Folding over jumps

[Elf On A Shelf]

Yikes that last one looks like it hurt!

Soft landing at no speed at all that was the horses first time seeing a jump in Britain, the lad was being cocky and didn't bother to show him what he would be jumping. So the horse went "nuh uh!". He has since gone on to win 3 hurdles races last season and always placed in the others. The video that the screen shot came from is funny

You do need the sound on to appreciate the full amusement of it

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[SEL]

Soft landing at no speed at all that was the horses first time seeing a jump in Britain, the lad was being cocky and didn't bother to show him what he would be jumping. So the horse went "nuh uh!". He has since gone on to win 3 hurdles races last season and always placed in the others. The video that the screen shot came from is funny

You do need the sound on to appreciate the full amusement of it

TikTok - Make Your Day

Well the lad cleared it nicely!

I wasn't taught to jump either. I rode a Shetland that belonged to a lady in the village and just used to follow the adults. If they jumped logs, we jumped logs. We then moved to Germany where it was all about the dressage. If they stuck a jump up the horses went at warp speed and I just hung on. In fact hanging on hasn't done me badly over the years!

 

[PSD]

Soft landing at no speed at all that was the horses first time seeing a jump in Britain, the lad was being cocky and didn't bother to show him what he would be jumping. So the horse went "nuh uh!". He has since gone on to win 3 hurdles races last season and always placed in the others. The video that the screen shot came from is funny

You do need the sound on to appreciate the full amusement of it

TikTok - Make Your Day

Brilliant

 

[DabDab]

This photo may come out huge but I'm pretty sure its what the OP means. I had been schooling in the arena and just popped her over a jump at the end which was out for the friend I was schooling with. Is off a phone video so not the best

And actually I was more bothered about her left hind than my position. This was the 'there is nothing wrong with that horse she's just being fat and lazy' stage with the vets. There was indeed a fair amount wrong and I'm pretty sure it was later that year it all unravelled. I doubt one jump made any difference whatsoever but I dislike this photo for a lot, lot more than the fact I need to get my backside out behind me (plus its tiny!)



View attachment 115847

I was thinking it was more this kind of thing that the OP was referring to

Which is quite common...whether it is what is being taught, or lack of strength to keep lower leg steady, I don't know. Maybe a bit of both and teaching this basic mechanism turns into quite a good jumping position as the child naturally gains strength
I do think stirrups are often too long in this scenario though...and a casual, completely non-scientific observation is that it's the same riders who do this also don't do much in the way of 2-point around a xc course. I've often wondered if the two things are actually taught together, or whether it is just a lack of strength/too-long stirrups phenomenon

 

[Reacher]

A couple of years ago I used to have lessons with a RI who had lived in USA and said in UK people jump with too long stirrups, making them insecure and hanging on to the mouth. She shortened my stirrups to the length in the photo below -about 5 holes shorter than my previous jumping length! The photo below is from a lesson with that RI.

I am trying to unlearn bad habits from childhood RS and not being taught to fold, and have a tendency to stand in the stirrups so I absorb the thrust in my legs at take off. From my experiences over many instructors over many years I’ve not found that position/ folding over the jump is focused on. I found the George morris (sorry!) series in practical horseman enlightening.

I am currently having lessons with a BS instructor who prefers you to sit up in a dressagey position over the jump (not standing in stirrups!) , admittedly we are talking small jumps, which is I think what the OP is describing, in order to be sat up quickly after the jump. I am quietly ignoring this, as without practicing folding I’m never going to learn to fold and unlearn old habits! (Lessons are more focused on lines, rhythm, keeping the horse round and not letting him tank off with me!).

I’m aware in photo my bum is too far out of saddle and I’m too far forward, hands too high, but just shortening the stirrups made an improvement.
Since this photo was taken I read a discussion on here about pushing bum back (and feet forward? ) and that is what I try to do now. I aspire to fold like @IrishMilo !


ETA sorry photo is a bit dark - was end of a hot summer evening

 

[ester]

I mostly remain a bit baffled as to how people change/improve their jumping positions as it's all over too quickly to change anything once you're up there . As I kid I grew up at a RS that didn't really do much jumping, or much instruction at all. I tend towards not folding (in part having had a stopper) and my release isn't great (tends to be hands down on crest rather than much actual give).

 

[HeresHoping]

My issue, is not with the folding, but with the lack of giving with the hand!
It drives me insane to see ponies/horses socked in the mouth as the poor things try and jump. I feel that people are not taught the importance of giving with the hand. Kids just seem to keep their hands on the withers and never learn to give forward, they don't have to fold whilst doing this, but they shouldn't interfere with the mouth.

I was just about to write this. I am horrified by the number of pictures I see on FacePlant with riders' hands tucked into their crotches. I was watching some top jumping at Bramham last weekend and wanted to smack a few riders because poles were rolling and it was definitely because the horse was unable to reach. In fact I was quite glad when a couple of them said 'enough, thank you'. It was nicer watching some of the Pony Club jumping. Some... not all.

 

[dominobrown]

I am a riding instructor, and have ridden in various types of style, I.e point to point, shoe jump, event etc etc
To be honest the hardest riders to 'fix' are the one's that lean back and stand over jumps. You daren't let them jump big as they are out of balance but its easy to get away with over small jumps, then if the pony puts in a 'pop' they get catapulted out of the saddle. I like to lots of jumping position in walk, trot and canter and small grids tend to help.
Also its imperative that they understand that hands must go forward, no matter what the jumping position is, whether its to the ears (crest release) or to the bit (automatic release), or development of.
With the child on the white pony I would say put your heels down to show the jump the soles of your shoes, push your hips back and hand toward the ears/ bit.
Over folders, if they are told to keep their head up and heels down generally are easier to 'fix'.

Having said all that I don't think its worth getting to hung up on it also long as your are in your own balance and are not interfering with the horse. There has been some weird and wonderful riders who have been very successful and achieved those two main points. The main idea is to 1) get off horses back as others you will be thrown back then forward and 2) allow the horse to use its neck and head efficiently to balance its self, if you think how cat uses its tail to balance, a horse uses its neck.

Americans are obsessed with jumping position, or seem to be and are often heavily critical of European riders. However not necessarily better. As the above comment, its a lot to think about in a short time so essentially its 'feel' which will make you the most effective rider. I personally find the Americans get to far forward on the approach, often I cannot fathom how a horse does a little spook/ hesitation before a fence in a eq class and the rider just plops off.

My jumping position varies, though I rarely fall off, even riding some dodgy maidens in point to points. At the moment I have 3 horses, one older experienced one who is Irish and does an economical jump, its easy to get a pretty position on him, second horse is my homebred who I have found especially with other people jumping her cannot cope with any head restriction over a fence, I am finding that releasing easy and over releasing makes her jump happier and confidently, which is weird as horse one is quite offended by being dropped right in front of jump and actually appreciates a little contact into a fence. Horse 3 is a little ex racer(flat) who would of been a useless hurdler as he jump like a warmblood, especially behind. To help him balance I have to be really conscious of staying off his shoulders otherwise he struggles with balance, especially as he can jump himself on to his shoulders as it is. When he gets stronger and more experienced this will sort itself.

 

[SEL]

I mostly remain a bit baffled as to how people change/improve their jumping positions as it's all over too quickly to change anything once you're up there . As I kid I grew up at a RS that didn't really do much jumping, or much instruction at all. I tend towards not folding (in part having had a stopper) and my release isn't great (tends to be hands down on crest rather than much actual give).

I had a whole schoolmaster jumping lesson with the instructor trying to change my position. All that happened was I stopped seeing a stride and had to work very hard not to sock the poor boy in the gob. I cannot multitask and focus on my position and actually jumping it seems

 

[SibeliusMB]

Americans are obsessed with jumping position, or seem to be and are often heavily critical of European riders. However not necessarily better. As the above comment, its a lot to think about in a short time so essentially its 'feel' which will make you the most effective rider. I personally find the Americans get to far forward on the approach, often I cannot fathom how a horse does a little spook/ hesitation before a fence in a eq class and the rider just plops off.

As I said in my previous post, neither extreme (the so-called "European" standing over the fence/behind the motion/pulling on the horse's mouth or the "American" jumping ahead/throwing the horse away) is correct and both have their potentially dangerous side effects. But as I also said, between the two evils, the jumping ahead is usually less punishing to the horse itself. Neither extreme is unique to the geographic location either. Plenty of folks in North America riding defensively in the back seat, and plenty of folks in Europe being way too quick with their upper body and throwing themselves over the jump.

Yes, North Americans (because Canada has the same system) are pretty obsessed with position, and that often comes from equitation-obsessed teenagers and lower-level trainers who perhaps focus too much on that and not enough on track/pace/etc (ask me how I know). But while those taking that a little too far can end up eating dirt before the jump, I'd say on the whole, the system generally produces riders that are soft and balanced before/over/after the jump.

FWIW as an American, I've found Europeans to be just as critical as us as you feel we are of you. At the end of the day, we agree on the following: staying in balance, off the horse's back, and out of their mouths over/after the jump.

 

[vam]

I grew up learning to jump with short stirrups to the point i really struggled to let them down in flat work! That said i have to really work at my jump position, i have can have a tendency to go up and pivot on my knee. I think what is overlooked is how the horse goes. I never had to many issues with my position until i have my current mare who was more behind the leg and didnt take me into a fence, me have to work to get her there often put me in front of the movement, there was a reason for the way she went and once that was sorted, getting my bum back and leg anchored was much, much easier.
I think a lot of riders do not have the horse going forward enough, often lacking in the canter so they end up with awkward jumps, too deep, top far off and their jump positions suffer as they cant get to the jump in balance the first place. The obsession with seeing a stride and is seems like people just cant feel the canter so end up hooking and pushing and i'm saying that as someone who is guilty of that at times! i cant really see a stride but i can feel my canter and that is more important and gets me to the fence much better. That said i haven't jumped a fence in nearly 2 years so i will have to start from scratch with it all!
These where take a year a part once i had her much more off my leg and going forward. My ginger was always more more forwards so easier to have a nice fold. Obviously i still got jumps where i pivoted on my knee a bit or got in front of the movement but i didn't buy those pics!

 

[dominobrown]

As I said in my previous post, neither extreme (the so-called "European" standing over the fence/behind the motion/pulling on the horse's mouth or the "American" jumping ahead/throwing the horse away) is correct and both have their potentially dangerous side effects. But as I also said, between the two evils, the jumping ahead is usually less punishing to the horse itself. Neither extreme is unique to the geographic location either. Plenty of folks in North America riding defensively in the back seat, and plenty of folks in Europe being way too quick with their upper body and throwing themselves over the jump.

Yes, North Americans (because Canada has the same system) are pretty obsessed with position, and that often comes from equitation-obsessed teenagers and lower-level trainers who perhaps focus too much on that and not enough on track/pace/etc (ask me how I know). But while those taking that a little too far can end up eating dirt before the jump, I'd say on the whole, the system generally produces riders that are soft and balanced before/over/after the jump.

FWIW as an American, I've found Europeans to be just as critical as us as you feel we are of you. At the end of the day, we agree on the following: staying in balance, off the horse's back, and out of their mouths over/after the jump.

Oh yes, sorry, its easy to generalise that 'Americans' do this and that and "Europeans" do this and that. I think we all desire to have a jumping position like Beezie Madden (who is one the best jumping riders in the world IMO).
I also get a lot of my kids to follow Zoey Luna on instagram if they have it as she does slow mo jumping videos are her jumping position is very good, maybe had her heels down a bit too much and I am not sure of her flat riding.

I think there is a lot of merit in American systems and I even started a little Eq show series at the riding school... in the UK with emphasis on clear rounds and speed too early IMO while I think getting young kids to concentrate on Eq at first then move on to speed etc later would be better.
I think some of my criticism of the "American" system are those extremely rich kids on overproduced horses, obsessed with spending huge amounts of money to ride 'perfect' rounds but have little involvement in horse training and horsemanship so develop no feel. However speaking to Americans and Canadians (one Canadian eq rider rode for me during covid) they also hate that part of the showing world over there.

I think, (and would appreciate your opinions and input), classes based on style and eq would be really beneficial over here in Europe, similar to the American shows. ( Recently on Facebook there was thread about poles and cross rail classes in the US which we don't really get over here, but perfect for nervous riders and horses to get them in the ring). Basically a hybrid of both styles and taking a little of both showing cultures would make a pretty perfect system if anyone could pull it off?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I am so not a jumping person , but did anyone else go to the gymnastic jumping sessions put on by the late Pat Burgess? She was completely inspiational. I used to traipse down to Solihull riding club in the early 90s two or three times a year with my dressage horse. A three hour group clinic with 8 riders would fly by. Lots of grid work. Absolutely fantastic.

 

[sbloom]

I mostly remain a bit baffled as to how people change/improve their jumping positions as it's all over too quickly to change anything once you're up there . As I kid I grew up at a RS that didn't really do much jumping, or much instruction at all. I tend towards not folding (in part having had a stopper) and my release isn't great (tends to be hands down on crest rather than much actual give).

You can't easily do it as a conscious thing which is why in the olden days we learned without stirrups, reins or both and jumped with eyes closed, over long grids etc. The body has to learn the feel of the balance and the timing, it's not something that's easy to fix via thought processes.

I will note that, of course, the saddle affects things a lot. Too deep a seat will make riders pop up, and I think that's a common cause of more amateur riders becoming too vertical as they ride in deeper seated GP saddles, though even some jump saddles have bizarrely deep seats. The shape of the seat, the thickness of the flaps and of course block placement all have an effect, as to thickness of stirrup leathers and the design of the iron, as well as stirrup length.

 

[marmalade76]

You can't easily do it as a conscious thing which is why in the olden days we learned without stirrups, reins or both and jumped with eyes closed, over long grids etc. The body has to learn the feel of the balance and the timing, it's not something that's easy to fix via thought processes.

I will note that, of course, the saddle affects things a lot. Too deep a seat will make riders pop up, and I think that's a common cause of more amateur riders becoming too vertical as they ride in deeper seated GP saddles, though even some jump saddles have bizarrely deep seats. The shape of the seat, the thickness of the flaps and of course block placement all have an effect, as to thickness of stirrup leathers and the design of the iron, as well as stirrup length.

I was thinking about suggesting trying jumping in something like a racing saddle to the person above asking how you improve your jumping position because you'd have to otherwise you'd fall half the time! To add to the "when we were kids", we rode in flat, slick saddles, often old show saddles that you sat on, not in. I look back and wonder how I didn't fall off MORE often than I did!

 

[sbloom]

I was thinking about suggesting trying jumping in something like a racing saddle to the person above asking how you improve your jumping position because you'd have to otherwise you'd fall half the time! To add to the "when we were kids", we rode in flat, slick saddles, often old show saddles that you sat on, not in. I look back and wonder how I didn't fall off MORE often than I did!

Better that it's a saddle that suits horse and rider but I do think that insurance requirements at riding schools and pony club stopping everything I mentioned are a real problem.

 

[ester]

i don’t think I’ve actually jumped in a jump saddle. I was making a real effort with my position/lessons with someone new when f went lame and wasn’t able to pick that up again.

Managing some group lessons atm, all pretty small compared to some of you and I mostly get good responses (other than why my leg stays forward over 2’9 but not over 2’) but it just sort of happens and if it feels ok I presume I wasn’t terrible.

 

[Scoti1420]

These where take a year a part once i had her much more off my leg and going forward. My ginger was always more more forwards so easier to have a nice fold. Obviously i still got jumps where i pivoted on my knee a bit or got in front of the movement but i didn't buy those pics!

The difference is remarkable, what a fantastic improvement!

 

[AmyMay]

I am so not a jumping person , but did anyone else go to the gymnastic jumping sessions put on by the late Pat Burgess? She was completely inspiational. I used to traipse down to Solihull riding club in the early 90s two or three times a year with my dressage horse. A three hour group clinic with 8 riders would fly by. Lots of grid work. Absolutely fantastic.

View attachment 115887

Yes, I did several with her over the years.

 

[vam]

The difference is remarkable, what a fantastic improvement!

Thank you. that was down to a lot of time in 2 point in all gaits and a much better, forwards active canter. I certainly took it for granted with my ginger one!

 

[Mudfukkle]

I *think* when I jump my natural reaction is to put my bum back so my heels and leg stay stable. I try to not actively think about my arms or hands or I end up over cooking it and I look like a chicken I also think it's easy to be really critical of yourself from a still shot and pick it to shreds when it really is just a snapshot. The overall picture is much more useful.

https://imgur.com/BvqopXJ

Very good, but in my opinion, you do need to give a bit more with your hand, it's very fixed on the withers, not allowing the horse it's freedom through the neck. Just push your hands further forward as the horse takes off.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I am so not a jumping person , but did anyone else go to the gymnastic jumping sessions put on by the late Pat Burgess? She was completely inspiational. I used to traipse down to Solihull riding club in the early 90s two or three times a year with my dressage horse. A three hour group clinic with 8 riders would fly by. Lots of grid work. Absolutely fantastic.

View attachment 115887

I do like the release in that photo. Not soo much tension or even pull at the bit that you see sometimes. So many riders don't release. The horse needs to have full use of their head and neck, IMO. You don't hold them into some shape over the jump.

 

[ester]

What I did find when jumping the 'proper' horse warmblood I was sharing last year is that he automatically improved my hands as he asked for them and it was a very different feeling compared to the welshie feeling. With him I was very much in a drop hands to just ahead of wither habit, before we had to stop doing some more jump training we'd actually turned my hands over so I was holding the reins the 'wrong' way and it was interesting how much difference that made.

 

[Sealine]

When I look at all these photos I remember what my old instructor used to say which was 'if I took your horse away from under you now and you were standing on the ground would you fall over?'. If you over bend you'd fall flat on your face which is probably why she was always saying it as my lower leg has a tendency to move back and as someone said above I end up pivoting on my knee. I learnt my lesson after falling off at a drop fence on the side of a hill when my saint of a horse pecked slightly on landing. I ended up on the ground with concussion on landing after this photo was taken.

 

[TheMule]

I am so not a jumping person , but did anyone else go to the gymnastic jumping sessions put on by the late Pat Burgess? She was completely inspiational. I used to traipse down to Solihull riding club in the early 90s two or three times a year with my dressage horse. A three hour group clinic with 8 riders would fly by. Lots of grid work. Absolutely fantastic.

View attachment 115887

Total legend- Pat is the reason my horses always have a loopy rein over a fence. It was her absolute bug bear when a rider didn’t give them freedom to jump

 

[Tiddlypom]

Total legend- Pat is the reason my horses always have a loopy rein over a fence. It was her absolute bug bear when a rider didn’t give them freedom to jump

Absolutely.

And another major bugbear of hers was riders *ahem like me* who had a terrible habit of going for a long one.

Sit up and wait for the fence to come to you.

 

[IrishMilo]

Since this photo was taken I read a discussion on here about pushing bum back (and feet forward? ) and that is what I try to do now. I aspire to fold like @IrishMilo

Thank you @Reacher! That's very flattering. Especially given how much I continuously CC myself!

 

[anguscat]

A couple of years ago I used to have lessons with a RI who had lived in USA and said in UK people jump with too long stirrups, making them insecure and hanging on to the mouth. She shortened my stirrups to the length in the photo below -about 5 holes shorter than my previous jumping length! The photo below is from a lesson with that RI.

I am trying to unlearn bad habits from childhood RS and not being taught to fold, and have a tendency to stand in the stirrups so I absorb the thrust in my legs at take off. From my experiences over many instructors over many years I’ve not found that position/ folding over the jump is focused on. I found the George morris (sorry!) series in practical horseman enlightening.

I am currently having lessons with a BS instructor who prefers you to sit up in a dressagey position over the jump (not standing in stirrups!) , admittedly we are talking small jumps, which is I think what the OP is describing, in order to be sat up quickly after the jump. I am quietly ignoring this, as without practicing folding I’m never going to learn to fold and unlearn old habits! (Lessons are more focused on lines, rhythm, keeping the horse round and not letting him tank off with me!).

I’m aware in photo my bum is too far out of saddle and I’m too far forward, hands too high, but just shortening the stirrups made an improvement.
Since this photo was taken I read a discussion on here about pushing bum back (and feet forward? ) and that is what I try to do now. I aspire to fold like @IrishMilo !

View attachment 115880
ETA sorry photo is a bit dark - was end of a hot summer evening

I think best if you try and keep your feet under your hips. Also think you can’t go far wrong reading George Morris.

 

[spacefaer]

@Sealine I was told this too - imagine the horse disappers from underneath you, would you land on your feet... I'd like to think I would here

@TheMule have I given enough over the fence here

 

[spacefaer]

The other thing I was taught from an early age - if there was a risk you might catch the horse's mouth .... Slip the reins .... You don't seem to see that much at the moment either