marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Having your bum out behind you is the counterbalance to your shoulders.
Folding over jumps
- Thread starter Sossigpoker
- Start date
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
in the photo with the kid, are they using the stirrups to jump rather than fold? im still learning forgive me
sbloom
Well-Known Member
So much depends on the saddle and in particular stirrup bar placement. Hips forwards keeps you over your feet in a saddle with very forward bars and is a big part of the reason people climb up the neck as is George Morris in the US. I'm seldom convinced that we should copy what's winning in competition. We should be looking at what is biomechanically helpful for the horse (I know we all think we're doing that), what uses less of their energy AND ours.
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sbloom
Well-Known Member
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
roger yvest bost anyone? i find him very interesting
wren123
Well-Known Member
Totally agree
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't think I can be explaining this right but jumpers don't/shouldn't want their shoulders forwards in front of the movement of the horse at all.
Personally I also don't want to be standing up in my stirrups because then I can't absorb the movement. So the answer to that is a genuine fold, to close the angles on the hips and knees while keeping the top half of the body over the centre of gravity of the horse. The bum goes backwards if you do that.
spacefaer
Well-Known Member
Modern jumping positions - one of my pet peeves
I was taught that the rider should only move sufficiently to remain above the horse's centre of gravity. As the horse takes off over the fence, the centre of gravity moves forward so the rider should be balanced and keep their shoulders over the horse's shoulders. So over a small fence, there would be a minimal fold, over a big fence, a more increased fold. The horse needs freedom to be able to get his forehand up off the ground in front of the fence.
Where I think things have changed is that riders are tending to have longer stirrup leathers. So where I was taught to have my weight in my foot and my lower leg reasonably perpendicular to the ground, to give stability to the fold, that's much less possible with a longer, straighter leg. That means that the rider tends to pivot around the knee, allowing the lower leg to move back, sometimes to a 45° angle, and the upper body descends to the horse's neck.
I think the more upright school of teaching is trying to counteract that, but since the instructor hasn't shortened the rider's leathers, it means that the rider becomes behind the movement and tends to restrict the horse's shoulder/neck. At lower heights, this is less of an issue, but as the jumps go up, the horse is going to struggle.
I was taught that the rider should only move sufficiently to remain above the horse's centre of gravity. As the horse takes off over the fence, the centre of gravity moves forward so the rider should be balanced and keep their shoulders over the horse's shoulders. So over a small fence, there would be a minimal fold, over a big fence, a more increased fold. The horse needs freedom to be able to get his forehand up off the ground in front of the fence.
Where I think things have changed is that riders are tending to have longer stirrup leathers. So where I was taught to have my weight in my foot and my lower leg reasonably perpendicular to the ground, to give stability to the fold, that's much less possible with a longer, straighter leg. That means that the rider tends to pivot around the knee, allowing the lower leg to move back, sometimes to a 45° angle, and the upper body descends to the horse's neck.
I think the more upright school of teaching is trying to counteract that, but since the instructor hasn't shortened the rider's leathers, it means that the rider becomes behind the movement and tends to restrict the horse's shoulder/neck. At lower heights, this is less of an issue, but as the jumps go up, the horse is going to struggle.
ponynutz
Well-Known Member
Any videos I’ve seen of Lucinda Green teaching she always encourages people to “sit up” to prevent over folding. If you watch her daughter jump she has a much similar position to Ros and absorbs all the movement in her legs while folding enough to give the horse freedom to move his head.
anguscat
Well-Known Member
I always said to my kids think of pushing bum backwards. Seems to make the notion of folding easier.
When I see a ‘stander’ always reminds me of Hugo Simon jumping…but they tended to be mighty fences he was jumping!
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Mudfukkle
Well-Known Member
My issue, is not with the folding, but with the lack of giving with the hand!
It drives me insane to see ponies/horses socked in the mouth as the poor things try and jump. I feel that people are not taught the importance of giving with the hand. Kids just seem to keep their hands on the withers and never learn to give forward, they don't have to fold whilst doing this, but they shouldn't interfere with the mouth.
It drives me insane to see ponies/horses socked in the mouth as the poor things try and jump. I feel that people are not taught the importance of giving with the hand. Kids just seem to keep their hands on the withers and never learn to give forward, they don't have to fold whilst doing this, but they shouldn't interfere with the mouth.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
My issue, is not with the folding, but with the lack of giving with the hand!
It drives me insane to see ponies/horses socked in the mouth as the poor things try and jump. I feel that people are not taught the importance of giving with the hand. Kids just seem to keep their hands on the withers and never learn to give forward, they don't have to fold whilst doing this, but they shouldn't interfere with the mouth.
I agree. Too many horses looking like they are jumping in side reins. They can cope to about a metre, then it all falls to pieces of the rider can't give the rein.
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sbloom
Well-Known Member
And yet....https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lucinda+green+over+jump&t=vivaldi&iax=images&ia=images. I think we interpret things very differently, and we feel things differently, our bodies lie to us, proprioception is everything and ultimately we are all prey to physical forces and need to do the best we can to absorb them.
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
Whether she's folded or not her balance is always spot on. A great rider should be adaptable to whatever the situation is - as beautifully demonstrated by these photos.
I've not seen one of her - or any great rider- stood upright like they're about to eat their dinner , which is what my post was originally about.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Agreed 100%, but I would say she's folded unless particular circumstances cause balance to require something different, the fold is the default. A squat of appropriate depth balanced over the feet.
moosea
Well-Known Member
Have you ever jumped without reins?
Every person I taught to jump had at least one lesson jumping with out reins, usually pretty early on, so they could develop the feel of what the horse needs you to do.
The shoulders should not really be in front of the knees and the lower leg neds to be more compressed ( shorter stirrups) to allow the hip, knee and ankle to absorb the movement.
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
I don't think you need to be reducing the fold but focusing on keeping your weight back. Your centre of gravity is in front of the horse ,.the purpose of the fold is to keep your COG stable as well as being able to give with the hands. If you put the weight into your heels and just allowed your hips to close , pushing your bum back, you'd be more balanced and not in front of the horse.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Well, I will stick with what I am doing as pretty happy with the result. If you look all my weight is in my heels. I used to ride with bum back and every single trainer at top level has changed it as shoulders were too forwards and balance wrong. I spend hours dissecting photos and videos so though it’s not perfect but they are tiny jumps. It probably looks a bit more natural over a bigger jump of 1.10m+. For me I don’t interfere with horses balance and they can use their neck. Thing is I have shared photos so maybe foolish or brave as nobody else has
moosea
Well-Known Member
Well, I will stick with what I am doing as pretty happy with the result. If you look all my weight is in my heels. I used to ride with bum back and every single trainer at top level has changed it as shoulders were too forwards and balance wrong. I spend hours dissecting photos and videos so though it’s not perfect but they are tiny jumps. It probably looks a bit more natural over a bigger jump of 1.10m+. For me I don’t interfere with horses balance and they can use their neck. Thing is I have shared photos so maybe foolish or brave as nobody else has
I don't think it's foolish at all.
However to me, as an old school instructor, I was always taught to keep the centre of gravity with the horse and if you look at the picture where you are standing up over the jump, your
COG is in front of the movement. On landing you are on the reins.
Please, if you can do it safely, try placing pole then tying your reins in a knot and letting go of reins about 3 strides out. You will really get a great feel.
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
ive seen a few people who have the reins on the neck when jumping, its very bizarreMy issue, is not with the folding, but with the lack of giving with the hand!
It drives me insane to see ponies/horses socked in the mouth as the poor things try and jump. I feel that people are not taught the importance of giving with the hand. Kids just seem to keep their hands on the withers and never learn to give forward, they don't have to fold whilst doing this, but they shouldn't interfere with the mouth.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I was always taught that you want to allow the horse to move underneath you. A slight fold from the waist and a giving hand was all you needed (along with a secure lower leg).
The pictures posted on here from bygone days shows riders beautifully balanced with their horses (although I appreciate that they’re going over hefty fences which require more technicality than smaller ones).
The pictures posted on here from bygone days shows riders beautifully balanced with their horses (although I appreciate that they’re going over hefty fences which require more technicality than smaller ones).
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Just checked and horses mouth isn’t open at all. I think the landing looks deceptive as she has a phenomenal backend this is why she doesn’t have any martingale on ever - this isn’t your average horse and actually you don’t have very much in the hand. She over reacts to the hand so I effectively neck rein her round a course. I over analyse everything to death but ultimately look at whether the mouth is open and hers never is and she is just in a plain noseband and snaffle so you could tell immediately.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
. Thing is I have shared photos so maybe foolish or brave as nobody else has
I could share dozens but there was a very sharp comment made recently about sharing photos that are old, and I haven't jumped properly in years. Most of my photos look like my avatar. I was taught over grids with no reins and developed an instinctive fold to absorb the movement of the horse.
ETA I rode big fences 8 holes shorter than my dressage length.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Folding isn't from the waist, the rider's back should be straight. The fold is in the hip and knee joints.
AmyMay
Situation normal
moosea
Well-Known Member
The horse dosen't need to have its mouth open for the hand to restrict it. I was looking more at the horses head and neck position.
The horses head has come up and your hands have come back towards your core. The horse at that point only has one front foot on the ground. I'd expect a lower head position so the horse can bunch it's self ready to take the 'getaway' stride.
That is what I see in these picutres - its not meant to be a critical of you or your riding. I was taught a very different way.
moosea
Well-Known Member
Now that... that's a jumping position to me. Your lower leg has remained in place ready to support, guide and ride away, you are not way out of the saddle, good fold to follow horses movement,weight in tune with horses COG and hands apart and either side of the neck. Wish my body would allow me to do that these days!!
maya2008
Well-Known Member
I spent hours trotting and cantering round to demo my balanced position and strength before I was ever allowed near a jump. Simon says in jump position, hands off pony, steering, bending poles and all sorts. My kids have done similar. Then there was jumping with reins knotted and hands out to the sides and all the other exercises. Guess making sure of an independent seat over the jump went out of fashion?
I think also some of it is caused by having a too big pony too young. My son spent a summer jumping my old 13.2hh when he grew out of his Shetland. He struggled massively on both her and my 13hh NF with releasing the reins enough. His arms just were not long enough. To do a good job, he would have had to climb half way up her neck. It was a huge shame because he rode them both beautifully on the flat, just not physically big enough yet to do a good job over the jumps. I picked a ‘right sized’ pony when we went hunting for a Shetland replacement, and he was balanced enough on that one to teach the pony to jump (and then the rest of the ones who have followed!). He can sit all manner of fliers on this lot and never touch their mouths, because his size and pony’s size are a sensible match. Similarly one of the sharers I had when my kids were small, had a fantastic jump position on my 13.2hh. She went from her onto a 15hh though and was soon lying on the horse’s neck over the jumps.
I think also some of it is caused by having a too big pony too young. My son spent a summer jumping my old 13.2hh when he grew out of his Shetland. He struggled massively on both her and my 13hh NF with releasing the reins enough. His arms just were not long enough. To do a good job, he would have had to climb half way up her neck. It was a huge shame because he rode them both beautifully on the flat, just not physically big enough yet to do a good job over the jumps. I picked a ‘right sized’ pony when we went hunting for a Shetland replacement, and he was balanced enough on that one to teach the pony to jump (and then the rest of the ones who have followed!). He can sit all manner of fliers on this lot and never touch their mouths, because his size and pony’s size are a sensible match. Similarly one of the sharers I had when my kids were small, had a fantastic jump position on my 13.2hh. She went from her onto a 15hh though and was soon lying on the horse’s neck over the jumps.
myheartinahoofbeat
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have been thinking about this recently as whenever I look at the photos of me jumping, I'm never happy with my position. Bum back or hips back is working for me and if you look at NH jockeys, they are exactly this
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Well, I will stick with what I am doing as pretty happy with the result. If you look all my weight is in my heels. I used to ride with bum back and every single trainer at top level has changed it as shoulders were too forwards and balance wrong. I spend hours dissecting photos and videos so though it’s not perfect but they are tiny jumps. It probably looks a bit more natural over a bigger jump of 1.10m+. For me I don’t interfere with horses balance and they can use their neck. Thing is I have shared photos so maybe foolish or brave as nobody else has
Challenge accepted!
These are screen shots from a video, it's a couple of years ago now and I hadn't done much jumping before this and I haven't done much since, quite honestly I sh!t myself jumping these days! Considering how rusty I was and my total loss of confidence, I was quite pleased with myself. This was my little arab, he liked to flick his back end up on landing too and when you're riding something small, you have to work a lot harder on you balance because you won't get away with things as much as with something bigger.
