Foxhounds at Crufts

[Dazzleby]

I don't need to be rude! I am just factual.

The picture of the foxhoundx that Mrs George posted is grossly overweight FACT. Look at it, I don't care who owns it. It is FAT. The owner is obviously overfeeding and not giving it enough exercise. FACT. Owner not suited to high activity canine FACT.

UK hunts dump unwanted foxhounds in Ireland FACT. Ring any pound owner in Ireland and ask for their opinion.

I know there are good people in Ireland looking after foxhounds. Well done to them.

I have stated before I have Foxhounds bred by me working in packs. My hounds are fit for function and purpose.

Just because people in the past have been unable to train a foxhound to do another job, does not mean that the foxhound cannot do that job. It means the trainer was incompetent. They are not difficult to train at all. They can excel in many spheres.

Perhaps the doubters on this forum should be less closed minded.

If you saw my hounds in action you would understand.

 

[Maesfen]

The Foxhound breed standard was incorrect, and I had it changed, the KC were perfectly helpful.

.

What do the KC actually know about hound breeding though, that is the question and what permission did you have that allowed them to change it as breed standards are usually set in stone?

Dazzleby, you obviously love your breeding and showing and in a small pond, you have done quite well but I have to ask, why oh why did you have to pick the Foxhound as your breed; why not some other breed that you could have championed? You do Foxhounds a great disservice, sorry.

 

[Dazzleby]

You have to qualify for Crufts as a start and I don't believe (very willing to be corrected) that the Kennel Club accept hound breeding as being registered so all hunt hounds are ineligible. More fool them as most hound breeding goes back (and can be verified too) to the mid 1700s so more likely far longer than a lot of other breeds that are registed KC.
Wasn't a very nice specimen though, would love to know the breeding as hounds aren't meant to be sold to Joe Public at all.

Maesfen. the KC does accept THe MFHA studbook breeding, so you are wrong there.

 

[Dazzleby]

Hounds are shown quite differently from those at normal dog shows. Yes, they might be on a lead or couples, but the whip would be holding them, the huntsman would be in front engaging them so they are looking and standing alertly; this would not be allowed at Crufts. Other than the dedicated hound shows such as Peterborough, Honiton, Harrogate, Ardingley, Builth, Rydal and so on) normal dog shows don't allow for hounds to be shown loose which is when you'll see the more natural flowing athletic action of the hounds than when they're on leads and are the highlights of the classes.

Maesfen you state that standing in front of the hound so it is looking alert would not be allowed. WRONG

I always stand in front of my hounds making them look alert, they have been taught correctly to stand properly , and I do not need someone to hold them from behind.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......The Foxhound breed standard was incorrect, and I had it changed, the KC were perfectly helpful........

Whilst I would genuinely have no intention of being rude, Dazzelby, that statement can only be one of supreme arrogance.

For many generations, and for highly experienced Masters, and Kennel Huntsmen, the Foxhound has occupied many of their waking hours. Over several hundred years the hound has developed. Now, it seems, you would have us believe that you know more than those who've given their lives to the production of hounds.

Assuming that I haven't misunderstood, or misread your lines, could you be kind enough to explain, just how you managed to acquire such a depth of knowledge?

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

Maesfen. the KC does accept THe MFHA studbook breeding, so you are wrong there.

Yet again, I have no intention of being discourteous, but if the KC, accept the standards which have been set by the MFHA studbook, then just how did you manage to persuade them, that you knew better?

Alec.

 

[Dazzleby]

I have been working for many years as I said before. I am able to train my hounds without the use of a whip. A little kindness goes a long way. I find many of the comments on this forum quite rude, and I wonder why it is necessary?

I am a supporter of the Foxhound and hunting, and love hounds.

Just because I am capable not only of breeding lovely hounds and also producing them for the show ring to perform beautifully and be a credit to the breed, you it feel it right to insult me.

This does your posters no credit.

You don't seemed to have moved with the times at all. SAD. and very short sighted.

 

[Dazzleby]

Yet again, I have no intention of being discourteous, but if the KC, accept the standards which have been set by the MFHA studbook, then just how did you manage to persuade them, that you knew better?

Alec.

The original standards were NOT SET by the MFHA in the KC. I got them changed so that they were CORRECT to be the same as the MFHA.

I persuaded them by reasoned argument with supporting pictures and the support of a Master of Foxhounds who has a high degree of intelligence, who TOTALLY supported me.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......UK hunts dump unwanted foxhounds in Ireland FACT........

Perhaps you'd care to name and shame those packs which are behaving in this fashion. In my experience, ALL of the Uk packs, with whom I've had any dealings, always put down those hounds which are unsuitable. They don't go to the considerable expense of "dumping" them in Ireland.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

A further point for you to consider, Dazzelby; just because others consider what you are doing to be wrong, and patently, they don't agree with your actions, that doesn't mean that they are being rude or offensive, and as far as I can see, so far they haven't been so.

I'm appalled at your plans, but to date I've been polite. If you were to explain your long term plans for your hounds, then perhaps others would gain an understanding.

Alec.

 

[Spinnotta]

Alec you are so rude and I must say actually don't know what you are talking about. The Dazzleby hounds are from hunt lines which in itself shoots you down in flames.

The Dazzleby foxhounds are better cared for, more socialised and in better condition than the hounds in packs (and yes I have hunted before you say anything Alec) Not only do the Dazzleby hounds show -they also do obedience and agility which as you know (or perhaps you dont) requires control off the lead.

As for pack hounds not making good pets what utter tosh. Rosemary has 3 ex pack hounds living with her in her house, I myself have otterhounds which the same rude silly people as you said would never adjust to living as pets. I would also like to point out that other "working" dogs make great pets point in question ex racing greyhounds. I was also told that ex race horses are good for nothing however mine was the best hunter I ever had.

Alec may I suggest that you aquire more correct knowledge before spouting crap

 

[Spinnotta]

Sorry forgot to say to you Alec re your last post why should anyone tell you what their intentions with their own hounds are. As long as they are healthy and happy it has nothing to do with anyone else.

May I suggest that you actually meet the hounds before passing judgment They will be at the Stafford Show ground for the National Dog Show in May if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is and actually getting your hands on them and telling Rosemary face to face what you think is so wrong with her hounds

 

[JanetGeorge]

I am very interested by the picture posted by Janetgeorge, your pet foxhound x is grossly obese, so I would say you are definitely not the type of person suited to an active canine.

Really! She IS very overweight - she's 10 years old and arthritic (so cannot be exercised hard) and she is a thief with incredible talent! She eats anything and everything, and short of keeping her either constantly muzzled or locked up in a cage, her weight is not controllable. You know nothing about me - and nothing about the dog - so your opinion is based on pure ignorance.

Perhaps one thing that UK hunts should bear in mind, that the current system of using Ireland as a dustbin for their discarded hounds is a VERY poor idea. Many of these unfortunate hounds end up in rescue pounds in a very sorry state indeed.

If you have any evidence of ANY registered pack doing this, please PM me with their name and I'll be delighted to report them to the MFHA for disciplinary action! But why on EASRTH would Irish hunts want English foxhounds - they've been breeding them for at least as long as we have!

 

[Alec Swan]

.......Alec may I suggest that you aquire more correct knowledge before spouting crap

Had I realised that I was questioning those with such insight, then I would have saved my energies.

I shall now do as you've so courteously suggested, and attempt to "acquire more correct knowledge".

Good night.

Alec.

 

[glamourstar]

evening everyone....I am new to the forum, although I have 'lurked' for a while I decided to register after reading this post.

...What started out as a post for info on a topic of which someone just wanted some info has turned really nasty!!!

As far as I can see there are 2 distinct thoughts, Dazzleby answered pretty much everything that in some cases (not all) was rudely put to her, and then when she dared to suggest that another's dog was overweight, she was dammed for not knowing the correct story...(which is a perfectly reasonable response btw and how many of us have also had an overweight/middleaged/thieving lab!),...but in the same breath others have judged her without also knowing the full story.

As far as I can see both JanetGeorge and Dazzleby are respected professionals who have very different viewpoints on this topic, and whilst both should be listened to neither is 'right'.

For all of those people who are getting on their high horses about fox hound being solely for hunting...(a view with which i dont completely diasgree), have u ever actually tried to retrain a foxhound? I have a working collie who has adapted very well to being a pet, as well as an ex racehorse who is now a fun hobby horse who even enjoys dressage (to his disgust!)....why is that ANY different?

I really think that people should be nicer on these sort of threads and should realise that there is 'more than one way to skin a cat'!!

 

[JanetGeorge]

For all of those people who are getting on thier high horses about fox hound being solely for hunting...(a view with which i dont completely diasgree), have u ever actually tried to retrain a foxhound?

I'm not sure I would WANT to try and retrain a pack foxhound - having walked literally dozens of the little poppets, there is always a small sigh of relief when the time comes to send them back!

Leah was hard enough - and she'd obviously never been in a pack. But she'd never been trained either - and I was her 'last chance' (the no-kill shelter that had her was about to change their policy just for her!!)

There were one or two of those I walked who I think WOULD have been re-trainable after their hunting careers ended - but like any responsible MFHA pack, ours did NOT offer this as an option (even to the Master's wife!)

I do know of several people who ended up with a foxhound 'pet'. There was a rather nice vicar who got a foxhound from a 'dodgy' animal shelter (the hound had been stolen from a pack by a well-known anti). By the time one of his parishioners saw it - and suggested it might be stolen - he was VERY willing to part with it as it had proved immensely destructive and almost impossible to train!

Some years ago, I was instrumental in recovering two other stolen foxhounds: they had been in another somewhat 'dodgy' rescue for 8 months. They were young hounds who'd never hunted, but the shelter found it impossible to teach them to lead (took me 24 hours!), they had allowed them to get painfully thin - saying it was because they raced up and down their kennel non-stop all day! They wouldn't come when called (that also took 24 hours - and a lot of biscuits - to correct!)

I certainly don't think it's impossible to 're-train' a pack foxhound - but it's certainly not easy and if you get it wrong, then the neighbours ducks, cats and sheep are at risk! The pack foxhound who has hunted IS a hunting machine - you don't TEACH a foxhound to hunt - you teach him not to hunt anything but the legitimate quarry!

The only hounds relatively EASY to retrain would be the 'useless' (as hunters) sort!

 

[Jim Moriarty]

I'd agree with you 100%! And I'd go further - the Kennel Club wants shooting, en masse, for what they've ALLOWED to happen to many breeds!

Couldn't agree more. The KC is an utter shambles.

 

[Jim Moriarty]

Ooh, allo. Reinforcements!

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Well, I'm sure that makes all the difference.

you're a charmer---how can you chuck adead hound on a muck heap?

 

[Herne]

This discussion is getting overly personal.

No doubt Dazzleby loves her hounds and looks after them, etc, etc, etc.

However, equally fox hunting people are quite right to be pleased with the fact that Foxhounds have (mostly) been kept out of showing and quite right to be wary of what showing will do to the breed.

If anyone wants to know why, just look at the following.

This (at the bottom of the page) is a hunting Basset Hound (Peterborough Champion Bitch 08); http://www.themastersvoice.co.uk/2009-june/bassets-david-hindle.php

This is this year's Crufts Champion Basset Hound: http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=HOU&ScheduleID=121

We do not want the same thing to happen to the fox hound - and quite right too!

 

[Daisychain]

OMG that is actually shocking.... i bet the show breed doesnt live very long, look at its legs and its massively overweight body.

Why would anybody knowingly breed such deformity.

 

[EAST KENT]

If you show a "rare" breed at KC shows..and you are usually the only one there ..well you win lots . It is the easy ride ,the hollow victory! Me? I`d rather have a bit of competition and get wins worth treasuring,breed damn good dogs of my breed for others to show and enjoy.
Not for me those daft "Breeder Stakes" where a breeder swans about with four animals of their breeding,the point is?? As for all being in matching hunt type waistcoats..oh no.
You do a huge disservice to foxhounds in your lust for pots and prizes and should leave one of our last true WORKING breeds to those who treasure them for just that.The true test of any hound is if it can work ,have stamina,stay healthy..if it looks good that is a bonus ,and it might get bred from.Our hounds have to prove their worth in the field,look reasonable and often are four or five before they have done that enough to earn being bred from.That is how it should be,don`t expect hound people to condone your kc showing,they never will,rightly so.

 

[glamourstar]

OMG that is actually shocking.... i bet the show breed doesnt live very long, look at its legs and its massively overweight body.

Why would anybody knowingly breed such deformity.

I completely agree it is shocking, but so is selective breeding in any form if you think of it from a 'natural point or view'. Just do a search on google images for 'double muscle belgian blue', although I guess you could argue that breed has a purpose it still can't be healthy for the animal. Or what about the chickens selectively bred for fast growth and often their bone density is not enough to support their own mass?

You do a huge disservice to foxhounds in your lust for pots and prizes and should leave one of our last true WORKING breeds to those who treasure them for just that.The true test of any hound is if it can work ,have stamina,stay healthy..if it looks good that is a bonus ,and it might get bred from.Our hounds have to prove their worth in the field,look reasonable and often are four or five before they have done that enough to earn being bred from.That is how it should be,don`t expect hound people to condone your kc showing,they never will,rightly so.

If Dazzleby is in fact what she says she is and is closely involved with the local hound pack why shouldnt she choose to show her hounds if she has permission and is able to do so....why is this different from showing any other working dog.

TBH I think this old fashioned view that only the hunt have the skills and intelligence to breed foxhounds is one aspect of the whole attitude that gives hunting its bad name in some circles. Surely hunts are selectively breeding hounds for different terrain as well, and as she has already stated, they she is breeding according to the breed standard sanctioned by the MFHA. I think that this is the same attitude that means that when I go out hunting I say a massive thank you to any followers or cars that stop, slow down or help.....because you can bet your bottom dollar that those arround me on a Saturday dont say thank you!! I think some people who have posted on this thread have been very stuck up to be perfectly honest!

 

[EAST KENT]

And shame on that pack if it is true!

 

[Maesfen]

Maesfen. the KC does accept THe MFHA studbook breeding, so you are wrong there.

Thank you for the correction

Maesfen you state that standing in front of the hound so it is looking alert would not be allowed. WRONG

I was referring to the correct way to show foxhounds when two 'handlers' would not be allowed into the ring as they normally do, not what you do yourself so I don't consider that was a wrong comment, sorry.

Alec you are so rude
I'm sorry, that is so unfair; Alec is one of the most polite and sensible posters on the whole forum.

As for pack hounds not making good pets what utter tosh. Rosemary has 3 ex pack hounds living with her in her house, I myself have otterhounds which the same rude silly people as you said would never adjust to living as pets.

You are giving the impression that every foxhound would be suitable for re-homing as a pet which certainly is a load of tosh. Very few would be suitable candidates and being used to a life of hunting when they are taught to work as a pack; it would be totally unfair to ask them to then lead a restricted lifestyle without others of their own kind.

There were one or two of those I walked who I think WOULD have been re-trainable after their hunting careers ended - but like any responsible MFHA pack, ours did NOT offer this as an option (even to the Master's wife!)

I certainly don't think it's impossible to 're-train' a pack foxhound - but it's certainly not easy and if you get it wrong, then the neighbours ducks, cats and sheep are at risk! The pack foxhound who has hunted IS a hunting machine - you don't TEACH a foxhound to hunt - you teach him not to hunt anything but the legitimate quarry!

The only hounds relatively EASY to retrain would be the 'useless' (as hunters) sort!

Yes, we've walked some that we would have welcomed back but at the end of the day, if anything had gone wrong, even though retired and no longer being in kennel, it would be the hunt that would have the black mark against them for being so irresponsible as to let them be re-homed to pet homes. There aren't many people that would have the space and correct facilities for adult hounds that only know how to hunt. Like horses, better the end you know than risk them being lost, stolen or worse still, causing mayhem in the community; it's funny when they are pups at walk when they get into mischief but not so funny with a full grown hound that might not be so easy to handle (or catch!)

This discussion is getting overly personal.

No doubt Dazzleby loves her hounds and looks after them, etc, etc, etc.

However, equally fox hunting people are quite right to be pleased with the fact that Foxhounds have (mostly) been kept out of showing and quite right to be wary of what showing will do to the breed.

If anyone wants to know why, just look at the following.

This (at the bottom of the page) is a hunting Basset Hound (Peterborough Champion Bitch 08); http://www.themastersvoice.co.uk/2009-june/bassets-david-hindle.php

This is this year's Crufts Champion Basset Hound: http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=HOU&ScheduleID=121

We do not want the same thing to happen to the fox hound - and quite right too!

I've whelped and walked hounds for the Albany Bassets, as you can see from these pics, they have altered into a far more athletic hound from when we first started with them some twelve years ago when they were still all KC registered and from show stock - who couldn't catch a cold but had glorious voices! They have since used stallion hounds from other basset packs rather than the show stock and they have vastly improved. Now they hunt very well and still get the hairs on the back of your neck rising when in full cry. http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/gallery1.php

 

[Alec Swan]

....... with supporting pictures and the support of a Master of Foxhounds who has a high degree of intelligence, who TOTALLY supported me.

If I'm not to be accused of being rude, I'm not too sure how to reply to that!!

Look on the bright side, there will be very few Masters who would countenance such support, so with luck, as the available gene pool will be minuscule, so will the growth of this aspect of dog showing.

Alec.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

OMG that is actually shocking.... i bet the show breed doesnt live very long, look at its legs and its massively overweight body.

Why would anybody knowingly breed such deformity.

to which picture are you referring DC?

 

[Herne]

to which picture are you referring DC?

The ones in the preceding message.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=9505128&postcount=80

 

[Dazzleby]

Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned and anal.

 

[EAST KENT]

Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned and anal.

Been showing at KC shows for forty years now and have yet to meet anyone who has a clue about the world of hunting, perhaps Anne Roslin Williams..from the terrier work angle,but no one who understands hunting and how to go about it. In fact ,Tom Horner was the only judge I ever heard of attending a hunt puppy show,let alone Peterborough or Ardingly.
The sooner foxhounds are left to hunting people the better.