Fosse Park Leicester horses

[Amaranta]

Moomin, if you are correct, then the recent mailshot sent out by WHW describing the departure of meat equines from our ports UNCHECKED,for health, distance, microchips is probably nonsense?

Quite and their call for meat horses to be given Ag status is a complete waste of time, according to the oracle that is Moomin

 

[Patterdale]

Horses bred for meat do not have AGRICULTURAL status, you know damn well that is what I mean, you really are a pompous ****

I would strongly oppose any move to class horses as livestock; it would be a disaster.

Amaranta, I don't mean to offend, but your arguments may have more weight if you didn't resort to personal insults and name calling

 

[Amaranta]

I would strongly oppose any move to class horses as livestock; it would be a disaster.

Amaranta, I don't mean to offend, but your arguments may have more weight if you didn't resort to personal insults and name calling

I agree and it is not something I would normally resort to, but I find someone putting down the efforts of the people who did effect some change this week, however small, infuriating, especially so in such a condescending manner.

It is interesting you think it would be a disaster, why so?

 

[Moomin1]

I agree and it is not something I would normally resort to, but I find someone putting down the efforts of the people who did effect some change this week, however small, infuriating, especially so in such a condescending manner.

It is interesting you think it would be a disaster, why so?

You haven't effected any change. You just like to think you have.

 

[Patterdale]

It is interesting you think it would be a disaster, why so?

I live on a farm - we keep sheep and cattle. So I am perhaps more aware than the average horse owner of the red tape and restrictions involved with keeping livestock.

An important thing to remember first is that you could never give livestock status to some horses and not others. It would be impossible to police and wide open to abuse of the system; the non law abiding producers would simply claim that their horses were not destined for meat, then when they eventually DID sell them for meat they would just use an excuse such as not being able to afford them any more.
To stop them doing this, you would have to have a blanket ban on all 'pet' owners from sending their horse to an abbatoir, which as I'm sure you can appreciate would have serious welfare implications for those with old or infirm horses who could not afford to have them PTS at home.

So, you would either have to have ALL horses classed as livestock, or none.

Anyway, my objections to horses being kept as livestock?
Firstly, every place that kept horses would need a holding number, along with the regulations, restrictions and red tape that this would bring.

Movement restrictions would be a very big one.
There would be copious paperwork to fill out and file every time your horse leaves the holding; be that for a hack, competition, or to move to a different home. Impossible to police, and a nightmare to implicate and live with (not to mention time consuming and costly).

In the event of another foot and mouth type epidemic, movement restrictions on livestock would presumably extend to horses if they were classed as livestock.

All horses would need some kind of external identification. Compulsory ear tags, anyone?? Or at the very least, compulsory freeze marking? Which would need to be changed anytime a horse changes hands.

The hoops we have to jump through as livestock producers are unreal. I could go on and on.
And the thought of doing it all for the horses too is awful!

Farmers willing to let land to DIYs would be almost non existent, as it would affect their SFP. All year turnout would become a thing of the past as churned fields are a big no no on the agricultural land of anyone claiming subsidies (ie most proper farmers).

This is another point to remember - if horses are livestock then all land used for equestrian purposes would now be agricultural land. This would have huge implications for rates, tax, planning laws, and a plethora of other things which I won't get into here.

I could honestly go on and on.

Just...no!!!!

 

[Amaranta]

You haven't effected any change. You just like to think you have.

You really do take the biscuit, with attitudes like that it is no wonder that the welfare of equines is at an all time low in this country.

 

[Amaranta]

I live on a farm - we keep sheep and cattle. So I am perhaps more aware than the average horse owner of the red tape and restrictions involved with keeping livestock.

An important thing to remember first is that you could never give livestock status to some horses and not others. It would be impossible to police and wide open to abuse of the system; the non law abiding producers would simply claim that their horses were not destined for meat, then when they eventually DID sell them for meat they would just use an excuse such as not being able to afford them any more.
To stop them doing this, you would have to have a blanket ban on all 'pet' owners from sending their horse to an abbatoir, which as I'm sure you can appreciate would have serious welfare implications for those with old or infirm horses who could not afford to have them PTS at home.

So, you would either have to have ALL horses classed as livestock, or none.

Anyway, my objections to horses being kept as livestock?
Firstly, every place that kept horses would need a holding number, along with the regulations, restrictions and red tape that this would bring.

Movement restrictions would be a very big one.
There would be copious paperwork to fill out and file every time your horse leaves the holding; be that for a hack, competition, or to move to a different home. Impossible to police, and a nightmare to implicate and live with (not to mention time consuming and costly).

In the event of another foot and mouth type epidemic, movement restrictions on livestock would presumably extend to horses if they were classed as livestock.

All horses would need some kind of external identification. Compulsory ear tags, anyone?? Or at the very least, compulsory freeze marking? Which would need to be changed anytime a horse changes hands.

The hoops we have to jump through as livestock producers are unreal. I could go on and on.
And the thought of doing it all for the horses too is awful!

Farmers willing to let land to DIYs would be almost non existent, as it would affect their SFP. All year turnout would become a thing of the past as churned fields are a big no no on the agricultural land of anyone claiming subsidies (ie most proper farmers).

This is another point to remember - if horses are livestock then all land used for equestrian purposes would now be agricultural land. This would have huge implications for rates, tax, planning laws, and a plethora of other things which I won't get into here.

I could honestly go on and on.

Just...no!!!!

Thank you, it is always interesting to see the other side of the coin.

 

[Moomin1]

You really do take the biscuit, with attitudes like that it is no wonder that the welfare of equines is at an all time low in this country.

What, because I disagree with you? And because I happen to know that the 'petition' actually did nothing to influence the way these horses were dealt with, but of course media and joe public on a crusade believe it did?

 

[Ibblebibble]

You haven't effected any change. You just like to think you have.

oh Brian, you're really letting yourself down, you know how mother feels about you resorting to snide remarks to point score, it's not big and it's not clever .
I'm sure the in-foal mares and youngsters are feeling the change in their surroundings and care today, thats change enough for some

the petition is a long term thing, of course it hasn't had any effect yet, the huge public outcry over the state of the horses is what secured some of them a better environment.

 

[Amaranta]

What, because I disagree with you? And because I happen to know that the 'petition' actually did nothing to influence the way these horses were dealt with, but of course media and joe public on a crusade believe it did?

Oh dear, of course the petition did not affect these horses - as I said do keep up. You obviously like to comment despite having no idea what the actual subject is.

 

[Patterdale]

oh Brian, you're really letting yourself down, you know how mother feels about you resorting to snide remarks to point score, it's not big and it's not clever.

:eek3:
Well, people in glass houses....!

Is there really any need for this? Moomin may not agree that a Facebook group singlehandedly 'saved' these horses, but is that any reason for the frequent and really quite nasty personal comments?

 

[MillyMoomie]

I suggest you all have a gander at the CURRENT transport legislation, welfare leg and in fact every legislation and stop arguing!! there are separate sections relating to equines in uk transport regs, the animal welfare act is very effective, there are SEPARATE Defra codes of practice relating to Equines (which are massively comprehensive to include everything from stable size to tethering)which should be adhered to and are used daily in court as evidence of neglect.
LUCKILY in the UK equines are not given argricultrial status, if they did this would be a disaster as therefore the current ILLEGAL activity of shipping horses live from our shores for slaughter would never have become so. The fact that this law is abused is to do with lack of enforcement by Defra and dealers taking advantage of the allowance of live transportation of sport horses throughout UK, Ireland and France.
Now whichever poster is shouting about horses being given this agricultural status is absurd. It would mean no animal welfare act, and is what WHW is currently campaigning to change in Europe. Horses transported for meat in Europe are categorised in the same way as cattle etc and this is a welfare disaster.

 

[Patterdale]

LUCKILY in the UK equines are not given argricultrial status, if they did this would be a disaster as therefore the current ILLEGAL activity of shipping horses live from our shores for slaughter would never have become so. The fact that this law is abused is to do with lack of enforcement by Defra and dealers taking advantage of the allowance of live transportation of sport horses throughout UK, Ireland and France.
Now whichever poster is shouting about horses being given this agricultural status is absurd. It would mean no animal welfare act, and is what WHW is currently campaigning to change in Europe. Horses transported for meat in Europe are categorised in the same way as cattle etc and this is a welfare disaster.

Totally agree.

Giving horses agricultural status would be one of the single biggest setbacks for equine welfare ever seen.

We already have all the correct welfare laws. They just need to be correctly enforced.

 

[Summer pudding]

What, because I disagree with you? And because I happen to know that the 'petition' actually did nothing to influence the way these horses were dealt with, but of course media and joe public on a crusade believe it did?

Please can you tell us all how you know that the petition did nothing, or the media or joe public for that matter...I am one of the saddos who think the Fb petition raised awareness on a national scale....and everything followed from there. But if `i am wrong please, please enlighten with chapter and verse from the 'inside'?

 

[Ibblebibble]

:eek3:
Well, people in glass houses....!

Is there really any need for this? Moomin may not agree that a Facebook group singlehandedly 'saved' these horses, but is that any reason for the frequent and really quite nasty personal comments?

moomin never denied they were a balding 50 yr old called Brian who still lived with their mother and lived life through the internet! i have also never denied that i am a sarcastic bitch who will sometimes poke people for a reaction, i don't feel i have let myself down as i don't try and pretend i am something i am not ( and my mother knows exactly what i'm like too)

 

[skyrock]

but the RSPCA continually ask for money so they can stop cruelty before it happens they call it their big animal rescue and its on telly all the time so they are just a set of liars and they really do not care

 

[Moomin1]

but the RSPCA continually ask for money so they can stop cruelty before it happens they call it their big animal rescue and its on telly all the time so they are just a set of liars and they really do not care

Do you HONESTLY think that they can stop all cruelty before it happens?!! Get real.

 

[Summer pudding]

Do you HONESTLY think that they can stop all cruelty before it happens?!! Get real.

Hear, hear....they have to work within the EXISTING law...to respond AFTER cruelty is reported. The problem is compounded sadly because there is an excess of equines in need of their help, and nowhere to put them if they are impounded. Their field officers do hard, not particularly well paid work, and to say they don't care is an insult...and inaccurate.

 

[Ladyinred]

An update, and not a good one, from Mark the farrier who found the horse in the water:





Hi everyone it's Mark.
Fosse park update from today 2nd of March. I was hoping by now at just over 2 weeks into this that I could report that all is rosie & moving well. To put it simply it's not! Today, we have even more horses on site, there is no food & they are still exposed to appalling fencing & all the rest of the issues which sparked this campaign. We have been quiet on the update front. Giving time to RSPCA chief inspector James Lucas to oversee & get the changes implemented which he requested. Also to allow him & his staff to "monitor" the situation. I can confirm they are failing in their duty of care. How can I trust the care of these animals to a body which pay lip service to their duty? How can I trust that the foals which have already been moved to an unknown location are safe & being cared for? When the Fosse park situation is allowed to deteriorate. If anyone is in any doubt about coming with us to London to shout about this please think carefully. I am going to post an album of pictures taken today on site so no one is in any doubt. This is a matter way bigger than the RSPCA. Who demonstrate time & again they do not have the ability to cope with equine welfare & thus are not fit for purpose. Please on the back of this statement may I beg everyone makes sure they have signed the petition & go further!!! Send messages to your local MP's, tell them your stories, tell them we won't stand for this any longer! & tell them why WE ARE COMING TO LONDON !!! Thank you from me, the team & Hope

 

[LaMooch]

So situation that has ended up the way it did is being monitored again. Bloody RSPCA wake up and smell the coffee

 

[Ladyinred]

Over 40 horses on the site now! Goodness knows how or when they were put there. Its all madness, the amount of wire and rubbish is terrifying and no one can do a thing, not legally.

 

[LaMooch]

Over 40 horses on the site now! Goodness knows how or when they were put there. Its all madness, the amount of wire and rubbish is terrifying and no one can do a thing, not legally.

I thought the RSPCA was talking with owner about moving the horses? Someone obviously mis-herd the moving bit. Unless he been paid for his side of the story and used money to buy more

 

[Ladyinred]

I thought the RSPCA was talking with owner about moving the horses? Someone obviously mis-herd the moving bit. Unless he been paid for his side of the story and used money to buy more

No, you are right, some were moved (amongst them all the foals) but a lot more have appeared.

 

[LaMooch]

No, you are right, some were moved (amongst them all the foals) but a lot more have appeared.

bet he brought more and put them there to cause a stir

 

[wipeout]

Just my opinion but I think it's desperately sad that we live in a country where even the government website points people in the direction of a charity if they need info or action relating to animal welfare. Remember the government give the RSPCA no funding.
Surely this would be like relying on the NSPCC (for example) to deal with all child cruelty.
When laws have been broken I really don't understand why the police can't just deal with it.
Even worse people seem to spend more time bad mouthing a charity than the dreadful owner who has left them horses like this in the first place.
I expect people will say that the RSPCA "claim" to be the experts but we wouldn't leave it to Oxfam to stop the world from starving would we.
There has to be some way of dealing with these people who keep large groups of animals in this kind of state but I don't believe it should be left to a charity.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Just my opinion but I think it's desperately sad that we live in a country where even the government website points people in the direction of a charity if they need info or action relating to animal welfare. Remember the government give the RSPCA no funding.
Surely this would be like relying on the NSPCC (for example) to deal with all child cruelty.
When laws have been broken I really don't understand why the police can't just deal with it.
Even worse people seem to spend more time bad mouthing a charity than the dreadful owner who has left them horses like this in the first place.
I expect people will say that the RSPCA "claim" to be the experts but we wouldn't leave it to Oxfam to stop the world from starving would we.
There has to be some way of dealing with these people who keep large groups of animals in this kind of state but I don't believe it should be left to a charity.

The RSPCA prefer to be independent http://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/faq/-/question/FundFAQ3/category/Policy/. They don't have to take orders from anyone & can do what suits them, politically.

 

[wipeout]

The RSPCA prefer to be independent http://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/faq/-/question/FundFAQ3/category/Policy/. They don't have to take orders from anyone & can do what suits them, politically.

I meant that the government really ought to provide a service themselves so that charities don't have to do all the clearing up. I agree that the RSPCA should remain independent, my understanding is that charity rules prevent government funding anyway.