Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner

[Emma_H]

It just makes me so sad. I've been following all weekend and am heartbroken that this happened.

 

[Swirlymurphy]

Very sorry indeed. Thought there was perhaps a freedom of thought/consideration. clearly not.

I thought it was an interesting comparison, thank you Clara

 

[honetpot]

I thought it was an interesting comparison, thank you Clara

Me to.

 

[brucea]

that said, there are those who would judge me for sending my horses off to heaven when they can no longer serve a useful purpose.

Can't fault you for that if that is what you want to do. We've chosen to tread another path with the ones who can't really work any more, recognising the important supporting role they play in the herd.

Indeed, but Scottish Mental Health Law is not the same as England and Wales, we lost the 'treatability' clause in 2007, still a grey area Mad or Bad?

Where on earth did this learned discussion on psychopathy/sociopathy emerge? Apart from someone calling a bloke they have never met a psycopath?

You can't "treat" a personality disorder like that because nothing has gone "wrong" with the person, that is just how they are, like some people are born with six toes. There is no "disorder" as such because they are fully functional.

I doubt you have met a real social psychopath. I have, and they are extremely charming and delightful people, until you are on he receiving end of what they do. Once the scales fall from your eyes, it is deeply disturbing and shocking to comprehend what they are actually doing. Even more frightening is the complete lack of insight they have into their own behaviour.

Not a set of labels to bandy around lightly

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Can't fault you for that if that is what you want to do. We've chosen to tread another path with the ones who can't really work any more, recognising the important supporting role they play in the herd.



Where on earth did this learned discussion on psychopathy/sociopathy emerge? Apart from someone calling a bloke they have never met a psycopath?

You can't "treat" a personality disorder like that because nothing has gone "wrong" with the person, that is just how they are, like some people are born with six toes. There is no "disorder" as such because they are fully functional.

I doubt you have met a real social psychopath. I have, and they are extremely charming and delightful people, until you are on he receiving end of what they do. Once the scales fall from your eyes, it is deeply disturbing and shocking to comprehend what they are actually doing. Even more frightening is the complete lack of insight they have into their own behaviour.

Not a set of labels to bandy around lightly

Agree that PD and disorders is not to be used lightly, and amateur diagnosis is not to be attempted. Though under the MHA PD is actually classed as a mental disorder now.

 

[cptrayes]

I agree with this. I take it the CPS would be the prosecutor and unless they are pretty sure to get a conviction they are unlikely to take the case any further.

CPS would prosecute the harassment/alarm/distress behaviour as a public order offence for which there would be a minor penalty.

DEFRA would prosecute any offence in failing to dispose of waste properly, if there is one and if they think it is worth doing.

RSPCA would prosecute animal cruelty, but they have already made a public statement that there was none.

The horses owner could certainly take action if they had the means and the will .

Yes but against whom? It seems to me that her claim for compensation would have to be against the loaner who entered into the agreement , not against the man who carried out his side of the bargain.

 

[Clara Mo 3]

Not at all, but I think the picture is more complex than that. Debate on here has been strong as it is without muddying the waters making comparisons with topics that get people going.

So, here we are on a Horse and HOUND site and we aren't allowed to make a comparison with a legitimate fact simply because it mentions hunting, and you don't like it ?? Its not muddying the waters, its a fact - according to those who seem to know some law on this thread - that our pets are worthless, less value than a wild animal according to the law of our country.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

So, here we are on a Horse and HOUND site and we aren't allowed to make a comparison with a legitimate fact simply because it mentions hunting, and you don't like it ?? Its not muddying the waters, its a fact - according to those who seem to know some law on this thread - that our pets are worthless, less value than a wild animal according to the law of our country.

Have said my last words on this, you know my views

 

[YorksG]

Where on earth did this learned discussion on psychopathy/sociopathy emerge? Apart from someone calling a bloke they have never met a psycopath?

You can't "treat" a personality disorder like that because nothing has gone "wrong" with the person, that is just how they are, like some people are born with six toes. There is no "disorder" as such because they are fully functional.

I doubt you have met a real social psychopath. I have, and they are extremely charming and delightful people, until you are on he receiving end of what they do. Once the scales fall from your eyes, it is deeply disturbing and shocking to comprehend what they are actually doing. Even more frightening is the complete lack of insight they have into their own behaviour.

Not a set of labels to bandy around lightly[/QUOTE]

The last phrase was rather my point, and as a Mental Health Social Worker of over 30 years, I think I have met a few. The law now dictates that people with a PD can be detained, which they could not previously, as prior to 2007 people could only be detained for treatment, which, as you point out is probably innapropriate

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Where on earth did this learned discussion on psychopathy/sociopathy emerge? Apart from someone calling a bloke they have never met a psycopath?

You can't "treat" a personality disorder like that because nothing has gone "wrong" with the person, that is just how they are, like some people are born with six toes. There is no "disorder" as such because they are fully functional.

I doubt you have met a real social psychopath. I have, and they are extremely charming and delightful people, until you are on he receiving end of what they do. Once the scales fall from your eyes, it is deeply disturbing and shocking to comprehend what they are actually doing. Even more frightening is the complete lack of insight they have into their own behaviour.

Not a set of labels to bandy around lightly

The last phrase was rather my point, and as a Mental Health Social Worker of over 30 years, I think I have met a few. The law now dictates that people with a PD can be detained, which they could not previously, as prior to 2007 people could only be detained for treatment, which, as you point out is probably innapropriate[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the observation, maybe you could pop up to the GG with the section papers

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Where on earth did this learned discussion on psychopathy/sociopathy emerge? Apart from someone calling a bloke they have never met a psycopath?

……..

…….. labels ……..

As you say, 'Labels'. Decanters carry labels, so's we don't mistake the spirits for the wines. With people perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to ascribe.

Alec.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes but against whom? It seems to me that her claim for compensation would have to be against the loaner who entered into the agreement , not against the man who carried out his side of the bargain.

Against whoever ordered the destruction of her property , that's not the loaner .
You can't damage people things willy nilly because you have a dispute with a third party .
You can't sell a loan horse to recover a debt because the loaner has not paid so it follows you can't have it shot either .

 

[Clara Mo 3]

Have said my last words on this, you know my views

We certainly do....since you were accusing me of starting an unhappy debate....and you were the only one debating it LOL. ;-)

 

[Kathrynn]

Can't believe what I am hearing on a horse forum, why speculate. Get the facts and then form opinions. There is a huge campaign to parliament and even the royals to make an example of this idiot who shot the horse. He isn't mentally sick just sick in the head and the gun should have backfired in his face. Carried out nothing only brutal Unhumane murder of a horse he had no right to even touch. The cps are also petitioned to charge and impose maximum penalties outside of the sentencing guidelines.

 

[Bestdogdash]

Huge amounts of hand wringing and angst on this subject. Lot of talk the talk - how about a bit of walk the walk ? I suggest that a peaceful demonstration/picket line is happens outside the gates of GG livery for a long as possible, and this chap is hit in the only place it can hurt him - his pocket. The legal arguments are well rehearsed here, and he will get no more than a fine and slap on the wrist for criminal damage, if that.

I personally can't get away from, whatever the rights and wrongs of both sides of the arguments, that this person loaded a dead/dying horse in a JCB bucket and dumped it in the front garden of a suburban street. Seriously ? Who on earth does he think he is ? Where are we living ?

It is entirely legal to demonstrate against this outside his business premises - and let him know directly the consequence of his actions to his business. So, to all of those on this thread with such a lot of chat, how about it ? I personally would turn up (and I am not remotely local) and parade with a placard. You change with things you don't like by using your voice and taking peaceful legal action. Want to make sure it doesn't happen again ? Close his business down.

Do you hear the people sing ? Walk the walk


#Rosa Parks / Mahatma Ghandi / Martin Luther King / Nelson Mandela

 

[cptrayes]

Against whoever ordered the destruction of her property , that's not the loaner .
You can't damage people things willy nilly because you have a dispute with a third party .
You can't sell a loan horse to recover a debt because the loaner has not paid so it follows you can't have it shot either .

I wish you were a lawyer and we knew if you were right. Of course you can't sell a horse to recover a debt without following procedure. He wasn't recovering a debt, he was fulfilling his side of a contract with the loaner.

 

[cptrayes]

Can't believe what I am hearing on a horse forum, why speculate. Get the facts and then form opinions. There is a huge campaign to parliament and even the royals to make an example of this idiot who shot the horse. He isn't mentally sick just sick in the head and the gun should have backfired in his face. Carried out nothing only brutal Unhumane murder of a horse he had no right to even touch. The cps are also petitioned to charge and impose maximum penalties outside of the sentencing guidelines.

The CPS do not impose the penalty, Magistrates or a District Judge will, if he is found guilty, and they will, as they should, stick to the sentencing guidelines in order to ensure that we do not go back to the days of mob rule. That petition is completely pointless.

 

[NeilM]

That petition is completely pointless.

Not entirely.

It may be misdirected, but if there is enough of an outpouring of feeling regarding this matter, both for Kit and for any other equine that has suffered a similar fate, then that outpouring alone could be used to raise awareness. Whether any actions ever come of it, and frankly I doubt it, is another (political) matter. But this whole sorry episode does highlight a hole in the existing laws that many kept animals have value to the owner which far exceeds their financial worth.

At the civil level, I would have thought there was a justified claim for compensation, but it needs a solicitor and money in order to pursue a claim, it also requires the person being sued to have money in order to pay any settlement, otherwise you may end up with a victory, but no penalty for the perpetrator.

 

[cptrayes]

Not entirely.

It may be misdirected, but if there is enough of an outpouring of feeling regarding this matter, both for Kit and for any other equine that has suffered a similar fate, then that outpouring alone could be used to raise awareness. Whether any actions ever come of it, and frankly I doubt it, is another (political) matter. But this whole sorry episode does highlight a hole in the existing laws that many kept animals have value to the owner which far exceeds their financial worth.

Yes, and that is why I have started a proper gov.UK petition which starts after it has been officially approved, to have the true value of pets and horses recognized in law. That petition will be worth signing, and I will be promoting it as soon as it is live. I think if it gets 100,000 signatures it has to be presented to 10 Downing Street, so we'll have to work at it.

 

[NeilM]

Yes, and that is why I have started a proper gov.UK petition which starts after it has been officially approved to have the true value of pets and horses recognized in law. That petition will be worth signing, and I will be promoting it as soon as it is live.

Another instant petition to have this man hung drawn and quartered will get us nowhere.

I've seen your other posts about the petition, and I will be signing it as soon as it is live, as I hope will everyone on this forum.

In the meantime, it is good that people feel so angered and outraged by this man's actions, that the are trying any and all means they can to draw it to the attention of the Govt. and it's many departments.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I've seen your other posts about the petition, and I will be signing it as soon as it is live, as I hope will everyone on this forum.

In the meantime, it is good that people feel so angered and outraged by this man's actions, that the are trying any and all means they can to draw it to the attention of the Govt. and it's many departments.

I would also be interested in signing - Am I right in thinking that if you post the details (once approved) on this thread all who have posted on here will get an email alert? Thanks

 

[cptrayes]

I would also be interested in signing - Am I right in thinking that if you post the details (once approved) on this thread all who have posted on here will get an email alert? Thanks

Not unless they have the alert set in their profile. I'll start another thread anyway. I wish it was quicker, but that's the penalty of using the official one

This has got to be changed, you can't compare putting a dent in someone car with killing their horse or cat but that's the law as it stands, money value only.

 

[Goldenstar]

I wish you were a lawyer and we knew if you were right. Of course you can't sell a horse to recover a debt without following procedure. He wasn't recovering a debt, he was fulfilling his side of a contract with the loaner.

I say again you cannot make a contract outside the law .
Now we don't know exactly what's happened here but a non payer needs to be served with a eviction notice or a abandonment notice needs to be posted whichever is appropriate.
And it was not the loaners horse the owner of the horse had no contract of any type with the yard owner he had no form of redress for debt using the horse you cannot sell another's property to recover debt from a third party.
People who runs businesses know these things it's part of life having non payers.
If I was running a yard now I would be very wary of loans and would have a contract that established exactly who the horse belonged to and I would have the contract with them jointly so I could hold them jointly liable for any non payment.

 

[cptrayes]

I say again you cannot make a contract outside the law .
Now we don't know exactly what's happened here but a non payer needs to be served with a eviction notice or a abandonment notice needs to be posted whichever is appropriate.
And it was not the loaners horse the owner of the horse had no contract of any type with the yard owner he had no form of redress for debt using the horse you cannot sell another's property to recover debt from a third party.
People who runs businesses know these things it's part of life having non payers.
If I was running a yard now I would be very wary of loans and would have a contract that established exactly who the horse belonged to and I would have the contract with them jointly so I could hold them jointly liable for any non payment.

And i say again that i wish you were a lawyer and that he did not shoot the horse in recovery of the debt, so I am not certain that you are right about him having made a contract outside the law. We can go on repeating this discussion all day if you have time GS

Do we have a lawyer on here who can tell us?


There is a big livery yard near me which will not accept any loan horses on the yard.

 

[Goldenstar]

You can think what you like cptrayes it will do me no harm .
You really make me laugh, I disagree with you ,I think you are wrong you can keep posting all you like you think this bloke has broken no laws I can keep saying I don't think you are right .
however I do think it may depend on the resource and energy the owner of the horse has to go after him, however I may be doing the police a disservice there.

 

[cptrayes]

You can think what you like cptrayes it will do me no harm .
You really make me laugh, I disagree with you ,I think you are wrong you can keep posting all you like you think this bloke has broken no laws I can keep saying I don't think you are right .
however I do think it may depend on the resource and energy the owner of the horse has to go after him, however I may be doing the police a disservice there.

I have explicitly stated the laws which I think he has broken, and I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I do not think you are qualified to be as certain as you are about what you are saying.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have explicitly stated the laws which I think he has broken, and I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I do not think you are qualified to be as certain as you are about what you are saying.

Thanks very much for telling me what I should think about my opinions .

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks very much for telling me what I should think about my opinions .

You aren't stating them as opinions, you are stating them as fact. That's the problem.

 

[Goldenstar]

You aren't stating them as opinions, you are stating them as fact. That's the problem.[/

What's the problem ?
I am not involved in this in any way just a person on a forum stating my view like everybody else
It's not a problem if people disagree with you you know.

 

[Alec Swan]

Goldenstar, you are entirely correct, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and strangely, that will include those who Judge. 'The Law' itself as to what would be clearly black and white, is a matter of opinion, and very rarely a matter of fact. Our opinions are those points which are weighed when judgement is being sort.

What those people did to the owners of that horse was disgraceful. 'To the owners', you notice. There is no law to prevent them from shooting a horse. The shooting of the horse is a civil matter between the Owner or their Agent(the loaner), and the owner of the livery yard.

It should also be born in mind that though The Law doesn't exist which should prevent the man from doing what he did, there are most certainly Regulations in place to do with disposal, (not Law remember, but Regulations), and if he's transgressed these, then THERE may be grounds for the Authorities to act.

My argument certainly isn't in the defence of those who are responsible for the death of the animal, but rather that a realistic view be taken, and it is with regret that I say that I would be very surprised if those responsible face any prosecution. Short of possibly breaching the 'disposal' Regs, I don't believe that any Law has been broken. I grant you it's a bummer, and it would be a travesty of justice if those responsible are charged with nothing, but it's our tried and tested legal system I'm afraid to say.

Perhaps it's best explained by asking "Is it against the Law, for one man to kill another"? Possibly is the answer!

Alec.