Wheels
Well-Known Member
Thanks mule, we are on a similar trajectory I think
Feet, transitioning, hoofboots help please
- Thread starter Wheels
- Start date
PurBee
Well-Known Member
You say he’s on very very dry haylage, more like wrapped hay.
I find this concerning, as haylage and hay are not the same feed. One is fermented stalky grasses, the other dried grasses. There’s no in between forage that would be safe to feed.
Hay can only be safely wrapped airtight if below 14% moisture.
Many hay producers, intend to make hay, get caught by the weather, hay gets rained on so they then decide it’s going to be baled and wrapped to be sold as haylage. Proper haylage producers won’t ever do this, as they know the chemistry of correctly fermenting the forage is an important element in making SAFE haylage.
If haylage is wrapped below 40% moisture there isn’t enough moisture to ferment the forage properly to make it safe to feed, leading to undetectable by sight bacterial growth no-one wants to be feeding, which, incidentally can easily cause laminitis bouts.
So do a double check of the wrapped forage you have. It should smell vaguely sweet, be golden colored, and ‘waxy’ feeling in texture. If it’s vinegary it’s over fermented, I wouldn’t personally feed that. If it looks like hay but doesn’t smell like nice hay, and smells musty due to being wrapped, it hasn’t fermented and not a safe clean feed.
When I say safe, I mean that the bacteria that are present on all grasslands haven’t been given optimal conditions to grow by the way the hay/haylage has been made. These bacteria are killed during proper fermentation, and dehydrated/dead by making dry hay, to safe, acceptable levels.
Bad quality forage can cause laminitis bouts. I’ve learnt this over and over.....never realizing just how sensitive horses are to ‘badly made’ forage which can ‘look’ fine to feed. Give it a huge deep smell...allow your own senses and body to relay to you if It’s any good. Initially with forage that visually looks fine and a small whiff to smell it as not being bad has given me stomach bloating, headaches and sneezes, mucous, blocked nose within an hour of doing this ‘deep smell test’. I literally plant my nose deep into a big handful of the forage and breathe in deeply....if I remain well within an hour without feeling ill, I feed it.
Now I’m sensitized to ‘bad forage’ I can tell by initial whiff if it’s good or bad. I can’t rely on horses to tell me, they eat anything when hungry.
If you have respiratory issues don’t do the deep smell test!
The rings on your horses feet suggest dietary assault episodes, could be spring grass, musty hay, grain overload, or poisoning from eating something weed/tree he shouldn’t have.
He has a nice round foot shape despite walls being long, needing to grow back strong. So you have a good foundational shape to grow a healthy wall onto. Nice wide big frog too! Not a terrible foot at all...a good trimmer should be able to bring that round to sound easily.
eBay has lots of 2nd hand boots for sale at great prices.
I find this concerning, as haylage and hay are not the same feed. One is fermented stalky grasses, the other dried grasses. There’s no in between forage that would be safe to feed.
Hay can only be safely wrapped airtight if below 14% moisture.
Many hay producers, intend to make hay, get caught by the weather, hay gets rained on so they then decide it’s going to be baled and wrapped to be sold as haylage. Proper haylage producers won’t ever do this, as they know the chemistry of correctly fermenting the forage is an important element in making SAFE haylage.
If haylage is wrapped below 40% moisture there isn’t enough moisture to ferment the forage properly to make it safe to feed, leading to undetectable by sight bacterial growth no-one wants to be feeding, which, incidentally can easily cause laminitis bouts.
So do a double check of the wrapped forage you have. It should smell vaguely sweet, be golden colored, and ‘waxy’ feeling in texture. If it’s vinegary it’s over fermented, I wouldn’t personally feed that. If it looks like hay but doesn’t smell like nice hay, and smells musty due to being wrapped, it hasn’t fermented and not a safe clean feed.
When I say safe, I mean that the bacteria that are present on all grasslands haven’t been given optimal conditions to grow by the way the hay/haylage has been made. These bacteria are killed during proper fermentation, and dehydrated/dead by making dry hay, to safe, acceptable levels.
Bad quality forage can cause laminitis bouts. I’ve learnt this over and over.....never realizing just how sensitive horses are to ‘badly made’ forage which can ‘look’ fine to feed. Give it a huge deep smell...allow your own senses and body to relay to you if It’s any good. Initially with forage that visually looks fine and a small whiff to smell it as not being bad has given me stomach bloating, headaches and sneezes, mucous, blocked nose within an hour of doing this ‘deep smell test’. I literally plant my nose deep into a big handful of the forage and breathe in deeply....if I remain well within an hour without feeling ill, I feed it.
Now I’m sensitized to ‘bad forage’ I can tell by initial whiff if it’s good or bad. I can’t rely on horses to tell me, they eat anything when hungry.
If you have respiratory issues don’t do the deep smell test!
The rings on your horses feet suggest dietary assault episodes, could be spring grass, musty hay, grain overload, or poisoning from eating something weed/tree he shouldn’t have.
He has a nice round foot shape despite walls being long, needing to grow back strong. So you have a good foundational shape to grow a healthy wall onto. Nice wide big frog too! Not a terrible foot at all...a good trimmer should be able to bring that round to sound easily.
eBay has lots of 2nd hand boots for sale at great prices.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
^^ Claire Mcleod (sp?) nutritionist did a whole post on her fb page about haylage being drier this year on her fb page.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
I’m not familiar with Claire, are you able to link that article/post she wrote? Can you remember the reason she gave for haylage being drier this year?
Seems odd to say 2019 haylage crops are drier, when it was a wet U.K. season, especially compared with 2018 very dry, hot forage season.
Seems odd to say 2019 haylage crops are drier, when it was a wet U.K. season, especially compared with 2018 very dry, hot forage season.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
https://www.facebook.com/ClareMacLe...aXY8SoL2qYKrdsQvBVioiLdL5P-N_BEmM3XilT2uEWs5X
post on 12th December
post on 12th December
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Found her post, she was warning people about wrapped hay being sold as haylage but being very dry and not fermenting so be careful as this wrapped stuff still contains mould spores and could be higher in sugar than haylage:
‘Clare MacLeod MSc RNutr Independent Equine NutritionistLike Page
December 12 at 10:53 PM ·
I'm seeing more and more haylage that is more akin to wrapped hay i.e. dry matter of over 75%, not much, if any fermentation, so not as dust and mould-spore free as typical haylage and potentially higher in sugar. Just be aware and if in doubt, have your forage analysed and steam or soak for horses with respiratory challenges. Consider a consistent, packaged fermented forage such as Horsehage (other bagged branded haylage-type products are available!), if you need a consistent, very low sugar (around 5%) forage that is free of dust. Horsehage was the original bagged (rather than wrapped) fermented forage and it's still a great, reliable product.”
‘Clare MacLeod MSc RNutr Independent Equine NutritionistLike Page
December 12 at 10:53 PM ·
I'm seeing more and more haylage that is more akin to wrapped hay i.e. dry matter of over 75%, not much, if any fermentation, so not as dust and mould-spore free as typical haylage and potentially higher in sugar. Just be aware and if in doubt, have your forage analysed and steam or soak for horses with respiratory challenges. Consider a consistent, packaged fermented forage such as Horsehage (other bagged branded haylage-type products are available!), if you need a consistent, very low sugar (around 5%) forage that is free of dust. Horsehage was the original bagged (rather than wrapped) fermented forage and it's still a great, reliable product.”
ester
Not slacking multitasking
yup I didn't want to C+P if I couldnt' share or screen shot easily
PurBee
Well-Known Member
I tried to link her Facebook page but it went wrong! She’s easily googleable so I pasted her Facebook name to aid this.
You could be fine with the forage you’re feeding, I’m just warning that there’s different grades of quality out there and much of what is sold as haylage, isn’t, so we have to be careful about assuming it’s low sugar and mould-free, which are the reasons why a lot of folk prefer to feed haylage, especially for the laminitics and our fatties!
With your horses feet, does he shed his soles? They look very dense and hard, I have one horse who has similar and the other who wears his down. I came across ‘sole retention syndrome’ and wondered if this caused her sole to remain the same no matter the footing she was on. She was flat footed when at her worst, but with keeping the toe shorter, which widened her heels, trimming tip of frog correctly if stretched, it’s resolved concavity naturally without trimming sole.
On your horse the frog height looks like it’s higher at the tip than the walls from the pic, which could cause soreness/footiness. Because it’s just a pic I can’t really tell without seeing the foot in person to assess it, it may just be the angle of the pic. My mare had this too and finding the true apex aswell as trimming it by a qualified trimmer, you could find the sole concavity return coupled with keeping the toe back.
Pete Ramey has a great article on his site about frog height. Obviously with your horse previously in shoes the frog wouldnt be impacting the ground so wouldn’t show soreness.
You could be fine with the forage you’re feeding, I’m just warning that there’s different grades of quality out there and much of what is sold as haylage, isn’t, so we have to be careful about assuming it’s low sugar and mould-free, which are the reasons why a lot of folk prefer to feed haylage, especially for the laminitics and our fatties!
With your horses feet, does he shed his soles? They look very dense and hard, I have one horse who has similar and the other who wears his down. I came across ‘sole retention syndrome’ and wondered if this caused her sole to remain the same no matter the footing she was on. She was flat footed when at her worst, but with keeping the toe shorter, which widened her heels, trimming tip of frog correctly if stretched, it’s resolved concavity naturally without trimming sole.
On your horse the frog height looks like it’s higher at the tip than the walls from the pic, which could cause soreness/footiness. Because it’s just a pic I can’t really tell without seeing the foot in person to assess it, it may just be the angle of the pic. My mare had this too and finding the true apex aswell as trimming it by a qualified trimmer, you could find the sole concavity return coupled with keeping the toe back.
Pete Ramey has a great article on his site about frog height. Obviously with your horse previously in shoes the frog wouldnt be impacting the ground so wouldn’t show soreness.
Wheels
Well-Known Member
Very interesting updates, thanks PurBee
Which photo in particular are you referring to? Theres quite a few on this thread now.
Which photo in particular are you referring to? Theres quite a few on this thread now.
Mule
Well-Known Member
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Post #67 wheels. It’s hard to tell without a picture of looking across the hoof.
If you put a non-flexible ruler/metal straight edge across the tip/last third of the frog and find the ruler not resting on the wall, the frog is higher than the wall. In some this can cause soreness.
It did for my mare on her fronts. When this was resolved her footiness that time was instantly resolved after trimming down the height of just the tip of her frog, with walls and everything else being left. I couldn’t believe it, so researched frog side, depth, height more. Looked at internal structural pictures too. Could then see how in a barefoot horse, a tall frog taking too much of the load and being compressed more than it should be, could cause the horse to feel sore.
It’s can be a challenge to grow a foot to balance the load between frog, sole and walls like it’s designed to load. It seems that when any part is having to take more load than it should ,the horse is sore.
I don’t know if other hoof folks agree with this, but I once read by an equine podiatrist that ‘where pressure on the hoof is, that part grows’. It’s the hoof building itself. I think this can happen unevenly so uneven loading follows, then soreness.
This applies to the frog it seems, though I’m not a fan of trimming frogs and they do better when allowed to grow and toughen, but watching the height of the frog alongside wall height can help when they’re barefoot.
Pushing on the frog firmly at the tip area is a good test to see if it’s sore, the horse should want to pull away when you press very firmly any sore area on their hoof. It’s help guide me and narrow down the issue so many times.
Heel soreness reactions is mostly due to heel sulcus fungus. Zinc oxide mixed with copper sulphate and diluted into 5 liters of water is the most effective daily hoof spray I’ve used, and dirt cheap!
If you put a non-flexible ruler/metal straight edge across the tip/last third of the frog and find the ruler not resting on the wall, the frog is higher than the wall. In some this can cause soreness.
It did for my mare on her fronts. When this was resolved her footiness that time was instantly resolved after trimming down the height of just the tip of her frog, with walls and everything else being left. I couldn’t believe it, so researched frog side, depth, height more. Looked at internal structural pictures too. Could then see how in a barefoot horse, a tall frog taking too much of the load and being compressed more than it should be, could cause the horse to feel sore.
It’s can be a challenge to grow a foot to balance the load between frog, sole and walls like it’s designed to load. It seems that when any part is having to take more load than it should ,the horse is sore.
I don’t know if other hoof folks agree with this, but I once read by an equine podiatrist that ‘where pressure on the hoof is, that part grows’. It’s the hoof building itself. I think this can happen unevenly so uneven loading follows, then soreness.
This applies to the frog it seems, though I’m not a fan of trimming frogs and they do better when allowed to grow and toughen, but watching the height of the frog alongside wall height can help when they’re barefoot.
Pushing on the frog firmly at the tip area is a good test to see if it’s sore, the horse should want to pull away when you press very firmly any sore area on their hoof. It’s help guide me and narrow down the issue so many times.
Heel soreness reactions is mostly due to heel sulcus fungus. Zinc oxide mixed with copper sulphate and diluted into 5 liters of water is the most effective daily hoof spray I’ve used, and dirt cheap!
Wheels
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I will test that with a straight edge tomorrow
Wheels
Well-Known Member
So I did your straight edge test, certainly at the moment the frog is not protruding beyond the walls - it may have been in the photo you referred to but not at the minute.
I've had a mixed fit kit out from hoof boutique for the last week or so - they have been very helpful and looked at lots of pics for me and gave me a lot of good advice. The best fit is the Renegade Vipers so I've now ordered a pair - hopefully they'll be here for the weekend
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I'm going to have to test this with mine , I think it may be his problem. I've been having a strange problem with mine in that for the first mile or so on a ride he wants to get off the road onto the verge. After a mile or so he is fine and stays fine for the rest of the ride and he isn't sensitive to stones at all, even when we first set off - it's smooth tarmac he wants to get off. I've a feeling the point of frog may be protruding a bit far and then wearing down as we ride. I'm going to check this out tomorrow.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Great news wheels, i think horses look very dapper with hoof boots on...like theyre up for a game of basketball
Its worth testing Gloi. Give a firm push with your thumbs onto that last third of the frog, see if there’s any reaction.
When ive studied *the* feral barefoot hoof thats circulated the barefoot community aswell as other barefoot wild horse pics the one thing i noticed that is common with all those feet is a very tough, yet shallow frog. In some the tip is buried deep into the concavity of the very thick, hard sole. Those frogs are not taking any loading on flat ground. They dont look like cushioned protruding pads like we see on domestic horses. When i see those wild feet , the heels and bars are taller than the heel of the frog, and look rock hard.
I know the climate where the pics of these feet generally come from very dry, hot climates and we all know how the elements a horse is subjected to completely alters a its foot, but it has me wondering if we have the wrong idea about the frog being an ‘equal partner’ in the loading of the foot, alongside wall and sole.
When my geldings back feet frogs grew huge, they took most the loading leading to thin walls growing. When the frogs were trimmed there were pink ‘stone bruises’ as theyre called, that could only be seen after trimming the frogs. He was far more comfortable when it was reduced, and his walls/sole could load more.
Sometimes i wonder if large frogs can be a causation to long toe/low heel syndrome, as the frogs take too much of the loading, maybe due to wall issues/weakness/trimmed too short, so they get more pressure on them, causing them to grow more to withstand this pressure, effectively resulting in a leverage within the foot of inner hoof frog contact onto p3 becoming either tipped forwards or ‘backwards depending on p3’s location within the foot before this growth episode took place. Its a curious theory i have that im yet to truly know if its possible as im havent seen thousands of hooves to consider this pathology as causative of hoof issues.
With my mares front feet she would be comfy if she actually grew a long wall...everytime being trimmed and rolled she would be footy, no flat soles being sore...but her frog tip protruded, so it was trimmed and she was confortable. Her frogs were stretched then, not wide at heel, despite toe being kept back, so i think the frog tip height being excess aswell as that frog material being ‘bound up’ stretched forward by sole material, stopped it wearing off naturally so she could resume proper frog growth. Only when it was trimmed down and back did her frog shed, soles became more concave, everything shifted. Her feet were really bad when i got her. Very long thin stretched frogs and long toes despite being barefoot her whole life. She was sporting a lamellar wedge, the whole caboodle.
Low sugar forage, no grain, copper and zinc to balance out the ridiculous iron levels in forage, and shes doing better weight, coat black instead of coppery black.
Im still very much of the ‘leave frogs alone’ camp so they can develop callous, but now im more attentive to size of it in comparison to the walls and sole, and assess closer how much loading its taking, no longer believing the bigger it is, the better it is for the comfort of the horse loading it.
I wish there were more articles online about frog function, ideal size, height etc, i could only find 1 or 2 who even said what height it should be, and both agreed it shouldnt protrude the wall height, while concurring should be level with heels at the widest part.
Its worth testing Gloi. Give a firm push with your thumbs onto that last third of the frog, see if there’s any reaction.
When ive studied *the* feral barefoot hoof thats circulated the barefoot community aswell as other barefoot wild horse pics the one thing i noticed that is common with all those feet is a very tough, yet shallow frog. In some the tip is buried deep into the concavity of the very thick, hard sole. Those frogs are not taking any loading on flat ground. They dont look like cushioned protruding pads like we see on domestic horses. When i see those wild feet , the heels and bars are taller than the heel of the frog, and look rock hard.
I know the climate where the pics of these feet generally come from very dry, hot climates and we all know how the elements a horse is subjected to completely alters a its foot, but it has me wondering if we have the wrong idea about the frog being an ‘equal partner’ in the loading of the foot, alongside wall and sole.
When my geldings back feet frogs grew huge, they took most the loading leading to thin walls growing. When the frogs were trimmed there were pink ‘stone bruises’ as theyre called, that could only be seen after trimming the frogs. He was far more comfortable when it was reduced, and his walls/sole could load more.
Sometimes i wonder if large frogs can be a causation to long toe/low heel syndrome, as the frogs take too much of the loading, maybe due to wall issues/weakness/trimmed too short, so they get more pressure on them, causing them to grow more to withstand this pressure, effectively resulting in a leverage within the foot of inner hoof frog contact onto p3 becoming either tipped forwards or ‘backwards depending on p3’s location within the foot before this growth episode took place. Its a curious theory i have that im yet to truly know if its possible as im havent seen thousands of hooves to consider this pathology as causative of hoof issues.
With my mares front feet she would be comfy if she actually grew a long wall...everytime being trimmed and rolled she would be footy, no flat soles being sore...but her frog tip protruded, so it was trimmed and she was confortable. Her frogs were stretched then, not wide at heel, despite toe being kept back, so i think the frog tip height being excess aswell as that frog material being ‘bound up’ stretched forward by sole material, stopped it wearing off naturally so she could resume proper frog growth. Only when it was trimmed down and back did her frog shed, soles became more concave, everything shifted. Her feet were really bad when i got her. Very long thin stretched frogs and long toes despite being barefoot her whole life. She was sporting a lamellar wedge, the whole caboodle.
Low sugar forage, no grain, copper and zinc to balance out the ridiculous iron levels in forage, and shes doing better weight, coat black instead of coppery black.
Im still very much of the ‘leave frogs alone’ camp so they can develop callous, but now im more attentive to size of it in comparison to the walls and sole, and assess closer how much loading its taking, no longer believing the bigger it is, the better it is for the comfort of the horse loading it.
I wish there were more articles online about frog function, ideal size, height etc, i could only find 1 or 2 who even said what height it should be, and both agreed it shouldnt protrude the wall height, while concurring should be level with heels at the widest part.
Last edited:
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I'm dying to go now and test him out. I was only looking this morning and thinking how nice his frogs were looking, they are in wear through their full length and the central sulcus is open and clean, but are quite high at the point. I'll test them against the wall tomorrow and if they are higher than the wall there will see how he is if I take the tip down a few mm. It does make sense because occasionally he is wanting to go on the verge in his boots and it would make sense as the frog would be pressing on the boot sole and in that case not being worn down during the ride. He never does any unlevel steps, just looks to get off the smooth tarmac, sometimes onto gravel which I thought odd.
Mule
Well-Known Member
That's fantastic.So I did your straight edge test, certainly at the moment the frog is not protruding beyond the walls - it may have been in the photo you referred to but not at the minute.
I've had a mixed fit kit out from hoof boutique for the last week or so - they have been very helpful and looked at lots of pics for me and gave me a lot of good advice. The best fit is the Renegade Vipers so I've now ordered a pair - hopefully they'll be here for the weekend
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Maybe he prefers the gravel in boots compared to tarmac because gravel shifts slightly at he loads on it, essentially cushioning each stride a bit lessening the concussion of the boot on his frog - thats if the frog is sensitive and too proud. How thick are his hoof walls?
The other thing i just thought of is that maybe due to the gravel being less concussive he could have a slight fetlock/leg sprain and avoiding tarmac’s unforgiving hardness? Does he have a muddy paddock with others he’s recently been silly in this winter and slipped in the mud or something? I never knew how clumsy horses were until owning them and witnessing for myself their ridiculous antics in the muddiest spots of a field!
Is it at walk he wants to use gravel and softer terrain or just at faster than walk paces?
Once you give his frog a good prod itll help reveal cause.
Check for heat at his fetlocks, cannon tendons and knees while he’s at rest for a slight sprain.
Mine can have a perfect walking gait, with no sign of lameness of a sprain, but when i do their feet i incidentally notice more heat in one fetlock than another. Some minor sprains dont show up at a walk but do at trotting/canter.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
It's mainly at walk that he wants to get off the tarmac when we first set off and he is warming up, once he gets a shift on he no longer thinks about it , he just goes forward and no sign of any problems. He gets a bit more chance to wander off line at a walk. I normally ride him without boots, I only use them if we are going out for more than a couple of hours.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
It might be the boots Gloi...depending on the material, perhaps when theyre first put on theyre stiff and cold, flexing less to his foot, and once theyve heated up after going a bit, they flex and are more comfortable?
Some boots are a tough, thick leathery material, while others are a more flexible manmade textile. If the sole is thick and doesnt flex much to the hoof inside, then gel pads could be tried if not currently used. Although i doubt many are manufactured so the sole of the boot doesnt flex and feel comfortable, as thats the main point of using boots.
Also recheck the fit of the boots, due to feet easily changing shape, wall thickness etc....draw round his feet onto paper, cut it out and insert into boot....have a feel round the edge of the paper inside to see if it sits flat all the way around or bends up the boot in places, then adjustments to hoof wall can be made based on this, if there’s just a few mm, or a size up or down if the paper stencil slides around or is 10mm too big. If the stencil is abit smaller then gel/pad inserts could be used to tighten the fit if a bit loose.
Some boots are a tough, thick leathery material, while others are a more flexible manmade textile. If the sole is thick and doesnt flex much to the hoof inside, then gel pads could be tried if not currently used. Although i doubt many are manufactured so the sole of the boot doesnt flex and feel comfortable, as thats the main point of using boots.
Also recheck the fit of the boots, due to feet easily changing shape, wall thickness etc....draw round his feet onto paper, cut it out and insert into boot....have a feel round the edge of the paper inside to see if it sits flat all the way around or bends up the boot in places, then adjustments to hoof wall can be made based on this, if there’s just a few mm, or a size up or down if the paper stencil slides around or is 10mm too big. If the stencil is abit smaller then gel/pad inserts could be used to tighten the fit if a bit loose.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I got to look at his frogs this morning. There is nothing above the level of the wall and nothing he reacts to if I press it, (though I can't press it as hard as he can when he is standing on it of course) The part of the frog where the two halves meet is the highest and at wall level so I;ve shaved it down a couple of mm to the same level as the rest of the frog and I will check it again before we go on the roads, I suspect that is the problem. He had a good ride out barefoot the day before yesterday and will have worn off any excess then but couldn't go out yesterday or today due to ice so today he just got a good run free in the school and then a lunge and he didn't show any problems except having too much energy for his own good. Roll on spring.
He has Scoots the times he wears them and the front ones fit really well , the back ones on the occasional time I use them are a touch loose but not too bad, but I don't suspect the problem is in the back feet. I'm hoping it is just that a bit of his frog is a little higher than the rest until it wears off on a ride, I think it could be the reason..
He has Scoots the times he wears them and the front ones fit really well , the back ones on the occasional time I use them are a touch loose but not too bad, but I don't suspect the problem is in the back feet. I'm hoping it is just that a bit of his frog is a little higher than the rest until it wears off on a ride, I think it could be the reason..
Last edited:
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Ditto, roll on spring, its blowing a gale where i am and raining in all directions!
Itll be interesting to see how he does now youve shaved the heel a bit. They tend to take short, quick steps with heel pain, than long extended confident steps...mostly with frog thrush issues, but equally if frog is too big and heel walls/bars dont load fully.
Itll be interesting to see how he does now youve shaved the heel a bit. They tend to take short, quick steps with heel pain, than long extended confident steps...mostly with frog thrush issues, but equally if frog is too big and heel walls/bars dont load fully.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Meant to add that the firm 2 thumb pressing on the frog will elicit a reaction if sore, despite it not being equivalent to their weight loaded. My mare reacted with just one thumb pressing, a very stark reaction of wanting to pull her hoof away from me. So its great your horses didnt flinch
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
It wasn't at the heel , the highest bit was about half an inch back from the tip of the frog. I do think the frog could have been loading unevenly at the start of the ride, interested to see the result next time it's fit to get out. I've had enough of this weather I like to get out hacking every day but not in this
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Check the height of the bars as well. General recommendation is not to trim bars, but some horses are much better with them taken back close to the sole.
.
.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Fortunately the bars always seem to stay short.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
It wasn't at the heel , the highest bit was about half an inch back from the tip of the frog. I do think the frog could have been loading unevenly at the start of the ride, interested to see the result next time it's fit to get out. I've had enough of this weather I like to get out hacking every day but not in this
Sorry gloi, my visual of the v you described somehow computed as heel. I know the spot you mean, that can develop a bit bulgey there in some horse frogs. It willl be interesting to see if the removal of that alters his tarmac avoidance next time you make it out.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Hooves can grow anomalous bulges of walls, sole and frog, and initially if taken off/down to visual balance they remain sound and good then i dont overthink the why of the bulge. Its only when bulges re-grow after removal that i stop and think deeper the why. The hoof is growing extra material for a reason. Why is that? What part of the hoof is weak to cause this anomaly? It could just be a trim slightly off balance. It might be weak walls. Many reasons.
With recurring issues, if the way weve been approaching it doesnt yield results, then we have to look more into other reasons, and change our understanding of the ‘why’, then try a new approach.
Like my mare, thinking it was all long toe, forever bringing it back...heels wouldnt widen. Whats going on?! Only when the cells of stretched frog tip and sole bound together were ‘released’ by trimming, did her sole concave more, toe came back, her walk far more lengthened, confident stride.
Mantras may be good for meditation but not when it comes to the horses foot - “never trim the frog”....that held me and the horse back for so long.
Its all great learning in the end...there’s no text book ‘standard’ when it comes to individual horses, with their individual feet, all in varying climates, on various diets, doing a variety of work.
With recurring issues, if the way weve been approaching it doesnt yield results, then we have to look more into other reasons, and change our understanding of the ‘why’, then try a new approach.
Like my mare, thinking it was all long toe, forever bringing it back...heels wouldnt widen. Whats going on?! Only when the cells of stretched frog tip and sole bound together were ‘released’ by trimming, did her sole concave more, toe came back, her walk far more lengthened, confident stride.
Mantras may be good for meditation but not when it comes to the horses foot - “never trim the frog”....that held me and the horse back for so long.
Its all great learning in the end...there’s no text book ‘standard’ when it comes to individual horses, with their individual feet, all in varying climates, on various diets, doing a variety of work.
Wheels
Well-Known Member
That's interesting about trimming the frogs, you do hear a lot that frogs should be left but as with anything there are always exceptions to the rule
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Well if all problems were so easy to fix
I looked at his feet again before I rode this morning, decided that part of the frog was still a bit high towards the rest and took another small amount off. Went out on the roads and no verge pulling at all!
I think that that part of the frog has been taking more weight than it should for a while and become harder and more compressed than the rest of the frog and so a bit uncomfortable when we first set off until the tarmac shaved it down. Hopefully if I keep my eye on it and keep it the same height as the rest of the frog, the rest of the frog will become as tough as that part and spread the pressure. Anyway it seems to have solved the mystery and we are now all systems go.
I looked at his feet again before I rode this morning, decided that part of the frog was still a bit high towards the rest and took another small amount off. Went out on the roads and no verge pulling at all!
I think that that part of the frog has been taking more weight than it should for a while and become harder and more compressed than the rest of the frog and so a bit uncomfortable when we first set off until the tarmac shaved it down. Hopefully if I keep my eye on it and keep it the same height as the rest of the frog, the rest of the frog will become as tough as that part and spread the pressure. Anyway it seems to have solved the mystery and we are now all systems go.