Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner

[diamonddogs]

Mmmmmm. You could probably get him on 'behaviour likely to cause harassment alarm or distress', but it still would only be a fairly minor public order offence with not much of a penalty.

And of course, we know her body was still on the lawn the following morning. How many parents taking their children to school had to walk past a dead mare, albeit one concealed by a bloodstained sheet? And just because the penalty would be negligible, is this a reason NOT to prosecute?

We certainly do....since you were accusing me of starting an unhappy debate....and you were the only one debating it LOL. ;-)

Nobody's having a go at you for raising this issue, it's just that we're on 20 pages now (with my settings, maybe a lot more for other people) and there's several lines of discussion going on, and it's getting a bit confusing to follow all the lines of discussion.

Where on earth did this learned discussion on psychopathy/sociopathy emerge? Apart from someone calling a bloke they have never met a psycopath?

That was me, I think, but I didn't call anyone a psychopath (maybe someone else did, but I'm guilty for posting the list), just dropped something into the mix.

I doubt you have met a real social psychopath...

I wouldn't know, since they don't all go around with machetes down their trousers and a Hannibal Lecter mask on. Most function on the same level as the next person and might never display any violent tendencies whatsoever.

I personally can't get away from, whatever the rights and wrongs of both sides of the arguments, that this person loaded a dead/dying horse in a JCB bucket and dumped it in the front garden of a suburban street. Seriously ? Who on earth does he think he is ? Where are we living ?

Agree 100%

Do you hear the people sing ? Walk the walk

A good idea, but not practical for most people, specially at a point in the year when everyone's horses are starting to take up a lot more of their time, and it's not always possible to take a day off to attend a demo.

And personally, I don't fancy my chances against someone with a cabinet full of guns who's not afraid to use them.

Which brings me back to something I've been banging on about all along - they can surely have him on firearms offences? It's all getting a bit confusing but I'm sure I read that he used a pistol on Kit, not a humane killer, so an offence must have been committed?

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Which brings me back to something I've been banging on about all along - they can surely have him on firearms offences? It's all getting a bit confusing but I'm sure I read that he used a pistol on Kit, not a humane killer, so an offence must have been committed?

Not so. The free bullet is the preferred method of destroying a horse by most of those who are well enough practised, and the captive bolt pistol carries a set of risks which would prevent most from taking that choice. Providing that the weapon used was registered to the user, and they had the authority to hold such a weapon, then no offence has been committed.

Alec.

ps. Love the Sig by the way!!

 

[diamonddogs]

Not so. The free bullet is the preferred method of destroying a horse by most of those who are well enough practised, and the captive bolt pistol carries a set of risks which would prevent most from taking that choice. Providing that the weapon used was registered to the user, and they had the authority to hold such a weapon, then no offence has been committed.

Alec.

******

ps. Love the Sig by the way!!

 

[Goldenstar]

I would only allow a free bullet to be used on my horses , I do think it's the 'best' way.

 

[Clara Mo 3]

And of course it wasn't the YO who shot Kit, it was a man licensed (as far as I am aware because I nearly had to call upon him myself) to dispatch horses who was called upon to do the evil deed. I don't believe anywhere has suggested that the YO is dangerous per se nor has it been suggested that he has a cabinet full of guns - illegally held or not !

 

[diamonddogs]

... nor has it been suggested that he has a cabinet full of guns - illegally held or not !

I'd be more surprised if he hadn't actually - most farming people I know have, and I bet there's one or two guns in their cabinets that aren't strictly kosher as well!

 

[Clara Mo 3]

I'd be more surprised if he hadn't actually - most farming people I know have, and I bet there's one or two guns in their cabinets that aren't strictly kosher as well!

That's as maybe, however it wasn't he who shot the horse and it hasn't been reported anywhere that he has a cabinet full of guns - just more speculation. I know plenty of farming people who don't have guns, so being a (ex) farmer doesn't necessarily equate to having guns.

 

[diamonddogs]

More assumption than speculation actually.

Ho hum...

 

[Clara Mo 3]

More assumption than speculation actually.

Ho hum...

Whatever...if it is legal to shoot a horse in an "emergency" it would have been quicker to have got a gun out of his cabinet half a mile away from the field to do the job rather than ring another man to drive a few miles and do it. Anyhow, its pretty irrelevant whether he does or does't but I wanted to put right the statement that alluded to him having shot the horse, he didn't physically do it, he or his son ordered it to be done.

 

[Dry Rot]

If it was my horse, I would be casting around for a solicitor to handle this one pro bono (that's for free). It is a major public interest case and they will sometimes do it for nothing for the public relations value.

There are also possible prosecutions under a raft of relatively minor rules and regulations. Did he have a waste carrier's licence (sorry!)? Did he comply with the strict regulations on the transport of animal by products? There's a maximum £5,000 fine under the waste carriers regulations for a start.

Is it possible to sue for "pain and suffering"? The owner/loaner has been deprived of the use of the horse and although it may not have a huge financial value in real terms, it will cost to replace. Courts can impose punitive damages.

I would have thought a smart lawyer with a sharp pen could make things very interesting for the YO.

 

[Orangehorse]

If it was my horse, I would be casting around for a solicitor to handle this one pro bono (that's for free). It is a major public interest case and they will sometimes do it for nothing for the public relations value.

There are also possible prosecutions under a raft of relatively minor rules and regulations. Did he have a waste carrier's licence (sorry!)? Did he comply with the strict regulations on the transport of animal by products? There's a maximum £5,000 fine under the waste carriers regulations for a start.

Is it possible to sue for "pain and suffering"? The owner/loaner has been deprived of the use of the horse and although it may not have a huge financial value in real terms, it will cost to replace. Courts can impose punitive damages.

I would have thought a smart lawyer with a sharp pen could make things very interesting for the YO.

I hope so. Surely the only person to allow a horse to be killed in a non emergency is the owner.
I think the best course of action would be the above rules and regulations - environment department at the local Council,
DEFRA.
What was he thinking of?

 

[cptrayes]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/71053


Please sign this one and spread it as wide as you can. Will someone also quote this post so that the people who have me on use ignore will see it, we need as many signatures as we can get, to get this officially presented to the government. THANKS

....

 

[NeilM]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/71053


Please sign this one and spread it as wide as you can. Will someone also quote this post so that the people who have me on use ignore will see it, we need as many signatures as we can get, to get this officially presented to the government. THANKS

....

DONE

 

[luckyoldme]

im sure i read that the yo was issuing a statement yesterday..did they do that?

 

[cobgoblin]

im sure i read that the yo was issuing a statement yesterday..did they do that?

I think the police were supposed to issue a statement yesterday but as far as I know it hasn't happened.

 

[brucea]

Done

Who would possibly have you on user ignore C!

 

[Clara Mo 3]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/71053


Please sign this one and spread it as wide as you can. Will someone also quote this post so that the people who have me on use ignore will see it, we need as many signatures as we can get, to get this officially presented to the government. THANKS

....

Signed...Can you get it on VANAH facebook page for more signatures ?

 

[LinzyD]

This poor horse has been catastrophically let down by humans. We are all shocked and outraged by the killing and dumping of the horse, and notwithstanding all the ramifications of that, I think the whole episode is a morality tale in the potential outcomes for race horses that leave training and for other horses that can no longer do their job and get moved on to face an uncertain future.

IMO, the owner let the horse down by loaning it to someone who seems not to have the means, the wherewithal and the capability to look after it. Watch the video interview and read the posts of the loaner and ask yourself if you would entrust your treasured horse to this person's care?

Then it seems that the loaner let the horse down by not attending to it sufficiently and not ensuring that the very small sum of £10 a week was properly paid. I'm not saying that it therefore means the outcome was justified, but simply that if the matter of £10 a week is a problem, whether because you can't afford it, or because you just didn't get round to it, then you are not meeting your responsibilities towards the horse.

Then the YO and his son fatally let the horse down by doing whatever it was that led to the horse being shot.

Perhaps after all the horse is better off dead than passed off to an unsuitable loaner by owners who don't want it and then left in an unpaid for field at the hands of people who are brutal and unhinged. There are worse things for a horse to be than dead. As horse lovers our sensibilities are outraged and offended by the idea, or the sight if we have looked at the photos, of the dead horse in the garden, but really there are far worse situations going on right now for living horses who are unwanted and uncared for.

 

[Red-1]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/71053


Please sign this one and spread it as wide as you can. Will someone also quote this post so that the people who have me on use ignore will see it, we need as many signatures as we can get, to get this officially presented to the government. THANKS

....

Done. Well put

 

[Alec Swan]

cpt, as fond of you as I am, and equally as fond of my animals, attaching a tenable value to emotion is never going to happen.

Will the itinerant and travelling person, having one of his highly prised and valued horses, dealt a deathly blow, be able to have the animals perceived value enhanced via his own claimed attachment?

OK, so it won't apply to those who are hardly deserving. Who's to decide who they are?

Your petition is one of lunacy, I'm sorry but it is, and you of all people will realise that Court time can't be taken up with such decisions.

It's madness.

Alec.

 

[Onward Bound]

This poor horse has been catastrophically let down by humans. We are all shocked and outraged by the killing and dumping of the horse, and notwithstanding all the ramifications of that, I think the whole episode is a morality tale in the potential outcomes for race horses that leave training and for other horses that can no longer do their job and get moved on to face an uncertain future.

IMO, the owner let the horse down by loaning it to someone who seems not to have the means, the wherewithal and the capability to look after it. Watch the video interview and read the posts of the loaner and ask yourself if you would entrust your treasured horse to this person's care?

Then it seems that the loaner let the horse down by not attending to it sufficiently and not ensuring that the very small sum of £10 a week was properly paid. I'm not saying that it therefore means the outcome was justified, but simply that if the matter of £10 a week is a problem, whether because you can't afford it, or because you just didn't get round to it, then you are not meeting your responsibilities towards the horse.

Then the YO and his son fatally let the horse down by doing whatever it was that led to the horse being shot.

Perhaps after all the horse is better off dead than passed off to an unsuitable loaner by owners who don't want it and then left in an unpaid for field at the hands of people who are brutal and unhinged. There are worse things for a horse to be than dead. As horse lovers our sensibilities are outraged and offended by the idea, or the sight if we have looked at the photos, of the dead horse in the garden, but really there are far worse situations going on right now for living horses who are unwanted and uncared for.

I totally agree linzyD the loaner didn't come across very well when TV interviewed her on the day of Kit's death, she showed very little emotion and I have seen pictures posted of her with the blood stained sheet. Not sure many of us owners would have been able to appear on TV or pose in such circumstances and if she had paid the £30 and stuck to the livery agreement the horse would still be alive.

 

[teamgossip]

Originally Posted by LinzyD
This poor horse has been catastrophically let down by humans. We are all shocked and outraged by the killing and dumping of the horse, and notwithstanding all the ramifications of that, I think the whole episode is a morality tale in the potential outcomes for race horses that leave training and for other horses that can no longer do their job and get moved on to face an uncertain future.

IMO, the owner let the horse down by loaning it to someone who seems not to have the means, the wherewithal and the capability to look after it. Watch the video interview and read the posts of the loaner and ask yourself if you would entrust your treasured horse to this person's care?

Then it seems that the loaner let the horse down by not attending to it sufficiently and not ensuring that the very small sum of £10 a week was properly paid. I'm not saying that it therefore means the outcome was justified, but simply that if the matter of £10 a week is a problem, whether because you can't afford it, or because you just didn't get round to it, then you are not meeting your responsibilities towards the horse.

Then the YO and his son fatally let the horse down by doing whatever it was that led to the horse being shot.

Perhaps after all the horse is better off dead than passed off to an unsuitable loaner by owners who don't want it and then left in an unpaid for field at the hands of people who are brutal and unhinged. There are worse things for a horse to be than dead. As horse lovers our sensibilities are outraged and offended by the idea, or the sight if we have looked at the photos, of the dead horse in the garden, but really there are far worse situations going on right now for living horses who are unwanted and uncared for.

Couldn't agree more with you!!!

 

[brucea]

cpt, as fond of you as I am, and equally as fond of my animals, attaching a tenable value to emotion is never going to happen.

Will the itinerant and travelling person, having one of his highly prised and valued horses, dealt a deathly blow, be able to have the animals perceived value enhanced via his own claimed attachment?

OK, so it won't apply to those who are hardly deserving. Who's to decide who they are?

Your petition is one of lunacy, I'm sorry but it is, and you of all people will realise that Court time can't be taken up with such decisions.

It's madness.

Alec.

I signed because I agree with the intent - however I also agree with you Alec that it should have better been worded to include the amount of investment in education and training that has been made in that animal. It may not increase its market worth but it increases it's worth to the owner.

However I don't have an "emotional investment" with my car door, I do with my horse, cats and children. The law fails to recognise this at the moment

 

[brucea]

This poor horse has been catastrophically let down by humans. We are all shocked and outraged by the killing and dumping of the horse, and notwithstanding all the ramifications of that, I think the whole episode is a morality tale in the potential outcomes for race horses that leave training and for other horses that can no longer do their job and get moved on to face an uncertain future.

IMO, the owner let the horse down by loaning it to someone who seems not to have the means, the wherewithal and the capability to look after it. Watch the video interview and read the posts of the loaner and ask yourself if you would entrust your treasured horse to this person's care?

Then it seems that the loaner let the horse down by not attending to it sufficiently and not ensuring that the very small sum of £10 a week was properly paid. I'm not saying that it therefore means the outcome was justified, but simply that if the matter of £10 a week is a problem, whether because you can't afford it, or because you just didn't get round to it, then you are not meeting your responsibilities towards the horse.

Then the YO and his son fatally let the horse down by doing whatever it was that led to the horse being shot.

Perhaps after all the horse is better off dead than passed off to an unsuitable loaner by owners who don't want it and then left in an unpaid for field at the hands of people who are brutal and unhinged. There are worse things for a horse to be than dead. As horse lovers our sensibilities are outraged and offended by the idea, or the sight if we have looked at the photos, of the dead horse in the garden, but really there are far worse situations going on right now for living horses who are unwanted and uncared for.

It's hard to find much to argue with in this post.

 

[merrymeasure]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/71053


Please sign this one and spread it as wide as you can. Will someone also quote this post so that the people who have me on use ignore will see it, we need as many signatures as we can get, to get this officially presented to the government. THANKS

....

Signed

 

[cptrayes]

I signed because I agree with the intent - however I also agree with you Alec that it should have better been worded to include the amount of investment in education and training that has been made in that animal. It may not increase its market worth but it increases it's worth to the owner.

However I don't have an "emotional investment" with my car door, I do with my horse, cats and children. The law fails to recognise this at the moment

You only have a certain number of words and you have to make a point. I'm beginning to wish I'd never bothered.

 

[cptrayes]

cpt, as fond of you as I am, and equally as fond of my animals, attaching a tenable value to emotion is never going to happen.

Will the itinerant and travelling person, having one of his highly prised and valued horses, dealt a deathly blow, be able to have the animals perceived value enhanced via his own claimed attachment?

OK, so it won't apply to those who are hardly deserving. Who's to decide who they are?

Your petition is one of lunacy, I'm sorry but it is, and you of all people will realise that Court time can't be taken up with such decisions.

It's madness.

Alec.

As if courts don't make value judgements all the time about how badly people have been affected by crimes committed against them Alec. This is no different. It's just asking for criminal damage of a cat worth ten quid to be given a higher penalty than smashing a ten quid vase. Those kind of judgements are made in courts up and down the country every day.

 

[Dry Rot]

As if courts don't make value judgements all the time about how badly people have been affected by crimes committed against them Alec. This is no different. It's just asking for criminal damage of a cat worth ten quid to be given a higher penalty than smashing a ten quid vase. Those kind of judgements are made in courts up and down the country every day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_suffering

So, mental anguish? I agree, btw!

 

[Starbuck]

signed and thanks for setting it up cpt.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Done and shared on Facebook.