Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?

[Fools Motto]

I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It is only a horse.

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world. I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies.

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that.

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC

What you have said here is very true.
Sad as it is, the show will go on. The race, as cruel as some see it, will go on. The general public will always see 'the headlines' , sometimes sad, often happy. The general concesus on this forum hate horse deaths, particually those in the lime light. But it happens.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks fools motto

I'm through with the national now, that will be the last time I watch it.

Ten years ago I stopped betting on the GN. I felt too guilty waging money on something where horses were likely to lose their lives. But I still watched it. I loved it. Couldn't stop myself. Then every year I got more and more nervous in the build up and realised I was actually only watching to will them all to get around safely. Two years ago I stopped watching and will never watch it again. I have no desire to witness horses dying, live, in real time before my eyes. I don't know what the answer is. It's an institution. People's livelihoods are dependent on it...but I have to say that I think it is morally wrong.

 

[Always Henesy]

Ten years ago I stopped betting on the GN. I felt too guilty waging money on something where horses were likely to lose their lives. But I still watched it. I loved it. Couldn't stop myself. Then every year I got more and more nervous in the build up and realised I was actually only watching to will them all to get around safely. Two years ago I stopped watching and will never watch it again. I have no desire to witness horses dying, live, in real time before my eyes. I don't know what the answer is. It's an institution. People's livelihoods are dependent on it...but I have to say that I think it is morally wrong.

Agree totally with this ^^^^
That is exactly what I would have posted.

 

[dressagelove]

But do they choose to be ridden or choose to jump brightly coloured poles or choose to do piaffe? Don't turn this into a its not natural post! Horses are honest and they are kind and they will do what is asked of them and what they are trained to do. They don't always have a choice x

No I disagree, a jockey and a racehorse a rarely a partnership. He is a hired body who has perhaps sat on the horse once or twice before. The fact is they are using herd instinct to make the horses race.

Does anybody truly believe that if you sent a single horse around that course one by one they would do it? Of course they wouldn't, they would jack it in at the first fence, or second if they were really bold. The only reason those horses keep going is herd instinct.

Dressage horses usually have very deep connections and trust in their riders, trained over years and years. As do other equestrian sports etc.

 

[indie999]

Let's be honest.


Animals die for the entertainment of most of the people on this forum.

They are turned into shoes we don't need, into leather saddles we don't need, into food for cats and dogs that we don't need to keep either.

We're *all* greedy. Greedy for those shoes or for our pet cat to cuddle. We're all implicated.

You are right in the grand scheme of things some are essential requirements of existence ie food probably being the main one, but some die for our luxury and pleasure. Its having a bit of compassion and welfare? Not everyone is as ignorant or selfish, but quite a few are.

 

[SusannaF]

You are right in the grand scheme of things some are essential requirements of existence ie food probably being the main one, but some die for our luxury and pleasure. Its having a bit of compassion and welfare? Not everyone is as ignorant or selfish, but quite a few are.

In the era we live in, we don't have to eat animals or wear them. There are other things to eat and other materials to wear. We don't need to keep pets either.

 

[catwithclaws]

I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It is only a horse.

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world. I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies.

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that.

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC

i have to be scandalous as well, as i agree with u.

it is very very sad that these horses have died, i don't think anyone would dispute that. however i don't agree with 'the horses have not consented to run' card. horses do not consent to go in and do a show jumping round, cross country round, dressage test.

yet most of us do some form of 'dangerous' riding. if these horses are 'forced' to race, does this mean that after one refusal show jumping, we should retire? because our horse has not 'consented' to jump the fence?? or should we allow our horses to turn round out hacking and run back to the yard, because they didn't 'consent' to walk past the scary plastic bag in the hedge??

unfortunately i agree that horses are replaceable, i don't mind nasty comments as it is only my opinion and i'm not saying everyone should feel the same

after all, wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same?

 

[horseluver4eva]

the grand national shouldnt even be allowed. it is a act of cruelty that no body seems to realise. people say horses obviously like it because they carry on running when somebody falls, no in fact its because thats what they were trained for. i think it was 2 horse that died last year all for a bloody race, are animals lives and feelings not taken into consideration? their lives are worth just as much as ours and the course is horrendous. i no longer watch the grand national as all they are doing is pushing the horses to their limit. a jockey once hit a horse so hard whilst racing its heart burst, so that shows they go to great lengths to win and the horses to please those on their back. people cant abuse their animals, well in my eyes the grand national is nothing but a day filled with abuse. summing it up.... a innocent life is taken for entertainment purposes. because that sounds fair doesnt it...
rant over

 

[cptrayes]

I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world. I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies.

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that.

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC

Jess if two or three horses out of thirty died every week you went hunting, and two or three horses in every section of every BE event died on the cross country -

- would you still go if the event was allowed to be held?

- and if you would not still go (I'm a risk taker but I wouldn't accept those odds for my horses) do you think those events should still be run?

Please remember when you answer that it would mean a typical BE event with eight sections a day with c35 runners in each section would have an average of 20 horse deaths PER DAY.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

The race has become less safe the smaller and more straightforward the fences have been made. In addition, the raising of the rating bar for horses to enter and the increase in prize money along with the ground not being the safer bottomless mud means that faster horses are entered and in the faster ground that comes into play and when they fall they dont slide they break.

I would like to see the National fences restored to their original height so horses HAVE to slow down as they come to them, the 'chutes' reviewed as I think they cause just as many accidents by loose horses being able to keep up for longer as they duck round each fence and rejoin the pack going at great speed, and the numbers reduced to 30.

I also would like a stipulation that the race will only ever take place in at least good to soft conditions with some soft patches or muddier.

According to Pete was especially unlucky I think being brought down. I was very surprised to see Synchronised being run in it so soon after the Gold Cup and I think that was an unfair ask of the horse.

I love the race but unless the authorities have to guts to say actually smaller fences are NOT safer they are more dangerous I fear its days are numbered and unless they bite that bullet and can win that argument I think it may not run forever.

 

[dressagelove]

i have to be scandalous as well, as i agree with u.

it is very very sad that these horses have died, i don't think anyone would dispute that. however i don't agree with 'the horses have not consented to run' card. horses do not consent to go in and do a show jumping round, cross country round, dressage test.

yet most of us do some form of 'dangerous' riding. if these horses are 'forced' to race, does this mean that after one refusal show jumping, we should retire? because our horse has not 'consented' to jump the fence?? or should we allow our horses to turn round out hacking and run back to the yard, because they didn't 'consent' to walk past the scary plastic bag in the hedge??

unfortunately i agree that horses are replaceable, i don't mind nasty comments as it is only my opinion and i'm not saying everyone should feel the same

after all, wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same?

There's so many errors in your post I can't even begin to address it.

 

[diluteherd]

Before I say anything I think thoughts should be with the stable girls and boys the ones who spent the most time with the horses that had to be put to sleep.

May Synchronise and According to Pete rest in peace.

I dont know a lot about racing, Ive been round a few places with a vet in newmarket and all I can say is how gobsmacked I was seeing the yards they live in. I do believe though if a horse doesnt want to race it wont race or put its all into the race and those are the ones that end up being rehomed or at the meat man.

Sync. shouldnt have run, in the saddling up area that was a horse in completely the wrong mind frame and then dumping his rider.. there were signs all to clearly ignored by those responsible for him.

I thought the whole race was a mess with the starting line f'up. Those horses were ready to go twice.. the adrenaline in riders and horses was pumping and I dont think that did them any favours when it came to the race... adrenaline can be amazing but also it can be leathal to performance.

I personally would go back over the years the GN has been run, compare fallers, faltalities, what was different with the races who had the least fallers to the ones that had the most.. what has changed between them?

Racing will go on, too much money in it, i provides so many jobs and so many businesses rely on such a large percentage of the racing industry for their annual turn over.

For the horses sake though.. I firmly believe the numbers could be looked at being cut back. But I also think as a whole the breeding of TBs has got to be looked at. Yes great sports animals but taking the welfare of the animals into account and their life after the track, perhaps breeding so they are more hardier (i know there are the odd one that lives on nothing) could be a starting point. There are too many that get bought by novices who dont know how to cater for a TB and just cant look after them then they end up as neglect cases. Also in a perfect world the race yards could look at spending a month or two putting them through rehab so they are a more 'all-round' horse ready to be bought and made into a riding horse. The breed is hugely versatile and it is a shame to see so many go to waste.

I think as a whole though not a lot will change we are very tiny fish in a great big sea of sharks, like a lot of industries that use animals for financial gain the animals will always be the brunt.

 

[amandap]

The GN brings out the true colours of some people.

Just what I was thinking.

I think as a whole though not a lot will change we are very tiny fish in a great big sea of sharks, like a lot of industries that use animals for financial gain the animals will always be the brunt.

Sadly I agree... as long as horses are considered somehow less than us, of little value except in a monetary sense and as disposable 'items', there is no hope for us.

 

[Moggy in Manolos]

But I still watched it. I loved it. Couldn't stop myself. Then every year I got more and more nervous in the build up and realised I was actually only watching to will them all to get around safely.

I have to say, I get more and more emotional watching it, willing the horses and jockeys to get round safe. Today was tragic and we do need to do more to stop this, what exactly I do not know. I do think and have thought for some years that the numbers are too high. It was carnage out there today, way way too many fallers. These beautiful animals try their hearts out for us and it can be all over for them moments later, very sad. I may not watch it again, much as I feel compelled to I found myself in a bit of a high emotional state watching today, a kind of stressed emotional state. Let us hope that they can come up with a solution to this and prevent further deaths for all racing, not just the highest profile ones

 

[Alec Swan]

I love jump racing, and I'm passionate about The National, but this afternoons fiasco, was a disgraceful display of total incompetence, at the start.

AP fell from his horse, the whole field was geed up, getting cold and waiting around was doing little to calm horses or riders, the tape attaching system looked like it had been designed by a group of boy scouts, the struggle to re-attach it did little to calm the nerves of the waiting jockeys, and as for the safety improvements to the course, they worked, didn't they?

I'm not involved in racing, I never have been, and I'm more than happy to be corrected by the experienced.

Question 1. Over a course of 4.5 miles, what is the point of a starters tap? To be certain of a level start? That's the responsibility of the jockey.

Question 2. 5-10 years ago, the starts at the Grand Prixs, were always a dash to the first corner, with predictable results. F1 drivers have learned that it's generally a 50+ lap race. Jockeys need to learn that the National is a very long, the longest race, and look at the replays, and see where the first 4 horses came from, way back in the field, so as...

Question 3. why is being in the very best position at the first fence so vital.

Racing is doing little to help itself, I'm sorry to say.

Well done to the winner, a brilliant ride.

Alec.

 

[dressagelove]

summing it up.... a innocent life is taken for entertainment purposes.

Exactly. When all is said and done, this is the definition.

 

[gambia4life]

ill be honest have never ever watched this cruelty and never ever would!
why it hasnt been banned i really dont know, far to many horses take part and this leads to falls some fatal

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xx

 

[Tamba]

No I disagree, a jockey and a racehorse a rarely a partnership. He is a hired body who has perhaps sat on the horse once or twice before. The fact is they are using herd instinct to make the horses race.

Does anybody truly believe that if you sent a single horse around that course one by one they would do it? Of course they wouldn't, they would jack it in at the first fence, or second if they were really bold. The only reason those horses keep going is herd instinct.

Dressage horses usually have very deep connections and trust in their riders, trained over years and years. As do other equestrian sports etc.

Agree with this ^^^^, As an animal lover, personally I HATE this race in particular.
I dont feel that horse should have run today, it should have been disqualified from even starting, especially after the jockey having a fall just prior.
I WISH so much this event is cancelled and today is another example of carnage and upset.
I, myself felt sick after hearing about the fatalities today, poor horses. What a terrible shame.

 

[gambia4life]

Exactly. When all is said and done, this is the definition.

totally agree, all about the money

 

[touchstone]

I have to say, I get more and more emotional watching it, willing the horses and jockeys to get round safe. Today was tragic and we do need to do more to stop this, what exactly I do not know. I do think and have thought for some years that the numbers are too high. It was carnage out there today, way way too many fallers. These beautiful animals try their hearts out for us and it can be all over for them moments later, very sad. I may not watch it again, much as I feel compelled to I found myself in a bit of a high emotional state watching today, a kind of stressed emotional state. Let us hope that they can come up with a solution to this and prevent further deaths for all racing, not just the highest profile ones

^^^Ditto this.

 

[Auslander]

The screens at the 21st fence were up for Noel Fehily, who was unseated the first time round. He's been taken to hospital with a broken leg. Relieved it wasn't more serious.

 

[Montyforever]

I'm not saying anyone has to agree with my opinion as it is my opinion!
Yes there are risking in show jumping/eventing ect even hacking these days but the risks are so much lower.

 

[LadyRascasse]

I love racing and the GN but today I didn't enjoy it, when I saw them bypass the fence my heart sank and I kinda hoped it was a winded horse or a jockey down but it was the worst possible news. I find it harder and harder each year to justify the GN even though I love it for the great sporting spectacle that it is.

Thought I heard Weird Al was also getting treatment, anyone hear anything or is he okay?

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xx

The bypassing of the fence was an injured jockey not horse, Very sad to hear about the 2 horses. I had this horrible feeling about synchronised before the race I didn't think he would make it round. Very very sad day for According to Pete and connections as a home breed it was the most moving VT I had seen in a long time.

I feel making the fences smaller just makes the race dangerous as they will go quicker. I do feel its time for a smaller field and perhaps even a couple of shorter qualifying races over those fences earlier in the season to make sure the horses are capable of the task.

 

[A Guilding]

I have grown up and worked around some of the old Jockeys, they used to say you need a jumper to win the National, now you need a race horse.
In my youth I would of lined up on any horse and been enthusiastic about its chances. I think now the race has had its day and killing good horses is no longer acceptable .

 

[Marydoll]

I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It is only a horse.

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world. I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies.

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that.

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC

Youre entitled to your opinion, but " its only a horse" in my opinion thats a disgusting comment coming from someone who professes to care for horses

 

[Madam Min]

[QUOTEI would like to see the National fences restored to their original height so horses HAVE to slow down as they come to them, the 'chutes' reviewed as I think they cause just as many accidents by loose horses being able to keep up for longer as they duck round each fence and rejoin the pack going at great speed, and the numbers reduced to 30. [/QUOTE]

I agree, they need to reduce the field and perhaps larger fences would slow them down.

My heart goes out to all concerned with Syncronized and According to Pete, RIP xx

 

[horseluver4eva]

catwithclaws i cannot believe what you are saying, horses are not replaceable!!!!! if you had/have a child are they replaceable?...no so whats the difference with a horse. horses trust you with their life, they run to please you, they believe that you will keep them safe and each individual horse has their own attitudes, personalitys and ways. no horse is the same, the same with people. people who say they love it, i know thats your opinions and im sorry if i offend you but basically you are watching horses die and suffering.

 

[mle22]

I really feel for owners of According to Pete - I don't think he was 'just a horse' to them

 

[monkeybum13]

I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It is only a horse.

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world. I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies.

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that.

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC

Very well put jesstickle.

 

[Moggy in Manolos]

I love jump racing, and I'm passionate about The National, but this afternoons fiasco, was a disgraceful display of total incompetence, at the start.

AP fell from his horse, the whole field was geed up, getting cold and waiting around was doing little to calm horses or riders, the tape attaching system looked like it had been designed by a group of boy scouts, the struggle to re-attach it did little to calm the nerves of the waiting jockeys, and as for the safety improvements to the course, they worked, didn't they?

I'm not involved in racing, I never have been, and I'm more than happy to be corrected by the experienced.

Question 1. Over a course of 4.5 miles, what is the point of a starters tap? To be certain of a level start? That's the responsibility of the jockey.

Question 2. 5-10 years ago, the starts at the Grand Prixs, were always a dash to the first corner, with predictable results. F1 drivers have learned that it's generally a 50+ lap race. Jockeys need to learn that the National is a very long, the longest race, and look at the replays, and see where the first 4 horses came from, way back in the field, so as...

Question 3. why is being in the very best position at the first fence so vital.

Racing is doing little to help itself, I'm sorry to say.

Well done to the winner, a brilliant ride.

Alec.

Some very good points indeed Alec