Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner

[Clara Mo 3]

Err, where did I say I was saying no more? Clearly you are not reading things.

I don't have an interest what people are saying. Just reading through a few of the posts is enough to tell me that wild speculation is going on, as usual, without anyone knowing facts.

No, wasn't reading the author, now edited to correct that. ;-)

Edited once again to say that in my defence you did answer as if I had asked YOU a question...and I hadn't ! Aside from that I am just old and tired and sick of listening to people trying to defend the indefensible !

 

[diamonddogs]

Well then, if you know for a FACT he didn't try to load her, then you know he lied then. FACT.

So, if you know the truth, tell it true here and maybe you can ease the hearts and minds of those of us who empathise with what that poor animal went through in the last hour(s) of her life, and in particular, her poor owner, who's going through enough without having to read all this.

And if you can't do that, just sod off with your "I know something you don't know" because, frankly, I don't believe you, because if you DID know, I would hope that you'd have more sense than to be gobbing off on here.

 

[Clara Mo 3]

Well then, if you know for a FACT he didn't try to load her, then you know he lied then. FACT.

So, if you know the truth, tell it true here and maybe you can ease the hearts and minds of those of us who empathise with what that poor animal went through in the last hour(s) of her life, and in particular, her poor owner, who's going through enough without having to read all this.

And if you can't do that, just sod off with your "I know something you don't know" because, frankly, I don't believe you, because if you DID know, I would hope that you'd have more sense than to be gobbing off on here.

Precisely !

 

[Moomin1]

Well then, if you know for a FACT he didn't try to load her, then you know he lied then. FACT.

So, if you know the truth, tell it true here and maybe you can ease the hearts and minds of those of us who empathise with what that poor animal went through in the last hour(s) of her life, and in particular, her poor owner, who's going through enough without having to read all this.

And if you can't do that, just sod off with your "I know something you don't know" because, frankly, I don't believe you, because if you DID know, I would hope that you'd have more sense than to be gobbing off on here.

Why doesn't everyone just follow this advice? This entire thread is ridiculous and nothing more than pointlessly damaging to everyone concerned at this point in time.

WHEN facts come out (or IF), then it would be more appropriate for everyone to make judgement.

 

[saskiahorsey]

Having read through this whole thread and the media stuff all i can say is my heart goes out to kits owner ... And i dont care wether there was a fee owing etc under no circumstances should a yo feel hes god and kill someone elses animal .... As far as im concerned he should have gone down the legal route if he really was so upset about mony owed however i feel he has thought he will prove a point ... I cannot fathom how anyone could line his pockets agains wether it be liveries or facility users ! He would not be giving any form press releases had it have been one of my horses thats for sure ! This man has previous and a free pass this time will make him even more convinced hes above the law ... We have enough animal cruelty going on in this country this man needs to be made an example of .... Throw away the key i say !!

 

[thehorsephotographer]

The RSPCA horses have all been removed from this establishment today.

 

[thehorsephotographer]

The RSPCA horses have all been removed from this establishment today.

Sorry - didn't mean to double post.

There should be a statement from the police tomorrow and or a press release concerning the involvement of various people including the 53 year old person who was arrested and released without charge. It will be interesting to see if, as I suspect is the case, this person has been used almost as a scapegoat or unwittingly dragged into something over which he was not told the truth. I think, but don't know for certain, that this person has been instrumental in RSPCA horses and ponies so quickly.

 

[Froddy]

The RSPCA horses have all been removed from this establishment today.

Thank god for that.

My thoughts are with Kits owner in all this, I can only hope that anyone who has a horse on livery there manages to move them elsewhere asap

 

[hackneylass2]

I'm not speculating on what went on, all I can say is that Cooper Wilson states on his animal communicator/Reiki master etc etc website that he was a fellmonger. Hmmmmm? Would make me run a mile.

RIP Kit and condolences to her owner and loaner.

 

[Dry Rot]

If this case ever gets to court, it would not surprise me if it was thrown out for the reasons stated below. Is that what everyone wants? I am all for free speech and open discussion but some of the wild speculation on this thread is irresponsible and defies reason. It is well known that if something is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted as "the truth". Personally, I am reserving judgement until witnesses have been cross examined in court under oath.

http://www.contactlaw.co.uk/what-is-the-law-regarding-media-influence-in-criminal-trials.html

What is the law regarding media influence in criminal trials?

Media influence in criminal trials has been a much-debated issue. Many studies have been performed looking at whether press has influenced jurors and caused them to make a different decision to the one they would have made based only on the evidence presented at the trial.

Of course, media influence is not only harmful, and there can be benefits to significant press attention. For example, press coverage can mean that witnesses, who otherwise would not have known of the incident, can come forward and present their evidence.

Visit our criminal law pages for more legal information on this topic.

The right to a fair trial

Every person charged with a criminal offence has the right to a fair trial under Article 6 of the European Convention of Human Rights, as enacted into UK law by the Human Rights Act 1998.

In the case of media coverage and adverse publicity, if the jury are likely to be swayed by excessive media coverage and this affects the defendant’s right to a fair trial, then the court must do something to mitigate the unfairness to the defendant or dismiss the case altogether.

Negative impacts on trial judgements

There have been many cases in which a conviction has had to be quashed, or a trial stayed on the grounds of abuse of process, because of adverse pre-trial publicity.

In the case of R v Taylor and Taylor the Court of Appeal confirmed the principle created in R v McCann, that if media coverage created a substantial risk of prejudice to the defendants, the convictions should be regarded as unsafe and quashed.

The prejudice may be such that a re-trial is not possible because a fair trial cannot take place.

Prejudicing juries

If a court decides that the jury is prejudiced by media coverage there are a number of options. The court may decide to stay or quash proceedings and may or may not decide to order a re-trial. The court may decide that the prejudice caused can be remedied by the judge directing the jury on the issue.

This was seen recently when a judge warned a jury to ignore the Prime Minister’s widely reported prejudicial remarks about a case.
The judge may also decide that the risk of prejudice is slight due to time elapsed, or because a jury is not present and the trial may go ahead.

There has recently been a lot of discussion amongst the judiciary regarding the use of the social media site Twitter from the court room. The Lord Chief Justice ruled that journalists can Tweet from the court room as long as it doesn’t interfere with the administration of justice.

However, they must apply for permission from the trial judge first, and this is likely to be refused in ongoing criminal trials.

If you would like to obtain legal advice on a criminal trial, we can put you in touch with a local specialist criminal defence solicitor free of charge. Please call us on 0808 149 1841 or complete the web-form above.

Last Updated on 04/08/2014

 

[Gloi]

Being punished financially by everybody leaving the yard is a good start.

 

[Jinnie]

C & C transport have just issued a statement that all RSPCA horses have been removed from the site.

Not a fan of the RSPCA myself but well done this time for listening to public opinions.

 

[luckyoldme]

I don't comment on threads much, more of a reader n digester!
But all I can say is I hope this horrid incident only brings good things!
I own a very small livery, I only have two liveries but I am currently making more spaces, and even though I'm only small I have had two previous ladies who left my yard owing me money, one was nearly £200, the other £120! However I just wrote the debts of because I was happy to have them off my yard! I was sick to death of them not turning up, and asking me to just chuck their horses some hay! I think one horse was left in his stable for 6 days, because the owner was struggling with time, she thought here 30 mins would be better used mucking out and chatting than exercising her horse!
From reading loads of posts this is not uncommon with or without livery agreements!
In no way am I defending YO but I do not think he has managed to own a multimillion pound property by allowing liveries to owe him large amounts of money! I suspect that over the years he has become harsh to debtors and poor Kit paid the price!
So I hope that this case is an eye opener to EVERY livery in the country, and they realise how lucky they are not to be in Kit's owners shoes!
I also hope that this is an eye opener to horse owners who's horses are out on loan! I hope that every owner goes around to the livery yard that their horses are kept at and make themselves known to the YO's and letting them know that if the loaner is not doing the job properly then the owner is contacted!
I just hope that this situation will serve as a wake up call to others!

I think this is a really sensible answer. I too should imagine that another livery owing money was the straw that broke the camels back...its just that the livery yard owner has obviously gone way beyond acceptable behaviour.
Anyone owning a small business knows the frustration of bad payers, and like you ive had to write off debts...the one that springs to mind is £195 followed by the posts on fb of money being spent on luxuries ........it really gets your back up.
My horses livery is due every month on the last day of the month......im usually two or three weeks early...but on one occasion left it to the last minute, evan then I went up there specially just to square up.
Im glad that the business seems to have suffered from horses being moved by the rspca........and im all for voting with your purse, but in reality for livery owners non payers are a hugely difficult problem to deal with , so maybe along with the outcry about what this horrible person has done there should also be an outcry about people who think its ok not to pay.

 

[Clara Mo 3]

If this case ever gets to court, it would not surprise me if it was thrown out for the reasons stated below. Is that what everyone wants? I am all for free speech and open discussion but some of the wild speculation on this thread is irresponsible and defies reason. It is well known that if something is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted as "the truth". Personally, I am reserving judgement until witnesses have been cross examined in court under oath.

Whilst I agree to an extent...I do think o this occasion the public freedom of speech will probably have secured more positives than having any negative impact on any trial - that's if there is a trial given that a lot of folks on here seem to understand the law pretty well and believe there is no great legal case to answer, only a moral one. The police don't put a great deal of effort into horse crime, so I think the public outrage has possibly forced them to take it more seriously than otherwise may have happened. I also believe the public disgust has forced the RSPCA to remove their horses from the yard - which they possibly would't have done.

As I have also mentioned, this man has been doing various similar evil things for years and has never been forced to be accountable for his actions, this has caused so much public shock Nationwide that there has to be some consequence to his actions this time - even if it is simply that people move their horses or don't go near him in future.

 

[diamonddogs]

I had cause to read this article on a completely unconnected matter and so much of it struck home with reference to this case:

How to Identify a Psychopath

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist:

Look for glib and superficial charm. A psychopath will also put on what professionals refer to as a "mask" of sanity that is likeable and pleasant. For example, the psychopath may do good deeds to gain his or her victims trust.

Look for a grandiose self-perception. Psychopaths will often believe they are smarter or more powerful than they actually are.

Watch for a constant need for stimulation. Stillness, quiet and reflection are not things embraced by psychopaths. They need constant entertainment and activity.

Determine if there is pathological lying. A psychopath will tell all sorts of lies; little white lies as well as huge stories intended to mislead.

Evaluate the level of manipulation. All psychopaths are identified as cunning and able to get people to do things they might not normally do. They can use guilt, force and other methods to manipulate.

Look for any feelings of guilt. An absence of any guilt or remorse is a sign of psychopathy.

Consider the affect or emotional response a person has. Psychopaths demonstrate shallow emotional reactions to deaths, injuries, trauma or other events that would otherwise cause a deeper response.

Look for a lack of empathy. Psychopaths are callous and have no way of relating to non-psychopaths.

Take a look at the person's lifestyle. Psychopaths are often parasitic, meaning they live off other people.

Observe the person's behaviour. The Hare Checklist includes three behaviour indicators; poor behaviour control, sexual promiscuity and early behaviour problems.

Talk about goals. Psychopaths have unrealistic goals for the long term. Either there are no goals at all, or they are unattainable and based on the exaggerated sense of one's own accomplishments and abilities.

Look at whether the person is impulsive or irresponsible. Both those characteristics are evidence of psychopathy.

Consider whether the person can accept responsibility. A psychopath will never admit to being wrong or owning up to mistakes and errors in judgment.

Examine marital relationships. If there have been many short term marriages, the chances the person is a psychopath increase.

Look for a history of juvenile delinquency. Many psychopaths exhibit delinquent behaviours in their youth.

Check for criminal versatility. Psychopaths are able to get away with a lot, and while they might sometimes get caught, the ability to be flexible when committing crimes is an indicator.

Check out if a person makes constant use of "the poor fellow's imagery". Psychopaths are experts at manipulating our emotions and insecurities into causing us to view them as "poor injusticed fellows", thus lowering our sentimental guard and rendering us vulnerable for future exploitation. If this psychological resource is continually combined with unacceptable and evil actions, this equals to a powerful alert sign about this person's real nature.

Pay extreme attention to the person's treatment towards others. Psychopaths are generally prone to belittle, humiliate, mistreat, mock and even attack physically (or kill, in extreme cases) people who normally would bring no benefits to him/her in any way, such as subordinates, physically frail or lower-ranking people, children, elderly people and even animals - especially the latter ones. Remember Arthur Schopenhauer's famous words: "A person who harms or kills animals cannot be a good person at all". Another relevant saying is Mahatma Gandhi's famous speech, "You know somebody well for their treatment towards their animals".

Source

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Well Put Clara Mo3. The power of public opinion is a good thing in this case.

 

[Dry Rot]

Well Put Clara Mo3. The power of public opinion is a good thing in this case.

And, when it is not a good case, who decides?

"The measure of a country's civilisation are it's laws and how they are administered".

Yeah, let's drag 'em out and string 'em up!

 

[ester]

I think there are more internet discussion issues on this case than the hho forum!

 

[Goldenstar]

IMO the story hardly making a ripple in the world away from us horsey types ,there would be no problem finding jurors if it's dealt with in the crown court and it may be magistrates court anyway.
A case has to way way more high profile than this and be subject to deluge of mainstream publicity for there to be an issue .

 

[be positive]

IMO the story hardly making a ripple in the world away from us horsey types ,there would be no problem finding jurors if it's dealt with in the crown court and it may be magistrates court anyway.
A case has to way way more high profile than this and be subject to deluge of mainstream publicity for there to be an issue .

Absolutely true, in comparison to some really high profile cases this is hardly going to be noticed by anyone who is not involved with horses in some way, the small amount of publicity it has received will have no impact on the average person who may be on a jury, if it even gets that far.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

And, when it is not a good case, who decides?

"The measure of a country's civilisation are it's laws and how they are administered".

Yeah, let's drag 'em out and string 'em up!

Dry Rot, I am not suggesting what you imply, bit silly tbh. As regards the law it has already been stated on here that charges may be limited to criminal damage only ( does that require a Jury?) and that info is provided much further up the thread (and in a much less emotive way I might add) .

What you are witnessing on here is the power of opinion, and while the absolute facts may not be known about the case, some people feel they know enough to decide if they will use the GG again or boycott etc. (and I image the sight of a dead horse being delivered via a JCB onto the loaners lawn has been enough information for many - facts already established by the RSPCA inspector at the scene and the police)

If enough people are outraged by the facts already established as mentioned above (not the speculation, I might add) then in my view you see public media etc at its best.

 

[cptrayes]

I think this may never come to court. It seems true that he had a verbal contract that he would shoot any horse where livery fees were not paid. And that the horse was shot humanely. In that case, the dumping aside, no criminal offence has been committed.

In a civil case, he may owe the owner for the value of her horse, but actually I think the loaner will owe it, because she willingly entered into that contract and it was her lack of payment which resulted in the contract term being applied.

There is a possibility of prosecution by DEFRA for the way the horse's body was disposed of, but even if there are grounds it is doubtful that they would consider it in the public interest to prosecute a one off case like this.

So don't hold your breath folks. He's likely to walk away from this scot free, unless liveries desert him in droves and stay away for good, but people have short memories.

 

[Sebastian]

I had cause to read this article on a completely unconnected matter and so much of it struck home with reference to this case:



Source

And the most important part of diagnosing mental disorders is to not rely on websites.

 

[diamonddogs]

Of course. I go around diagnosing mental disorders as part of my daily routine all the time.

 

[Wagtail]

I had cause to read this article on a completely unconnected matter and so much of it struck home with reference to this case:



Source

That's why I said he was a psychopath a couple of times on this thread. Many people assume psychopaths are insane murderers. Not so. Most are 'normal' members of society.

 

[Wagtail]

I think this may never come to court. It seems true that he had a verbal contract that he would shoot any horse where livery fees were not paid. And that the horse was shot humanely. In that case, the dumping aside, no criminal offence has been committed.

In a civil case, he may owe the owner for the value of her horse, but actually I think the loaner will owe it, because she willingly entered into that contract and it was her lack of payment which resulted in the contract term being applied.

There is a possibility of prosecution by DEFRA for the way the horse's body was disposed of, but even if there are grounds it is doubtful that they would consider it in the public interest to prosecute a one off case like this.

So don't hold your breath folks. He's likely to walk away from this scot free, unless liveries desert him in droves and stay away for good, but people have short memories.

Cptrayes, do you have a link to the petition you started?

 

[Clara Mo 3]

I think this may never come to court. It seems true that he had a verbal contract that he would shoot any horse where livery fees were not paid. And that the horse was shot humanely. In that case, the dumping aside, no criminal offence has been committed.

In a civil case, he may owe the owner for the value of her horse, but actually I think the loaner will owe it, because she willingly entered into that contract and it was her lack of payment which resulted in the contract term being applied.

There is a possibility of prosecution by DEFRA for the way the horse's body was disposed of, but even if there are grounds it is doubtful that they would consider it in the public interest to prosecute a one off case like this.

So don't hold your breath folks. He's likely to walk away from this scot free, unless liveries desert him in droves and stay away for good, but people have short memories.

Sadly I think you may be right. Which will further his "career" of nastiness.

 

[fburton]

In that case, the dumping aside, no criminal offence has been committed.

As a matter of interest... If someone took a horse into the middle of a crowded shopping precinct (say) and proceeded to kill the horse using a captive bolt in front of the crowds, would that be a criminal offence?

 

[Red-1]

I don't know if this petition was started by anyone here, but it is a UK Govt one, and it is not exaggerated, and works towards horse welfare.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742

 

[cptrayes]

As a matter of interest... If someone took a horse into the middle of a crowded shopping precinct (say) and proceeded to kill the horse using a captive bolt in front of the crowds, would that be a criminal offence?

Mmmmmm. You could probably get him on 'behaviour likely to cause harassment alarm or distress', but it still would only be a fairly minor public order offence with not much of a penalty.