. I'm sure competition riding would still exist in some form, but as most of the large shows depend on an interested horsey public buying tickets...maybe not.
Owning a house with land will end up so expensive that only the very rich will be able to afford it.

BTW....a Porsche is a lot cheaper to keep than a horse....I used to have one.

 

[windand rain]

The way I see it you should try staying in your bathroom for 23 hours a day and see how long you last someone could provide food, you would have on tap water to drink, room to lie down just the only activity you could have would be eating, sleeping and using the toilet. Might change your mindset a bit. As to horses preferring to be in my guess would be that is habituation not choice. Most can adapt to which ever regime you use but it wont necessarily make them happy.
I do think that perhaps if we cannot provide the necessary regime to keep a horse as near to nature as possible given the constraints of riding them we should perhaps not keep them at all. Trouble is that it is cheaper to own a horse now than it it to have lessons for a family so more people do own and the resultant ignorance it astounding. Having said that the haphazzard way some horse are kept seems to work as it seems the best kept seem to be the ones most easily broken. Or perhaps it just that they don't notice

 

[Sussexbythesea]

My gut feel worked out on the back of a fag packet is that the proper price for good size fields, post and rail fenced with electric guard wire, rotated, rested and cross grazed with sheep, with well set gates and hardcore gateways, no poo picking duties, should cost a minimum of fifty pounds a week. Sixty if there is use of a stable. Seventy if there is use of a good arena.

And add another 20% of you are grossing more than £86,000 because then you must charge vat.

That would provide a fair return for the capital invested, the costs, and the work involved.

Thanks - on a train to London now.

I currently pay £150 pcm for your most expensive option although we have good electric tape and wooden post fencing and do our own poo-picking. We have a 30x60 rubber arena, large stables and second to none hacking. Heated tack room and rug room. It's individual turn-out and we have two large paddocks per horse which we can use as we wish. They were both harrowed, rolled, and one lot sprayed, fertilised and reseeded this year. I feel incredibly lucky to have all this but would you believe some of the liveries still moan and one requested that the yard supply a washing machine!

I'd happily pay more for this - I could comfortably pay an extra £50 a month and less comfortably a bit more than that.

It's part of a much larger estate handed down through generations and anything needing doing is covered by existing estate staff and estate equipment so I guess that this minimises their costs considerably, even so I think they under charge.

 

[Antw23uk]

I am not sure what your point is. Running a Porsche is confined to the very rich. Are you suggesting somehow people are entitled to own a horse?

I did a stint working for VW Finance ... you would be amazed at how many porches, Bentley's and the like are being driven around on higher purchase, lol!

 

[paddi22]

I have sympathy for livery owners who feel the need to keep lowering prices. It must be frustrating to have to do, especially when you see posters complaining about livery costs on one hand and then in another post talk about the crazy expensive supplements and best quality food they use. Must be very frustrating.

I hate doing the old 'hark back to the old days' but when you look at the amount of commercialisation and the amount of unnecessary stuff people buy today, it does make you long for the old days where everything was more basic and people had minimal equipment which was used non stop. If i was a livery owner, my thoughts would be if the liveries can but freejump stirrups etc, they can afford an extra tenner surely.

 

[milliepops]

The way I see it you should try staying in your bathroom for 23 hours a day and see how long you last someone could provide food, you would have on tap water to drink, room to lie down just the only activity you could have would be eating, sleeping and using the toilet. Might change your mindset a bit. As to horses preferring to be in my guess would be that is habituation not choice. Most can adapt to which ever regime you use but it wont necessarily make them happy.

I agree in principle that it would be lovely to keep all horses in giant fields in herds. Let's make that clear :lol:

But what does the average horse do all day? Eat, sleep and poo. We have to be absolutely clear that as owners we need to meet their needs, but I'm pretty sure my horses aren't wishing they had more fulfilled lives - they don't wish they had a job or could give to charity or go to the library, or watch a film etc as I might to if I was shut in the bathroom.

I'm exaggerating, but we also say horses like and thrive off routine, they are prey animals so they need to feel *safe* not constantly stimulated. I'm a firm believer in allowing as much freedom as possible as it's good for their bodies but we shouldn't get diverted into thinking they are bored etc.

As an aside, I wonder whether viewpoints are different for owners of entires (mares and stallions) and geldings?
I never ever see my girls play. Nor the other mares in the yard. Head down eating, or looking our for monsters. The geldings will have a funny 5 minutes now and again though.

 

[Maesfen]

As an aside, I wonder whether viewpoints are different for owners of entires (mares and stallions) and geldings?
I never ever see my girls play. Nor the other mares in the yard. Head down eating, or looking our for monsters. The geldings will have a funny 5 minutes now and again though.

Don't you believe it; mares play as hard as the boys - at least mine have done!