Folding over jumps

[marmalade76]

I could share dozens but there was a very sharp comment made recently about sharing photos that are old, and I haven't jumped properly in years. Most of my photos look like my avatar. I was taught over grids with no reins and developed an instinctive fold to absorb the movement of the horse.

ETA I rode big fences 8 holes shorter than my dressage length.

Why the sharp comments? The oldies are my faves!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: meh, it's probably not worth it!

 

[ycbm]

Why the sharp comments? The oldies are my faves!

I'd prefer to put up new ones but I just don't have the guts to do those fences any more!
.

 

[SEL]

I was trying to find a screen shot I have of how not to do it - but on my old phone I think.

I'd been schooling the Appy on the flat with normal stirrups and popped her over a x pole someone had up. I am standing up exactly as the OP says. I'm not in her way but it's definitely not a jumping position

I know exactly what the OP means. I know a young rider near me who is all over Instagram who jumps like that over quite big fences. Every time I see a photo I'm itching to shorten her stirrups. I think with shorter stirrups you have to bend more and get your bum out behind you otherwise you'll be over the head wouldn't you?

I haven't jumped properly since the dinosaurs were around but I always found my position improved over bigger fences.

 

[ycbm]

LEC I think it was very brave of you to put your photos up. If that's what a 5* rider is teaching you then it explains what we are seeing on social media.

For me, the biomechanics of it is all wrong.

 

[ycbm]

Three very different horses. The first one was a horse who I couldn't control unless I sat bolt upright with my bum in the saddle all the way to the take off. If you got in front of him he practically bolted to the next fence, show jumping. My avatar horse wouldn't jump consistently unless my bum was out of the saddle all the way to the take off. And I was riding both in the same time period so I had to make sure what software was loaded

I'm not suggesting any of these are perfect, but they are all folded to stop the shoulders going to far forwards.

 

[PSD]

I could easily show you pictures of how not to do it, my position is terrible. I’m working on it though, I use my stirrups too much and bring my heels up, it tips me forward which ultimately results in me coming off sometimes because I’m unbalanced on landing.

Pony is very honest though thankfully and helps me out, but it’s a learning curve. These photos you’re all sharing are very helpful, not sure where I went wrong because I used to jump at pony club and my position was fab! I think it’s nerves for me, I tense up too much and just sort of hunch forward. Hopefully in 12 months (after lessons) I can look back and see improvement

 

[scats]

Bum back, close the angles. Keep behind the shoulders.
Old photo as I don’t jump anymore.

 

[marmalade76]

I'd prefer to put up new ones but I just don't have the guts to do those fences any more!
.

Nor me.

 

[AmyMay]

Nor me.

I never did

 

[Auslander]

There's a very big difference between an experienced rider, who is capable of not interfering with the horse, no matter where they are sitting - and the vast majority, who don't have this skill, and need to be taught to jump in a balanced, safe position, which is NOT standing in the stirrups half way up the horses neck.
I like to see the rider with the lower leg on the girth, balanced over the horses centre of gravity, with the ability to open and close the angle of the hip to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the height of the fence, and how much jump the horse has. I don't enjoy seeing riders of any level standing in the stirrups with an open hip angle, climbing the horses neck, but I will concede that it's different strokes for different folks once you have the basics.

 

[Scoti1420]

Old photo but if I could recreate this every time I jumped - not XC as this would be too forward for my liking - I would be a very happy bunny

 

[DabDab]

There's a very big difference between an experienced rider, who is capable of not interfering with the horse, no matter where they are sitting - and the vast majority, who don't have this skill, and need to be taught to jump in a balanced, safe position, which is NOT standing in the stirrups half way up the horses neck.
I like to see the rider with the lower leg on the girth, balanced over the horses centre of gravity, with the ability to open and close the angle of the hip to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the height of the fence, and how much jump the horse has. I don't enjoy seeing riders of any level standing in the stirrups with an open hip angle, climbing the horses neck, but I will concede that it's different strokes for different folks once you have the basics.

Absolutely this. If you look at pictures of someone like Ros Canter (picking her as she has already been mentioned), you'll see a whole range of positions captured as a moment in time. And probably a good 30% of those positions would cause someone like me to lose a certain amount of balance, even if I only got into them for a second or so, whereas someone like Ros can stay dynamically in balance even getting into variety of positions over a fence because she is phenomenally strong and capable.

For me personally, really anchoring my lower leg and softening my elbows in the last three strides before a fence and focusing on the fact I have to sit up after the fence is enough to keep me in good balance over the fence

 

[anguscat]

Sadly I’m pathetic now.

 

[TheMule]

There's more than one way to string a cat….. so long as the horse has a soft hand and a soft landing on its back, I don’t really think individual styles matter too much. I fold too much on the take-off phase- always have done- but they jump really well, I always have careful horses (all home produced, not reaping the work of others!) and they don’t stop. I'm also very strong through my core so I land in balance

As an example, this is shoulders too forward, especially for a 90cm jump. With a slight disclaimer that my horse is too fat for a nice saddle so my stirrups are a hole too long

 

[LEC]

I do think we get very hung up on it. I addressed why kids are taught this style now as a starting point but we seem to have missed this point! What I do know is the kids who are taught this style tend to go up the levels with good balance and look safe. It also gets finessed as they get older, more experienced and stronger through their bodies. It’s adults who I see looking shit in the saddle jumping, not kids.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I think people need to decide what is upright and what isn’t. Ros is a fairly ‘upright’ rider but rides in perfect balance and does fold but also can react quickly in her position not to be pulled out saddle or tipped forwards - the kid I have posted is what you are trying to avoid as no security

The child's hip angle itself is fine. The actual issue with the kid's position is that the lower leg has slipped back, which has pinned them on their knee, which then pivots the entire body forward. Tip their entire body backward 15 degrees and it would be in decent balance. The rider isn't insecure because the upper body is too far forward, but because the leg has slipped back...resulting in the upper body being too far ahead.



Just being on these boards and being in the UK the last two years, there is a strange (to me) obsession on "fold" - its varying degrees, what is correct, etc. Bottom line, it depends on the jump height, ground/terrain, strength of the rider, and amount of push from the horse. What gets lost in the focus on the fold itself is the need for the rider's base of support (lower leg) to be extremely secure to allow for the rider to stay in balance and over their own center of gravity, no matter the size of the fence or the amount of push the horse is offering over the jump. Many riders I see (and plenty back home in the US too) are riding with way too long stirrups and/or loose lower legs. Even when the stirrups are shortened, those with loose bases of support/weak lower legs will end up tipping forward with their whole body, regardless of the angle of closure in their hip angle ("fold").

Short stirrups, paired with a strong lower leg/base of support, gives you the ability to close your hip angle slightly and allow the horse to jump up to you, thus closing the gap further and only to the necessary degree. And the stronger the base of support, the more independent the hand/arms can be and offer more of a release to the horse's head/neck. Personally, I find the lack of release to be a mortal sin in jumping, and could care less about the degree of the hip angle/fold. So long as the horse's mouth/head/neck are unhindered and the rider is off the horse's back, that's the most important. An independent hand that can support the necessary degree of release to the horse's mouth over the jump can only be effectively done with a strong base of support. Growing up in the States, green riders learned the crest release and to grab mane over the fence while they got stronger in their lower leg and core. Once their base of support was strong enough, they could be transitioned into the following hand/automatic release (straight line from bit to elbow, hands down along the side of the neck). Those that couldn't grasp the crest released used neck straps. Almost everyone used to do gymnastic exercises without reins and stirrups as well, on top of lots of no-stirrup work on the flat. Oh, the good old days...

Over here I see more people riding with long stirrups, loose legs/weak bases of support, a tendency to stand in the irons over the fence, and little or no release over the fence. All of which end up with the horse getting slammed in the mouth and back on the landing side of the jump. Back in the States I saw less of that, but instead saw more of the opposite: jumping ahead (extreme examples result in ducking or laying on the neck) and overexaggerated releases. I was 100% guilty of it as a teenager and had to work hard to stay up/off the horse with my upper body over the fence, but still keep my hip angle closed. That said, as ugly as jumping ahead is, and as much as it leaves the rider more prone to getting dumped in front of the fence if the horse decides to stop, it's far less punishing to the horse. That said, neither extreme is good.

To put my money where my mouth is, here are some photos of me, on different horses over fences ranging from cross rails to 1.25:

 

[Tiddlypom]

Over here I see more people riding with long stirrups, loose legs/weak bases of support, a tendency to stand in the irons over the fence, and little or no release over the fence. All of which end up with the horse getting slammed in the mouth and back on the landing side of the jump.

That's what I'm seeing too much of now, too. I liken it to how someone stands in front of a lectern - standing up in the irons over a jump with little or no give in the arms and hands, and then a crash back into the saddle on landing.

Along with the current fashion for flatwork with arms and hands fixed low and wide, grr.

Goodness knows how these bad habits have become so common place.

 

[IrishMilo]

I *think* when I jump my natural reaction is to put my bum back so my heels and leg stay stable. I try to not actively think about my arms or hands or I end up over cooking it and I look like a chicken I also think it's easy to be really critical of yourself from a still shot and pick it to shreds when it really is just a snapshot. The overall picture is much more useful.

https://imgur.com/BvqopXJ

 

[spacefaer]

@IrishMilo love the security of your lower leg.

I struggle to put pics up but will give it a go ..... Bear wth!

 

[marmalade76]

The child's hip angle itself is fine. The actual issue with the kid's position is that the lower leg has slipped back, which has pinned them on their knee, which then pivots the entire body forward. Tip their entire body backward 15 degrees and it would be in decent balance. The rider isn't insecure because the upper body is too far forward, but because the leg has slipped back...resulting in the upper body being too far ahead.



Just being on these boards and being in the UK the last two years, there is a strange (to me) obsession on "fold" - its varying degrees, what is correct, etc. Bottom line, it depends on the jump height, ground/terrain, strength of the rider, and amount of push from the horse. What gets lost in the focus on the fold itself is the need for the rider's base of support (lower leg) to be extremely secure to allow for the rider to stay in balance and over their own center of gravity, no matter the size of the fence or the amount of push the horse is offering over the jump. Many riders I see (and plenty back home in the US too) are riding with way too long stirrups and/or loose lower legs. Even when the stirrups are shortened, those with loose bases of support/weak lower legs will end up tipping forward with their whole body, regardless of the angle of closure in their hip angle ("fold").

Short stirrups, paired with a strong lower leg/base of support, gives you the ability to close your hip angle slightly and allow the horse to jump up to you, thus closing the gap further and only to the necessary degree. And the stronger the base of support, the more independent the hand/arms can be and offer more of a release to the horse's head/neck. Personally, I find the lack of release to be a mortal sin in jumping, and could care less about the degree of the hip angle/fold. So long as the horse's mouth/head/neck are unhindered and the rider is off the horse's back, that's the most important. An independent hand that can support the necessary degree of release to the horse's mouth over the jump can only be effectively done with a strong base of support. Growing up in the States, green riders learned the crest release and to grab mane over the fence while they got stronger in their lower leg and core. Once their base of support was strong enough, they could be transitioned into the following hand/automatic release (straight line from bit to elbow, hands down along the side of the neck). Those that couldn't grasp the crest released used neck straps. Almost everyone used to do gymnastic exercises without reins and stirrups as well, on top of lots of no-stirrup work on the flat. Oh, the good old days...

Over here I see more people riding with long stirrups, loose legs/weak bases of support, a tendency to stand in the irons over the fence, and little or no release over the fence. All of which end up with the horse getting slammed in the mouth and back on the landing side of the jump. Back in the States I saw less of that, but instead saw more of the opposite: jumping ahead (extreme examples result in ducking or laying on the neck) and overexaggerated releases. I was 100% guilty of it as a teenager and had to work hard to stay up/off the horse with my upper body over the fence, but still keep my hip angle closed. That said, as ugly as jumping ahead is, and as much as it leaves the rider more prone to getting dumped in front of the fence if the horse decides to stop, it's far less punishing to the horse. That said, neither extreme is good.

To put my money where my mouth is, here are some photos of me, on different horses over fences ranging from cross rails to 1.25:

View attachment 115782 View attachment 115786View attachment 115787

View attachment 115783 View attachment 115788 View attachment 115785
View attachment 115784

Love your post!! ❤❤
I too was taught to hold the mane, here in GB by old school folks who were mainly into showing & dressage and taught me on their retired show ponies - god help you if you pulled one of them in the mouth! I also feel it's the biggest sin you can commit, it's no reward for a horse that has jumped for you and this had led me to become too forward at times but I can live with that. I use a neck strap these days.

As for the horse moving up into you and folding you, I totally get that, I had exactly that feeling on the arab around the same time as those pics I posted. I haven't jumped much since I had children and my oldest is 17 now and I haven't jumped much over 2' for getting on for ten years. Riding the arab over tiny jumps in the school one day, I surprised myself by seeing a stride and it was perfect - I got a little over excited and regressed back to my pre-child self and really rode for it instead of sitting there like a wet lettuce. The arab responded with an absolutely enormous jump! And like you described, he moved up into the space I had been occupying and I just folded up and my hands dropped either side of his neck and it was a bit of a wow moment, the body could still do it, shame about the nerves!

 

[spacefaer]

Little horse who pinged up through his withers. I call this the monkey on a stick position!
ETA if I had been any further forward up his neck, I'd have pushed his shoulders down towards the fence. He was only little (16hh in shoes) and that was a BE Int fence

 

[spacefaer]

This is what happens when your stirrup leathers are about 4 holes too long - I'm standing on my tiptoes, hurling my shoulders forward and my bum is way too high. Very very strong horse who towed me into every fence

 

[spacefaer]

To me, the ultimate in defensive riding
Ready to land and gallop on

 

[Birker2020]

If I try to fold too much I generally get left behind the movement, it's just not something that comes naturally to me I find it easier to balance (without grabbing the horse's mouth) if I'm stood slightly.

Me too. Most of them were like that.

 

[toppedoff]

these are so interesting, thank you all for sharing

 

[spacefaer]

Excuse the thermal chaps- it was very cold! Again, trying to stay over his centre of gravity

 

[SEL]

This photo may come out huge but I'm pretty sure its what the OP means. I had been schooling in the arena and just popped her over a jump at the end which was out for the friend I was schooling with. Is off a phone video so not the best

And actually I was more bothered about her left hind than my position. This was the 'there is nothing wrong with that horse she's just being fat and lazy' stage with the vets. There was indeed a fair amount wrong and I'm pretty sure it was later that year it all unravelled. I doubt one jump made any difference whatsoever but I dislike this photo for a lot, lot more than the fact I need to get my backside out behind me (plus its tiny!)

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I've never been taught to jump really. You know when you first get taught at riding school you are put into the "position" and you trot round a few x poles? That's the full extent of my jumping experience. I've never been taught to see a stride or to count strides or the likes. I can see if I am wrong 3 or 4 strides out but that's too late to do anything about it. Yet I can see if someone else is wrong 10-15 strides out. Its a weird one. I just hold onto my neckstrap, close my eyes and prey I have the core strength to stay up off of the horses back and go with them. We don't do sitting down jumps, we are always up out of the saddle

I rarely jump. I don't feel the need to. But sometimes I do get a mad moment and jump one of the work horses that I trust over the small obstacles that are more trip hazards than jumps.

The last couple of pics are of when it goes wrong - and it's not me on the horses I was just chief photographer

 

[PSD]

I've never been taught to jump really. You know when you first get taught at riding school you are put into the "position" and you trot round a few x poles? That's the full extent of my jumping experience. I've never been taught to see a stride or to count strides or the likes. I can see if I am wrong 3 or 4 strides out but that's too late to do anything about it. Yet I can see if someone else is wrong 10-15 strides out. Its a weird one. I just hold onto my neckstrap, close my eyes and prey I have the core strength to stay up off of the horses back and go with them. We don't do sitting down jumps, we are always up out of the saddle

I rarely jump. I don't feel the need to. But sometimes I do get a mad moment and jump one of the work horses that I trust over the small obstacles that are more trip hazards than jumps.

The last couple of pics are of when it goes wrong - and it's not me on the horses I was just chief photographer

Yikes that last one looks like it hurt!