Golden button challenge

I am in two minds about it all, 10 years ago I would have been totally up for the challenge, I hunted my horse at that time over land that way and we had some great days out. Ironically enough he broke down, trotting a 20 m circle in a school on a perfect surface. However these days, I feel I have seen enough of horses being broken down, as much as I am sure my little lad would relish that race, I wouldn't do it. I don't care any more or less than 10 years ago, my experiences has changed. A client of ours was in the race and he fits the 'type' that would enter, they came home safe but I personally would not even go and watch. Even those videos make me cringe.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
Look at Hickstead, couldn't exactly say he was pushed beyond his limit that day,but he suffered the same tragedy. If an accident happens to an unfit horse that's what concerns me, I think I am particularly upset by that thought after watching this video of the Antler Challenge... see 5:54-6:11 and then 6:23-6:31, poor bloody thing was exhausted and the rider kept pushing on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcj8Xib3KuM
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I don't understand, for all of you that go hunting and defend this sort of race as not being as hard or as long as a days hunting or no different to what you would do hunting. would you really ride past a person who has their foot caught in the stirrup and looks to be knocked out? would you really continue to ride past or jump over a horse and rider fallen in a ditch? Would you really push a horse as exhausted as the one that falls at 6.23?

What is it about the human race that makes competition change the boundaries of what is acceptable?

Again I want to say that I do not class a heart attack after a race as cruelty-if the horse had an undiagnosed heart condition it could happen anywhere and anytime
 
twiggy2 said:
I don't understand, for all of you that go hunting and defend this sort of race as not being as hard or as long as a days hunting or no different to what you would do hunting. would you really ride past a person who has their foot caught in the stirrup and looks to be knocked out? would you really continue to ride past or jump over a horse and rider fallen in a ditch? Would you really push a horse as exhausted as the one that falls at 6.23?

What is it about the human race that makes competition change the boundaries of what is acceptable?

Again I want to say that I do not class a heart attack after a race as cruelty-if the horse had an undiagnosed heart condition it could happen anywhere and anytime
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Hunt races like that are different to hunting in that you do keep going its a race after all. There are lots of people on the ground to help. I have yet to see the field stop in horse race to make sure a faller is ok. I will concede the tired horse was not something I would have done ,however it was the last fence and to a lot that take part all they want to do is get round and finish . That is no defence but maybe an explanation.
 
twiggy2 said:
I don't understand, for all of you that go hunting and defend this sort of race as not being as hard or as long as a days hunting or no different to what you would do hunting. would you really ride past a person who has their foot caught in the stirrup and looks to be knocked out? would you really continue to ride past or jump over a horse and rider fallen in a ditch? Would you really push a horse as exhausted as the one that falls at 6.23?

What is it about the human race that makes competition change the boundaries of what is acceptable?

Again I want to say that I do not class a heart attack after a race as cruelty-if the horse had an undiagnosed heart condition it could happen anywhere and anytime
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I don't claim to be a someone that goes out hunting on a regular basis, I am a bit too much of a fair weather rider for that and don't have the time ! but your questions seen a bit irrelevant? not defending any side here but where does any of the riding past an unconscious rider come in to it? If you are referring to people in the race not stopping when an incident occurs, it would be far more dangerous to start pulling up and disrupting the middle of a race when there are plenty of people on foot to check on them. There is very little you can do from an excitable horse without causing a lot more danger ! And I think anyone who pushes an exhausted horse should be utterly ashamed of themselves, it's disgusting. I don't think you can compare the race to a full days hunting IMO, there are breaks in the fast work instead of going at full pelt for a few minutes over fences that people feel they have to jump even if they are unsure if they are capable as a horse and rider team.
 
popsdosh said:
Sometimes I think we can just get carried away by several unrelated incidents happening in one event and over react without knowing the truth. I once saw 6 horses lose their lives at Huntingdon at a meting ,but the three meetings after that not one coincidence does come into play sometimes!
Why did you feel you needed to bring class into it as that event is open to anybody not just restricted to the 'hooray Henries' . It is a race from experience where the age of the horses would most likely be higher than in racing so maybe that may be part of the reason. As you know from racing it is not uncommon for horses to drop dead soon after a race but because its out of the way of the public it does not get publicised and you could not say they were not capable of competing.
As for picking on the situation that was mentioned in the thread how can you say that the horse was not capable of doing the race ,there is no evidence that the race actually caused his demise. Certainly to me the picture of him being washed off does not look like a horse that has over exerted themselves.
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I used the term to describe someone who is gung ho and careers across country without due care and attention.

Regardless of what a horse looks like, if they drop dead 5 minutes after a race they aren't 'fine' and if it had been just one horse, fine it happens. But there were three others.

A three mile demanding race needs to have entry criteria for both rider and horse. In this day and age, it can't be so cavalier (no I'm not being classist with that word either...) To allow anyone to go.

I think the numerous comments from spectators who wouldn't go again are quite telling.
 
Rapidash said:
I used the term to describe someone who is gung ho and careers across country without due care and attention.

Regardless of what a horse looks like, if they drop dead 5 minutes after a race they aren't 'fine' and if it had been just one horse, fine it happens. But there were three others.

A three mile demanding race needs to have entry criteria for both rider and horse. In this day and age, it can't be so cavalier (no I'm not being classist with that word either...) To allow anyone to go.

I think the numerous comments from spectators who wouldn't go again are quite telling.
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Letting anyone enter is one of the appeals of this event to most people getting round is all that matters it is a challenge rather than a race. Are your entry criteria going to include a full heart scan and ECG before they start , I have just watched the video of the event and could not quite see the carnage everybody has described there were some fallers but to me they set off at a reasonable pace and I could not see anybody who was pushing their horse to hard and only saw a whip used once to straighten up a horse at a hedge(tiny slap on the neck). The conditions did not look good with a lot of it on maize stubble so that probably tells the story ,nearly a third pulled out before the start.
Please can I put the ball into your court how do you devise entry criteria for this race that protects the horses like you aspire to do. one horse broke its leg well that can happen to the best of them, The particular horse you have mentioned would have qualified to run under any criteria and was an experienced advanced eventer. I cant comment on the others as I dont know what happened to them and there is some conjecture as it may have only been three horses in total! Before I get jumped on that is 3 to many in an ideal world but as I said before sometimes several coincidences come together and make things look so much worse than they were.
 
Haven't got much to add but I know one jockey very well who sadly lost her horse 5 mins after the race and I can tell you 100% she would have prepared that horse probably better than any of the others there, he was in superb condition, both are very experienced and she most certainly would have pulled him up during the race if she had felt anything was amiss. It was a sad thing to happen but could not have been prevented, heart attacks happen any time and if she had known it was going to happen I am sure she would have done something. I wasnt there and cannot comment on anything else that happened but felt you ought to know this was 1 horse and jockey who clearly loved each other and it was a terrible terrible loss.
 
gunnergundog said:
I was there as a spectator and know some of the people involved in the organisation. Just to address a couple of points raised above, in no particular order:

1. Size of field......the field was actually smaller than what you could expect on a Saturday meet of any of the 'top' Shires packs, and on a good day the action was little different. Except it was a race
2. No qualification criteria for entry......there is no criteria for entry when hunting with the Ledbury (over whose land the event ran), or any other hunt for that matter. Common sense is what prevails out hunting and also, I believe, here when you look at the numbers that withdrew after walking the course. Whether this was due to the state of the going, the size of the fences, feeling a bit chicken and having 'talked the talk' but not being able to 'walk the walk', who cares. Those people decided it wasn't for them or their horse on this occasion, so hats off to them for making that call. As an aside, one of the fallers had also won the event on former occasions so sometimes it's just down to Lord Luck not being on your side. how many actually ran then? It could have been more? - Did the loose horses after fence 2 that continued cause anyone else any problems?
3. Distance and fitness of horses.............the distance was no more than a good old fashioned point, so should not have been a problem to those properly prepared, ridden considerately, or indeed pulled up by those aware of a tired horse. The event has run often enough for people to know what to expect. It hasn't run that often? 5 years then they had a break then this year? and was the first time over this going, on a 'marsh'?
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I think I am just inclined to agree with Rachelferd, when you consider the effort that goes into keeping horses as safe as possible jump racing. I certainly feel for WorMy losing her chap and am sure she was plenty prepared but I do think that they are going to have to try and make improvements some how given that it hasn't been run that often, I'm not sure how the stats compare with open team chasing?
 
ester said:
I'm not sure how the stats compare with open team chasing?
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Would be interesting.....lots more open team chases but using the same horses a lot?
Also open team chasing is kind of self regulated in that you have to have a team that will take you on, as as they are professional or at least sponsored teams nowadays (not sure of the meaning of the term professional really) they are in it to win it and don't want people who are underprepared or incapable. Would also be interesting to see how many completions/ fallers came from different sections....ie background of competitors. Too hard to do in reality but that would tell whether it is the luck of the draw or is there is an element of regulation needed?

ETA I am actually less interested in the pts horses and feel super sorry for all connections of these as like people have been saying, a heart attack after or an unfortunate accident can happen anywhere... More interested in what chances people actually have of getting round coz I think that this is where the chance of accident and injury comes in.
 
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I don't know how I feel about this ride....I really, really don't.
A friend of mine took part in 2013 (I think?) incredibly experienced rider (4* eventer, open team chaser, hunting, jockey licence) & the horse was prepared meticulously. They had a wonderful spin round, both thoroughly enjoyed it....wonderful.

I also know a girl who took part yesterday. They were both ridiculously underprepared IMO. I know the horse has had previous long standing tendon issues & whilst they have both been hunting regularly they'd done 2 hunter trials last season & that was it. Now that is lunacy IMO & putting yourself, your horse & the other horses in the field at risk like that is what gives this challenge the bad press.
 
I have nothing to add bar to pass on sympathy to WorMy for her loss. He certainly looks like he was enjoying it, ears pricked and head high. Losing a horse - no matter how it happens - is never easy. Horses are just as likely to have heart attacks hooning around in the field as they are on a racecourse, there's no rhyme or reason.
 
glamourpuss said:
I don't know how I feel about this ride....I really, really don't.
A friend of mine took part in 2013 (I think?) incredibly experienced rider (4* eventer, open team chaser, hunting, jockey licence) & the horse was prepared meticulously. They had a wonderful spin round, both thoroughly enjoyed it....wonderful.

I also know a girl who took part yesterday. They were both ridiculously underprepared IMO. I know the horse has had previous long standing tendon issues & whilst they have both been hunting regularly they'd done 2 hunter trials last season & that was it. Now that is lunacy IMO & putting yourself, your horse & the other horses in the field at risk like that is what gives this challenge the bad press.
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I totally get where you are coming from but who is responsible at the end of the day the rider or the organisers. For the life of me I cannot see how the organisers can police it as horses come from all over the country and ireland on occassions,how are they to know if the combination is capable or not.
I dont think the riders can duck responsibility for their actions only they truely know their horses and obviously a good number yesterday chose not to run having walked the course.
The only workable option that I can think of is some system where if you are deemed to have run your horse and there are any questions about its fitness to run,the riders ability or inappropriate riding including not pulling up a tired that rider is then banned from taking part again. I cannot really see any other way of doing it.

Having said that who can say whether that would have saved one horse yesterday probably not.
 
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popsdosh said:
I totally get where you are coming from but who is responsible at the end of the day the rider or the organisers. For the life of me I cannot see how the organisers can police it as horses come from all over the country and ireland on occassions,how are they to know if the combination is capable or not.
I dont think the riders can duck responsibility for their actions only they truely know their horses and obviously a good number yesterday chose not to run having walked the course.
The only workable option that I can think of is some system where if you are deemed to have run your horse and there are any questions about its fitness to run,the riders ability or inappropriate riding including not pulling up a tired that rider is then banned from taking part again. I cannot really see any other way of doing it.

Having said that who can say whether that would have saved one horse yesterday probably not.
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Exactly why I don't know how to feel about it. Whenever there is responsibility on owners/riders you will always get those that well....ruin it & what can the organisers do to make things safer that won't diminish the challenge & the appeal of it? Nothing.
 
There were several horses who unseated their riders very early on in the race and went on to complete most of the course - there will be some of you who say they continued in fear/pack mentality but I personally think it demonstrates that the horses actually like running the course.

We had a horse die on us a few years ago team chasing - it was a freak heart attack, he was a fit horse who had hunted all season. We didn't enter a team thinking "sod it, it's just a horse and we are massive hooray henrys who likes to inflict pain on horses we ride" he was entered because he loved his hunting and hedge hopping and he was mega all the way round, hopped off at the finish, whipped his saddle off and he dropped - it is to this day one of the most traumatic experiences I've seen.
 
I don't understand why you can't have entry criteria for this race? How would that ruin it? 3 (or 4) horses dying in 1 race is too much. I don't agree with letting people self regulate either, some people have a very inflated opinion of their capabilities and fitness. You don't open up Badminton and say that riders can have a crack without qualifying!

So 1/3 dropped out, but 60 still rode. I love NH racing but horses are not expendable and to me, the race needs to tighten up its qualifications.
 
Luci07 said:
I don't understand why you can't have entry criteria for this race? How would that ruin it? 3 (or 4) horses dying in 1 race is too much. I don't agree with letting people self regulate either, some people have a very inflated opinion of their capabilities and fitness. You don't open up Badminton and say that riders can have a crack without qualifying!

So 1/3 dropped out, but 60 still rode. I love NH racing but horses are not expendable and to me, the race needs to tighten up its qualifications.
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I think you totally misunderstand what this is .It is not a NH race it is a challenge of 3m across country over all types of obstacles .There is nothing in place that can prove whether a partnership is up to it or not it is a one off it is down to the riders to decide if they are up to it ,it ids not something you take on lightly .Lets challenge you to come up with the criteria,lets start with who decides whos capable bearing in mind the horses come from all over the country and ireland..One horse as far as I am aware got an injury that required PTS and as bad as that sounds I would say for that type of event is not unusual .I watched the video and to be honest was surprised by how considerate most of the riders were they were obviously taking account of the conditions.I was expecting worse if I am honest.
 
As one who doesn't know a great deal about this race I feel the question that needs to be asked is 'are this many horse deaths the norm?' if so then I agree that maybe some measures may be required to make it safer. If this was a 'freak' year then these things do just sometimes happen. Remember the year there were 3 deaths at Badminton? This sometimes happens at Cheltenham, the Grand National and sometimes as a livery yard we lose a disproportionate amount of horses in a year (to various causes) whereas most years we lose none. Sometimes these things 'just happen'.
 
minesadouble said:
As one who doesn't know a great deal about this race I feel the question that needs to be asked is 'are this many horse deaths the norm?' if so then I agree that maybe some measures may be required to make it safer. If this was a 'freak' year then these things do just sometimes happen. Remember the year there were 3 deaths at Badminton? This sometimes happens at Cheltenham, the Grand National and sometimes as a livery yard we lose a disproportionate amount of horses in a year (to various causes) whereas most years we lose none. Sometimes these things 'just happen'.
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^^This^^

I'm not saying nothing should be done to ensure safety etc but often there is nothing that can be done and very sad coincidences just happen.
e.g. on a lesser scale we very very very rarely have the vet out aside from jabs and vaccs, but in the space of two weeks we had to call them out for a very nasty cut (horse managed to catch her leg in the gate), colic and a suspected slipping stifle (it turned out she'd just tweaked something)..having never in well at least 15 years had any issues like this.
 
minesadouble said:
As one who doesn't know a great deal about this race I feel the question that needs to be asked is 'are this many horse deaths the norm?' if so then I agree that maybe some measures may be required to make it safer. If this was a 'freak' year then these things do just sometimes happen. Remember the year there were 3 deaths at Badminton? This sometimes happens at Cheltenham, the Grand National and sometimes as a livery yard we lose a disproportionate amount of horses in a year (to various causes) whereas most years we lose none. Sometimes these things 'just happen'.
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I looked up stats on this last night. There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years. By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase. Over 7% ever year. It's not a freak event.

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it". But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned. In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe. Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home. Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race. So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
 
nianya said:
I looked up stats on this last night. There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years. By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase. Over 7% ever year. It's not a freak event.

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it". But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned. In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe. Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home. Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race. So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
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Tell us how?
 
And why would it be my job to tell you how to do it? Seems to me that's the responsibility of those people who want to be involved in the sport.
 
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nianya said:
And why would it be my job to tell you how to do it? Seems to me that's the responsibility of those people who want to be involved in the sport. But if so many other sports can do it, clearly it's not impossible. Otherwise the people involved have just abdicated their responsibility to both horses and riders.
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Even you who say it should be regulated have ducked your responsibility!!!
I ask because there is it appears from some posting a total misunderstanding of the concept of this challenge. Where is the rider responsibility in your answer they are the person who should best know there horses and their own capabilities. Ultimately the organisers offer the opportunity to take part it is not a series ,there are not many similar events ,there is no national federation so who regulates it. Most importantly nobody is forcing you to do it.

If you wish to take part you can ,I am afraid the riders of today expect others to take responsibility for their actions when the buck in this case stops with them! In my opinion this has been blown out of all proportion,I have seen the video and out of all honesty see worse riding every weekend at BE which is regulated,horses die doing that as well but it does not get publicised .If it had not been for the OP I can bet we would not be discussing this now as it does not appear to have made the news elsewhere so far.
As I and others have said maybe just been unlucky this year with coincidence bringing things together.
What I find so amazing is an Event rider( Regularly competed in UK) died at the weekend and it has barely had a mention on here . Its ok though his horse was not hurt.
If anybody is interested it was Francisco Seabra .
 
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Actually I have just trawled through a load of stuff on the Internet and the only place there is any mention of four horses losing their lives is in post 2.on this thread it has never been confirmed !!!!
 
nianya said:
I looked up stats on this last night. There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years. By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase. Over 7% ever year. It's not a freak event.

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it". But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned. In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe. Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home. Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race. So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
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If figures quoted are for 'steeplechasing' then that will refer to racing under rules, therefore those figures are not applicable to this event.
 
I find it unreal how irresponsible some horse owners are these days. It looked fun, something I probably if I had a more solid horse, would love to have a go at, but the min I felt the horse struggling I would pull up, most of these people seem incapable of doing that. Is winning really THAT important
 
nianya said:
I looked up stats on this last night. There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years. By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase. Over 7% ever year. It's not a freak event.

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it". But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned. In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe. Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home. Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race. So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
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Those stats do not apply to the golden button as they would have been taken from proper races on a racetrack. To answerthe quaestion we simply need to know the number of horse fatalities..I don't know maybe for the last 5-10 years if not more in the Golden Button
 
apparently so.

just to take an example off this thread, when Hickstead died he had shown NO signs of struggling in the course...........these horses look to be struggling from very early on, all of them,incl the winner............thats not a tragedy or an accident, its human greed and ego being put ahead of horse welfare.

as for the ex eventer that died after he finished, did the rider not owe the horse more? Bruce will not die "doing what he loved" ie passaging his nuts off in, a white foam sweat, because he gave his ALL to me and NMT and has earnt a quiet and SAFE retirement.
im sure that horse could have been kept in work in a less dangerous way.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
apparently so.

just to take an example off this thread, when Hickstead died he had shown NO signs of struggling in the course...........these horses look to be struggling from very early on, all of them,incl the winner............thats not a tragedy or an accident, its human greed and ego being put ahead of horse welfare.

as for the ex eventer that died after he finished, did the rider not owe the horse more? Bruce will not die "doing what he loved" ie passaging his nuts off in, a white foam sweat, because he gave his ALL to me and NMT and has earnt a quiet and SAFE retirement.
im sure that horse could have been kept in work in a less dangerous way.
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Agree with this. Hicksteads death was a total tragedy, no indication of anything wrong, and I dare go as far as saying it was unavoidable, maybe not now if they have done PM or whatever and found underlying problems, but on the front of things absolutely nothing was wrong.These horses falling/dying on this course isn't an 'accident' they was totally avoidable if the riders took some note of how they was struggling rather than carrying on pushing and pushing.
 
LittleRoodolphRider said:
Those stats do not apply to the golden button as they would have been taken from proper races on a racetrack. To answerthe quaestion we simply need to know the number of horse fatalities..I don't know maybe for the last 5-10 years if not more in the Golden Button
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I think the poster was just adding to the point that although a horse can break a leg in the field galloping over fences will likely increase it?

The GB has only been run on 6 occasions, 5 years previously then a break, then this year.
 
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