Folding over jumps

[Sossigpoker]

I see so many people on my feeds not folding at all over jumps ,.they literally stay totally upright.( I don't mean that going horizontal over a 40 cm jump is desirable either ) A lot of these videos are shot by their instructors too and it makes me wonder why they're not teaching people to relax at the hip and go with the movement? Or is this how it's done now? I can't imagine you could stay balanced over bigger jumps if you remain completely upright (and you're probably jabbing the horse in the mouth too )

Thoughts?

 

[wren123]

I don't think many people are taught how to fold, I see so many people standing in their stirrups.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I don't think many people are taught how to fold, I see so many people standing in their stirrups.

Exactly this! And standing totally upright too. How do they not fall off?!

 

[Barton Bounty]

There was a post about this a couple of months ago, they aren’t taught like that now, ill still fold like i was taught

 

[Sossigpoker]

There was a post about this a couple of months ago, they aren’t taught like that now, ill still fold like i was taught

Why do you think that is?
I don't jump big fences but even over small ones , the horse's movement invites you to do a little fold ,.doesn't it? I don't think I'd stay on if I just stood upright!

 

[marmalade76]

Most of them ride too long for jumping too.

 

[LEC]

Upright shoulders are much better for balancing the horse and staying out of the way of the horses movement. I have so many videos of me moving my shoulders too early and unbalancing the horse. Hours and hours actually!! As long as the arm is soft and the hips forward the shoulders should be away. It also, especially for kids provides better security to stop them falling off and be better through the lower leg if the eyes are up.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

If I try to fold too much I generally get left behind the movement, it's just not something that comes naturally to me I find it easier to balance (without grabbing the horse's mouth) if I'm stood slightly.

 

[DeliaRides]

This is interesting as I've been observing this for a while. In fairness, I'm mostly watching unaffiliated SJ and mostly juniors, but I've seen this too. Many simply sit and 'pop' when they're over smaller jumps, but don't evolve their technique as they move up the heights. I see kids jumping 70-80 at local shows and it begins to look like they lack flow.

From what I've seen, it tends to appear as if the non-folders are sort of lifting the ponies over the fence with their hands, and from the ones I know, I suspect it comes from not trusting the pony not to stop. It's OK at dinky 30-40cm classes, but as they move up it starts to look awkward. I notice it again when flicking through the millions of event photography snaps to find our own.

My daughter has always folded but has a forward whizzy jumping pony that always takes her into a fence and never stops, so she's never sat up as a self-preservation thing.

 

[LEC]

Whereas you don’t need to fold until around 1.10 really. If you watch the sjing kids who over fold their lower legs are not great at all. If you watch Ros Canter she doesn’t fold that much, doesn’t need to as she is tiny and perfectly balanced. I think the modern way of teaching is 100x more effective as they stay out of the horses way in better balance and this translates up the levels better. I spent years having to undo the too forwards jump position especially at 1.10m + where my natural inclination is to tip the shoulders too quickly then ruins the jump.

 

[Peglo]

When I had jump lessons last year my instructor told me to stop falling forward and sit tall and quietly and let the horse do her job. I was unbalancing her by thinking about folding over the jump. We both went much better when I stopped interfering and sat up. We weren’t doing big jumps and I’m sure I would've learnt to fold if I needed to but it was better for her if I sat up than override.

 

[ycbm]

I wasn't taught to fold by taking my shoulders forward, but by taking my bum back. I think that helps with not going to soon.

I agree that there seem to be a lot of photos of people jumping with stirrups too long who aren't giving at all with the hands. One you get over about a metre I think it's very difficult to give enough with the hands to allow the horse to use its neck unless you slip the reins or fold.

 

[wren123]

@ybcm that's exactly what I was taught.

 

[LEC]

I think people need to decide what is upright and what isn’t. Ros is a fairly ‘upright’ rider but rides in perfect balance and does fold but also can react quickly in her position not to be pulled out saddle or tipped forwards - the kid I have posted is what you are trying to avoid as no security

 

[maya2008]

On a talented 16hh horse, you couldn’t stand bolt upright no, but you could easily barely fold so long as you have a minimal bend in knees and hips and give with hands as needed. On a not so talented all rounder that’s not so trained or fit and is having to put serious effort into clearing the fences…not so much. On a small pony…definitely not! There is danger in applying what works with a talented, well trained athlete to the rest of us. I have unfortunately seen too many ponies and small horses jabbed in the mouth, riders falling backwards and unable to go with the movement, as a result of this teaching being applied too far down the line. One instructor tried to apply it to my son, whose Shetland liked to catapult the two of them merrily over 70cm. Height of horse vs height of jump was not even considered. I said, “Watch them first…” She then quickly agreed he very much needed to fold! The Shetland in question was 104cm, jump being 67% of pony’s height, which is equivalent to a 16.2hh jumping 110cm. Moreover, pony had power but not exactly athleticism, so her happy jumping style very much resembled that of a catapult, not a smooth arc as a more sporty build would produce.

 

[ycbm]

I think people need to decide what is upright and what isn’t. Ros is a fairly ‘upright’ rider but rides in perfect balance and does fold but also can react quickly in her position not to be pulled out saddle or tipped forwards - the kid I have posted is what you are trying to avoid as no security

The big difference is in how far forward the bum is. The child is too far forward. (And has stirrups too long.)

Ros is folded, the child is not.

 

[ycbm]

Duplicate

 

[toppedoff]

I wasn't taught to fold by taking my shoulders forward, but by taking my bum back. I think that helps with not going to soon.

oh thats a sentence that has made it click for me, thank you!

 

[Barton Bounty]

Why do you think that is?
I don't jump big fences but even over small ones , the horse's movement invites you to do a little fold ,.doesn't it? I don't think I'd stay on if I just stood upright!

I dont know why, but they are teaching a more upright position, I am old school, learned to jump on a 17.2 ID lol

 

[SDMabel]

I was taught to ride by my old school- BHS instructor mum , I was always taught to stick my bottom back and not to fold up the neck - more of your traditional hunting seat.

I had a lesson once at a place that did jump cross but you had to use their instructor , i kept getting told off for folding and was told to just raise out of the saddle in a more upright seat as if my horse stopped I was less likely to come off. which I'd maybe understand if you were folded up their neck.....

My mother had come along and was at the side twitching

 

[Sossigpoker]

Well if your balance is over the horses neck when you fold , then you're just leaning forward. I was taught to keep the weight on my heels so the bum goes back and only fold as much as the horse's movement invites you to.
This whole staying upright looks silly and very novicey to me !

 

[Barton Bounty]

Especially when it looks like their legs are straight and sticking out

Well if your balance is over the horses neck when you fold , then you're just leaning forward. I was taught to keep the weight on my heels so the bum goes back and only fold as much as the horse's movement invites you to.
This whole staying upright looks silly and very novicey to me !

 

[marmalade76]

I wasn't taught to fold by taking my shoulders forward, but by taking my bum back. I think that helps with not going to soon.

I agree that there seem to be a lot of photos of people jumping with stirrups too long who aren't giving at all with the hands. One you get over about a metre I think it's very difficult to give enough with the hands to allow the horse to use its neck unless you slip the reins or fold.

Agreed. I was struggling to understand how having the hips forward would work as mentioned up thread, except perhaps down a drop?

 

[LEC]

I have worked very hard to ride this upright and reduce the fold - this is a lesson with a 5* eventer and over some small jumps. If going to be critical my hands could be lower

 

[marmalade76]

I think people need to decide what is upright and what isn’t. Ros is a fairly ‘upright’ rider but rides in perfect balance and does fold but also can react quickly in her position not to be pulled out saddle or tipped forwards - the kid I have posted is what you are trying to avoid as no security

I have to disagree, Ros is not upright, she looks pretty close to the horse to me. That's not the best pic of her, she's drawn her heels up, she usually looks better.

 

[Lady Jane]

I wasn't taught to fold by taking my shoulders forward, but by taking my bum back. I think that helps with not going to soon.

I agree that there seem to be a lot of photos of people jumping with stirrups too long who aren't giving at all with the hands. One you get over about a metre I think it's very difficult to give enough with the hands to allow the horse to use its neck unless you slip the reins or fold.

I have resumed my jumping career (over little jumps I must say on a very reliable and clever little horse who sorts it all out for me). I have no idea how I was taught and haven't jumped for over 20 years but my instructor is teaching me as you - fold by taking my bum back and not letting my shoulders in front of the movement.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I was recently thinking the opposite, I’ve seen some photos and riders are folded so much they’re led on the horses neck.

I use to find folding easy, but having not jumped 4 years I’m finding it more difficult with my mare. I think I obsess over it to much and forget everything else.. Also much more difficult when they’re green as grass.

 

[ycbm]

View attachment 115683
I have worked very hard to ride this upright and reduce the fold - this is a lesson with a 5* eventer and over some small jumps. If going to be critical my hands could be lower

is the trainer actually trying to stop you folding, or trying to stop you getting your shoulders in front of your knees? If the first. I don't understand why they want you to ride like that, it's so much more difficult to absorb the movement of the horse.

 

[ycbm]

I was recently thinking the opposite, I’ve seen some photos and riders are folded so much they’re led on the horses neck.

But that isn't folding. That's leaning forward. If you are folded your shoulders are not, or not much, in front of your knees.

 

[LEC]

is the trainer actually trying to stop you folding, or trying to stop you getting your shoulders in front of your knees? If the first. I don't understand why they want you to ride like that, it's so much more difficult to absorb the movement of the horse.

Controlling the shoulders - everything then goes into the legs. Everything is central and balanced. Absolutely do not want bum back and shoulders forwards. Interesting this post has sparked me to look at NH jockeys and they are more upright than I expected but due to length of stirrups they fold more