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Feet, transitioning, hoofboots help please

PurBee

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Thats great news Gloi :)
It must feel to the horse like a soft stone pushing in.
Your theory is sound that if its even all the way along it’ll evenly callous and toughen up.
Your case has highlighted that the plane of the frog does need to be even, and the smallest little bulging will begin to toughen more than the rest.
I try to visualise within the foot, the frog supports the majority of P3 inside the curve of P3, the frog within is much larger than the frog we see on the outside. The horse potentially can feel uneven frog from outside putting pressure on P3 within unevenly.
 

Gloi

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Thats great news Gloi :)
It must feel to the horse like a soft stone pushing in.
Your theory is sound that if its even all the way along it’ll evenly callous and toughen up.
Your case has highlighted that the plane of the frog does need to be even, and the smallest little bulging will begin to toughen more than the rest.
I try to visualise within the foot, the frog supports the majority of P3 inside the curve of P3, the frog within is much larger than the frog we see on the outside. The horse potentially can feel uneven frog from outside putting pressure on P3 within unevenly.
Yes, I've always left the frog alone, thinking it would grow what it needed, and only really bothered about making sure there was no thrushy bits, but now he's shown me I need to make sure it's kept level so he doesn't think he is standing on a stone. I'm really glad it was something fixable.
 

Gloi

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Quite amazed how quickly the rest of the frog is developing while I keep lowering that calloused lump which I think seems to swell a bit every day so must have been really compressed and now getting a chance to relax. It was only a small amount above the rest of the frog but must have been taking much more than its fair share of the pressure. :eek:
 

PurBee

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That’s amazing to hear gloi. Yes, the relaxation ive experienced too.
It should settle down soon and remain as a flat plane. The rest of the frog now has a chance to develop even better than it was before now its loading evenly.
Its amazing isnt it how fast the foot develops and grows with even just the smallest alteration in trim?
Is he still going better on tarmac?
 

Wheels

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So pleased I started this thread, thanks for sharing everyone.

The renegade vipers arrived and they fit very well so it was worth getting the fit kits. I have used them a couple of times in the arena and lead him out in hand and M is already very confident in them, will hack tomorrow

Pic to show how well he is moving in them, they're a great piece of kit

20191222_170102.jpg
 

Wheels

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Well they will allow us to hack and to train relatively normally until he is less tentative which is great. We will still hack in walk without them from time to time because I think it helps to trim / shape the feet. Definitely worth it
 

Gloi

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Quite amazed how quickly the rest of the frog is developing while I keep lowering that calloused lump which I think seems to swell a bit every day so must have been really compressed and now getting a chance to relax. It was only a small amount above the rest of the frog but must have been taking much more than its fair share of the pressure. :eek:
Just want to say that so far I have had no more problems and his frogs are looking really good :)
 

Wheels

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Resurrecting this thread, we are now about 8 months in and having problems. He was doing really well up until recently but we were at the vets today and he was very footy and sore trotting a circle on the hard surface, worse in front but not great on the backs either.

He was ok circles on soft ground although not striding out quite as much as he can. He was ok if not a wee bit pottery on smooth hard ground in a straight line.

He is overweight and cresty and came in from the field late last week with slightly raised digital pulses in both fronts so possibly a mild lami attack and it might not be the first. However the vet thinks this is only part of the problem and that the dry weather has caused the feet to be in a constant cycle of wear and that has made the feet sensitive. She thinks I should shoe him.

I dont think I want to shoe :( but i cant leave him as he is. I personally think hes had LGL for the last month or so but vet thought that he would not have shown so much improvement between hard and soft ground if it was only lami.

Hes in for the moment on bute and a diet but she wants me to start working him on soft ground as soon as he is capable.

I would really appreciate any advice/ thoughts on this, I dont want to shoe but the horse needs to be comfortable
 

ycbm

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How much does he improve when you take him off grass as food?

I don't get the wear argument either, barefoot horses are always wearing their feet.

I also don't accept her argument that LGL would not produce a big difference between hard and soft surfaces, because in my experience it makes a huge difference.



.
 
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Wheels

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I don't get the dry weather>wear>soreness idea.

did you evaluate bare or with the renegades on?
Bare, I forgot to take the boots with me but she did say to try at home although recommended boots all round and i only have fronts. Still, the fronts are worse so might try anyway and see if there is *some* improvement
 

ester

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I think they can be helpful in determining how much is sole on hard ground issue and how much is deeper/less direct issue, if that makes sense?

I'd absolutely treat as LGL at this point, without going back through what does he get magnesium wise ATM?
 

Wheels

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How much does he improve when you take him off grass as food?

I don't get the seat argument either, barefoot horses are always wearing their feet.

I also don't accept her argument that LGL would not produce a big difference between hard and soft surfaces, because in my experience it makes a huge difference.



.
Re the grass, I'll let you know in a couple of weeks, I pulled him in on wednesday but he needs to lose his crest

I did question some of her logic as she said he would never be sound without shoes but he has been from end jan to end of april, qualified for the dressage nationals etc so was not only sound but going really well.

I will give him a couple of days on the pain meds (which he wont currently eat the fusspot) and then give him a spin in the front boots. I might just try and hire some back boots to see what difference they make.

Vet said that if he was much Improved in the boots then she would shoe as it was likely he was foot sore whereas if it was only a slight improvement we could blame the LGL
 

Wheels

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I think they can be helpful in determining how much is sole on hard ground issue and how much is deeper/less direct issue, if that makes sense?

I'd absolutely treat as LGL at this point, without going back through what does he get magnesium wise ATM?
Hes on equimins plus 15 grams magnesium
 

ycbm

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I wonder what the vet thinks the difference is between sore soles from too much wear and sore soles from laminitis, in respect of boots making it better. I can't see her logic.


.
 

ycbm

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I think you have a vet who doesn't want him to be sound barefoot, she wants to be right about telling you he would never manage it.

I'm afraid I would trust your vet about barefoot as far as I could throw her.

You have a horse who was sound without shoes, then the grass grew. The obvious answer here is that it is the grass.

And if it's not, but it is hard ground wearing the feet too much, then you can boot to prevent it.

Either way, shoes aren't the answer, afaics.

.
 

ester

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All my feeding stuff is a bit historical now, though I can ask mum to weigh the scoop we used for magnesium but I think it has been 30-50g per day (99%) in different locations.
 

Wheels

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Thank you both :)

Because the vet was convinced it is due to too much wear she wants me to stay on soft ground to work him but if hes sounded in boots would it be worth leading out or riding out too or should I leave that for a bit?

I know that early on he was much less foot sore if he walked smooth tarmac a couple of times a week but now with an added complication of lgl is that still advisable?

Is it worth upping the magnesium too esther?
 

Wheels

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I think you have a vet who doesn't want him to be sound barefoot, she wants to be right about telling you he would never manage it.

I'm afraid I would trust your vet about barefoot as far as I could throw her.

You have a horse who was sound without shoes, then the grass grew. The obvious answer here is that it is the grass.

And if it's not, but it is hard ground wearing the feet too much, then you can boot to prevent it.

Either way, shoes aren't the answer, afaics.

.
I think we might try someone else next time!
 

ycbm

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Feed him more magnesium until you reach a a point where his wee goes cloudy. The he's just peeing it away, so feed a tad less than that.

Any work he can do comfortably will help his foot quality, so if he's sound in boots he should work.

.
 
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ester

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Yeah I would up the magnesium, the only time F had a proper crest and tail head fat was when I stopped it.

The only think I might mention given the latest weather is whether sole is being retained (I have seen a few people post about that this year) we had the issue a couple of years ago, he wasn't comfortable and to a certain extent the extra sole put it nearer the ground. I spent a lot of time waiting for rain that year to decide if feet or higher up. It rained, sole shed naturally, issue resolved.
 

Wheels

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Thanks esther, I dont think he is retaining sole at the moment, he was a couple of weeks ago, then we had a wet few days and loads of dead sole material came off with the mud when I picked the feet out, his feet look the best they've ever looked but looks are clearly deceiving at the moment.

I'm waiting for today's xrays to be emailed through, will be interesting to see any changes since the ones last autumn
 

ponyparty

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Vet said that if he was much Improved in the boots then she would shoe as it was likely he was foot sore whereas if it was only a slight improvement we could blame the LGL
Huh?! But LGL/sugar sensitivity causes footiness ie footsore. I’m a bit :rolleyes: at your vet (having heard it all before from my old vet). You say he’s cresty, sounds like a candidate for EMS. Getting him off grass and giving soaked hay will tell you soon enough. Movement is super important though, is there any grass free turnout where you are? Otherwise plenty of exercise, if he’s sound enough in the boots that is. With the rain, then sun, then rain the grass is flushing at the minute; super sugary and dangerous. While I wouldn’t wish grass sensitivity/lami/EMS on anyone, I do hope it is “just” that and can thereforebe controlled with management, rather than something else going on as well.
Footiness is one of the first signs of lami so by shoeing you’d just be masking that and delaying the warning system, so you may not catch it so early next time.
You don’t mention what pain relief he’s on - mine wouldn’t touch bute but would happily eat Danilon; worth a try if you haven’t already.
Sorry if I’m repeating what anyone else has said... hope he improves v soon!
 

Wheels

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Thanks pp hes on danilon and I left his feed bucket in, it was gone within the hour. Hopefully now he knows it wont kill him he'll eat it straight away

We did discuss ems but vet said same as you that it will be diet and exercise to keep it in check
 

ITPersonnage

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Sack the vet she's never going to be on side. Makes me mad. I've heard the same old cr*p from too many vets before. I wish you all the best it sounds like you know what to do, believe in your own instinct !
 

tallyho!

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I just don't understand how intelligent vets STILL don't get barefoot :rolleyes:

You problem is not wear... it's diet and sugar. Yes get that weight off... I'm afraid barefoot does mean that you have to manage everything that goes in - but if you get that bit right, you are there!

My mare is 10 yrs barefoot... since a baby and we had lami at xmas so it doesn't evade us all but I know it's something she ate when she broke through next doors woods! Soaked hay religiously weighed out then borrowed an empty barn so no grass. Xrays were only very slightly sunken but after 6 weeks of trimming weekly to keep that toe back she was sound as a pound and xrays showed P£ back where it should be.
 

Wheels

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Well done tallyho!

I haven't seen yesterdays xrays yet (not allowed into the clinic due to covid restrictions so waiting for them to be emailed) but apparently all was fine and no rotation or sinking.

Very happily tonight I lightly lunged him on hard and soft with front boots on and he did not look sore in any way shape or form. Granted he has had 2 sachets of danilon in the last 24 hours but he was really happy to be moving and floated around the school in trot and even offered canter which I let him for a few strides and then back to trot as I didnt want to overdo it on day 1.

What has come along with the lami is a very sore and tight back which will hopefully ease with the bute but I'll book him in for a massage.
 
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