Foxhounds at Crufts

avthechav

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Flicking through the channels today and in the houndy type class (can you tell than I know nothing about showing!) there was a fox hound, a deer hound and several others. Now the fox hound doesnt bear a much resemblance to the fox hounds that I see actually working (as to be expected), however was thinking that surely the hunts breed fox hounds to the correct standard, and the hunts show fairly prolifically ie Peterborough, and spend a lot of time looking at breeding lines, how come we do not see a sample of fox hounds from hunts at shows like Crufts?....I can understand why hunts themselves do not show at crufts (faff in the end of the season and few working hounds are in 'show condition') but surely if as a breed standard you are judging against the 'perfect' hound, the hunts must have this nailed? Could this be a way to raise the profile of hunts and foxhounds to the public?

*disclaimer- I know nothing about showing or foxhounds, this is just a lazy Sunday observation whilst I am putting off planning lessons for tomorrow!*
 

Maesfen

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You have to qualify for Crufts as a start and I don't believe (very willing to be corrected) that the Kennel Club accept hound breeding as being registered so all hunt hounds are ineligible. More fool them as most hound breeding goes back (and can be verified too) to the mid 1700s so more likely far longer than a lot of other breeds that are registed KC.
Wasn't a very nice specimen though, would love to know the breeding as hounds aren't meant to be sold to Joe Public at all.
 

avthechav

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...how interesting if you are right about the KC not recognising the hunt bred hounds seeing as though these are the 'real hounds!'. I wouldnt have thought there could be concerns about inpure bloodlines, as like you say the bloodlines can be traced back a very long way....i guess that would be a bit like the FEI not recognising Weatherby's passports (or somthing along those lines!!)

I also didnt know that you couldnt sell foxhounds to the general public- everyday is a school day!!
 

druid

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The Foxhounds at Crufts all belong to one breeder - Rosemary Griffiths. To my knowledge she is the only breeder of KC registered foxhounds in the UK.

The hounds are from crosses of American lines and the North Staffs and Beaufort packs. Some have hunted before showing (Daresbury)
 

Maesfen

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The Foxhounds at Crufts all belong to one breeder - Rosemary Griffiths. To my knowledge she is the only breeder of KC registered foxhounds in the UK.

The hounds are from crosses of American lines and the North Staffs and Beaufort packs. Some have hunted before showing (Daresbury)
Well, there's nothing wrong in guaranteeing you'll get to the Group judging I suppose but would seem like a very hollow victory to me. :rolleyes:

I knew the original ones were either American or Australian, they weren't great specimens either. Don't know whether it's still the same or not but it used to be the official rule that hounds couldn't be sold to Joe Public; they could be drafted to other packs but not sold for showing or as pets, at least in the British Isles which is why they were originally imported. If they are from recognised lines, then that should be the only way they've got around it.
 

druid

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Well, there's nothing wrong in guaranteeing you'll get to the Group judging I suppose but would seem like a very hollow victory to me. :rolleyes:

I knew the original ones were either American or Australian, they weren't great specimens either. Don't know whether it's still the same or not but it used to be the official rule that hounds couldn't be sold to Joe Public; they could be drafted to other packs but not sold for showing or as pets, at least in the British Isles which is why they were originally imported. If they are from recognised lines, then that should be the only way they've got around it.
She uses her own bitches from (originally) American lines and uses stud dogs from active packs. I'm not sure how that works with KC registering or how some hunt before showing.
 

EAST KENT

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Quite simply dog showing is beneath any huntsman ,and well beneath any working foxhound.The ones a Ch dog shows are`nt that good,compared to the real deals at proper Hound Shows.
Well remember our huntsman`s astonishment (and disdain) that our show dogs were on LEADS,for goodness sake! Also can remember MY astonishment ar Crufts some years ago to see a woman in a mock red coat complete with mock tan topped boots with a foxhound on a check chain .It was`nt a great speciman ,and it`s feet were not arched or deep enough.No doubt she thought she looked grand, but to me it demeaned the poor foxhound.
They are working hounds ..not cur dogs for silly dog shows.
 

doodleberry

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Quite simply dog showing is beneath any huntsman ,and well beneath any working foxhound.The ones a Ch dog shows are`nt that good,compared to the real deals at proper Hound Shows.
Well remember our huntsman`s astonishment (and disdain) that our show dogs were on LEADS,for goodness sake! Also can remember MY astonishment ar Crufts some years ago to see a woman in a mock red coat complete with mock tan topped boots with a foxhound on a check chain .It was`nt a great speciman ,and it`s feet were not arched or deep enough.No doubt she thought she looked grand, but to me it demeaned the poor foxhound.
They are working hounds ..not cur dogs for silly dog shows.
but what about peterborough etc ?? they certainly show on leads there but i suppose they are around like minded people!! i do know a terrierman who used to show at crufts and do very well with his terriers
 

Maesfen

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but what about peterborough etc ?? they certainly show on leads there but i suppose they are around like minded people!! i do know a terrierman who used to show at crufts and do very well with his terriers
Hounds are shown quite differently from those at normal dog shows. Yes, they might be on a lead or couples, but the whip would be holding them, the huntsman would be in front engaging them so they are looking and standing alertly; this would not be allowed at Crufts. Other than the dedicated hound shows such as Peterborough, Honiton, Harrogate, Ardingley, Builth, Rydal and so on) normal dog shows don't allow for hounds to be shown loose which is when you'll see the more natural flowing athletic action of the hounds than when they're on leads and are the highlights of the classes.
 

avthechav

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They are working hounds ..not cur dogs for silly dog shows.
...isnt this the case for any breed though:confused:...just looking at the labs and spaniels- they dont look or act like the working dogs that you see beating...and the greyhound certainly didnt look like the racing dogs.

I get the point about the showing technique being different with the loose part of the show, and I think it would be quite amusing if they did attempt this at Crufts....Im thinking that the owners might want to hang on to some of those fluffy toy dogs :D
 

doodleberry

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Hounds are shown quite differently from those at normal dog shows. Yes, they might be on a lead or couples, but the whip would be holding them, the huntsman would be in front engaging them so they are looking and standing alertly; this would not be allowed at Crufts. Other than the dedicated hound shows such as Peterborough, Honiton, Harrogate, Ardingley, Builth, Rydal and so on) normal dog shows don't allow for hounds to be shown loose which is when you'll see the more natural flowing athletic action of the hounds than when they're on leads and are the highlights of the classes.
well crufts is quite silly then isnt it how can you see how good a hound or dog is without letting them be ? it would be like a horse show where everyone stood still !
 
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Hello first off,
I believe ignorance is of people is due to lack of understanding in a subject, so please allow me to shed some light on the subject of show type foxhounds.
The Foxhound standard 2009 for the current “show type “(as you put it), happens to be taken from the MHFA standard. So the hound you saw on TV is judged to the same standard as the Peterborough judging of the hounds,
As in hunts, breeders have their own type, what lines they like to breed from, so you will see a difference of type-colour in the ring as you would do at any hunt hound show.
Their ability to work is always put first, with many true breeders using active hunt foxhounds to sire their litters. This helps the gene pool and to ensure that the hounds they are breeding are true to type as possible, all True “show” foxhounds are able to complete a days work. With many in the show ring doing so.

With many hunts in the UK being of want is classed as modern type, the old English type is different colour and slight heaver in bone to the modern foxhound, often very eye catching to those who haven’t seen it before.
The kennel Club Do allow Hunt Hounds to show at their events,- with many hounds in past years being entered. So the information posted above is not true, however just because a Foxhound has a hunt kennel name doesn’t ensure that that hound matches the standard any closer to the “show “foxhound next to it in the ring.
Many a huntsman will chose only their best hounds to go to MFHA Shows, as a hounds ability to hunt and look true comes into question then,
However out in the field many huntsman and hunt staff often prefer a hound that may have a curly stern or slightly narrower head, as they really only want something that can hunt well and fast.

True Many Hunts will not sell to the public however, they can lose or draft hounds out to other places which then get lost and end up being re-homed to families etc these hounds are given the chance to enjoy life in a different way, showing their owners that Foxhounds are beautiful, intelligent friendly brave and social(list goes on).

I am Foxhound Welfare UK’s National coordinator in rescue and re-homing, we aim to help in the education of the public, re-train, treat, rescue and re-home foxhounds that come to us in need,
Many of our foxhounds aren’t from MFHA hunts (not tattooed) or breeders, but are still very much foxhounds.

If you would like to learn more than please contact me.
 

avthechav

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Hello first off,
I believe ignorance is of people is due to lack of understanding in a subject, so please allow me to shed some light on the subject of show type foxhounds.
Please forgive my 'ignorance', I did say in my OP that I know nothing I was just idley observing!!:D

Thats interesting re the 2009 standard, and it would make sense as the hunts are the expert breeders along with the show producers. And I get what you are saying about the selective breeding for different terrains and also personal preferances having an effect. I guess it is a little like some racing TBs who have awful confo against the TB standard and yet are inexplicably awesome.

I did not know anything about your organisation previously so thanks for enlightening me :)
 

Alec Swan

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:eek::eek::eek::eek: Watch out for Rosie and Fiagai, the abbreviation police with that one Alec :rolleyes:
A couple of years ago, and whilst reading a totally different discussion, I read that someone pointed out, to another, that the mark of a person loosing an argument, was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes. Read, Mark, Learn, then Inwardly Digest, and you may end up apologising for yours! :)

Alec.
 
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Fiagai

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A couple of years ago, and whilst reading a totally different discussion, I read that someone pointed out, to another, that the mark of a person loosing an argument, was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes. Read, Mark, Learn, then Inwardly Digest, and you may end up apologising for yours! :)

Alec.
Alec may be making an exclamation but is not telling someone to go **** themselves.

A big difference methinks. And do remember that offending post was deleted by the Forum Moderaor - not by other forum members. Jeez someone just cant get over themselves!
 
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The Best of Breed Foxhound at Cruft's this year is Dazzleby Dandelion, and she is owned, handled and bred by me, and if the pack responsible for letting me use their stallion hound on my bitch had their choice, she would have been hunting with their pack. It was quite evident from a very young age that this hound was destined to become a star. She has already had numerous awards, and is highly regarded in knowledgeable circles. She is a beautiful, elegant and correct hound. It is rather sad that some on this forum dismiss her so callously, when knowing nothing of her breeding or background.

I have been striving for many years to promote both Foxhounds and Foxhunting both in the UK and in Europe.

Incidently, Dandelion is by the Duke of Beaufort's Milton, and she would hunt for England if you let her.
 

Serenity087

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Now would I be a Kentish lass, or a lass of Kent?
I'm so glad to see you, Dazzleby, I've been watching your hounds at crufts for years. Was going to point out yours are very much still true to the english hunting hound breeding!

I have to wonder, as the OP knows not very much, was it definitely a foxhound? Hamilton stovare can look decievingly close if you don't know what you're looking at... and some of the other breeds do as well...

Also, as I've just been looking at Dazzleby's website, I urge others to have a look... You'll spot photos of some of their hounds in hunt kennels... seems a bit bizarre if they're that poorly bred...
 

druid

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Hi Rosemary,

I'd like to point out that I'm delighted to see Foxhounds at Crufts and used to enjoy seeing the Dazzleby dogs over this side of the pond for the Easter show (I believe some even earned thier green star?)
 

combat_claire

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There has been a lot of debate recently in the shooting press regarding whether the breed standards as set out by the Kennel Club have become too exaggerated to allow the breed in question to actually complete a day on a shoot. There was huge concern that labradors and retrievers in their show strains bore little resemblance to the lean types you would see picking up or beating.

I note that the MFHA is partially responsible for setting the breed standard but I believe that at Crufts the hounds are not shown off lead. If this is correct how can the breeder be showing the free movement and good action that is so key to a hunting hound's conformation.

I whip in for a pack of mink hounds and we take our hounds to two shows every year - both affiliated to the Masters of Mink Hounds Association. In this we are expected to show our hounds standing on the flags individually, to let them off their couples and demonstrate their action before in the final element they are assessed against other entrants in the class. We have been hugely successful at showing in recent years, but we never forget that our hounds primary job is to work on the hunting field.
 

rosie fronfelen

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A couple of years ago, and whilst reading a totally different discussion, I read that someone pointed out, to another, that the mark of a person loosing an argument, was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes. Read, Mark, Learn, then Inwardly Digest, and you may end up apologising for yours! :)

Alec.
looks like you have a new fan Alec, lol-you mind out for that nasty ringleader, Rosie , and the initial fiend, Fiagai.
 

EAST KENT

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As Alec says FFSake!! Never forgotten that woman in imitation hunt servant dress, such an insult to a marvellous working breed.
Often though you do get this in dog showing, using a "rare" or imported breed for hollow victories.
 
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Hi Druid,

I always enjoy taking my hounds to Ireland, you guys always give me a warm welcome, and I love galloping them on your beaches.
Yes I have 2 Irish Champions, and Dandelion has been twice as a puppy, were she had Puppy Group 1 and 2. I brought her brother to the European Winner Show in Dublin where he was runner up for the Group. He is a very useful hound.
As you probably know, Druid, my background is foxhounds and hunting, and I have walked more hounds than most people have had hot dinners, and also whelped a fair few bitches. I am a very good judge of what is right in a hound too.
I do not dress up like a Huntsman, nor do I show them on a tight lead. Heaven forbid.

What I do is Champion the Foxhound and Foxhunting. Long may it live.
 

Binkle&Flip

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Alec may be making an exclamation but is not telling someone to go **** themselves.

A big difference methinks. And do remember that offending post was deleted by the Forum Moderaor - not by other forum members. Jeez someone just cant get over themselves!
Jeez some people have absolutely no sense of humour whatsoever!
 

Binkle&Flip

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A couple of years ago, and whilst reading a totally different discussion, I read that someone pointed out, to another, that the mark of a person loosing an argument, was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes. Read, Mark, Learn, then Inwardly Digest, and you may end up apologising for yours! :)

Alec.
Yep. No sense of humour either!
 

Fiagai

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Insulting Forum Members and having postings deleted by the Forum Moderator after you told a poster them to go **** themselves hardly engenders your brand of *humour*
 
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