Grand National meeting.

teapot said:
Given jockeys occasionally struggle to follow the course, jump the wrong fence etc, you’d have to have to a fool proof system in place if you wanted to start telling individual jocks to pull up from 30mph. Who makes the decision? Who protects that person from owners and trainers?


As an aside re pulling up, for those who don’t know - they had spotters around the entire Badminton course in 2024 who could relay back to the ground jury any concerns. When it was announced at the riders meeting it did not go down well! Needless to say though it worked as the xc was pretty much a success. Probably helped that the spotters were respected named in the sport…
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Lets hope the 2025 spotters watch Mr Townend and his 18 year old, multiple championship winning faithful and honest servant very carefully this year. I find it very distasteful when old champions are asked again and again.
 
teapot said:
Given jockeys occasionally struggle to follow the course, jump the wrong fence etc, you’d have to have to a fool proof system in place if you wanted to start telling individual jocks to pull up from 30mph. Who makes the decision? Who protects that person from owners and trainers?


As an aside re pulling up, for those who don’t know - they had spotters around the entire Badminton course in 2024 who could relay back to the ground jury any concerns. When it was announced at the riders meeting it did not go down well! Needless to say though it worked as the xc was pretty much a success. Probably helped that the spotters were respected named in the sport…
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See I was thinking that by taking the decision out of their hands that keeps them ok with trainer/owner and stewards for not riding out, it would absolutely have to be someone that knew their stuff though.

Reynold why do you think earpieces are not practical? Other than making sure they couldn’t be hacked.
 
Gallop_Away said:
Not whataboutery at all. You talk about our "right" to do this to horses and I asked you the questions as to what "right" we have to ride horses at all. You can bleat whataboutery if you want, but it is a relevant question in my opinion. Dressage finds itself under high scrutiny since the CD incident. What "right" have we to expect horses to perform unnatural movements for our amusement? What "rights" do we have to expect horses to jump 7ft puissance walls for our entertainment? What right have we to sit on a living breathing creature for our own amusement?
You can choose not to answer the question if you wish but please don't simply try and dodge an uncomfortable topic with the cop out of whataboutery 🙄
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None.

None none none none none none none.

None.

This is not a biblical age, we do not have biblical dominion over the animals, only power, which we misuse.

Maybe it's time it stopped, because I'm absolutely sure that we can't trust anything with money and prestige as its goals to create the right environment for riding horses competitively. And I'm equally sure that if we didn't know about horses and found the species on a remote and previously unknown island, the last thing anyone who cared about animals would think of doing would be to ride them.
.
 
ycbm said:
None.

None none none none none none none.

None.

This is not a biblical age, we do not have biblical dominion over the animals, only power, which we misuse.

Maybe it's time it stopped, because I'm absolutely sure that we can't trust anything with money and prestige as its goals to create the right environment for riding horses competitively. And I'm equally sure that if we didn't know about horses and found the species on a remote and previously unknown island, the last thing anyone who cared about animals would think of doing would be to ride them.
.
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Given the further scrutiny the equine world finds itself facing, a day may come sooner than we may think, where all equine sports come to an end. Perhaps I am a hypocrite but if this happens in my lifetime, I will be sad to see the day that these events, including racing, are stopped.
 
Burnttoast said:
But that is racing. You can't be ok with the actual racing (as it stands) and but not with the awful background stuff, because that's where the races come from. The overbreeding (and the line breeding) is necessary to get those freak individuals that people get so excited about and to maintain 'standards'. The ones that don't make the grade are an inevitable corollary of that. So are the ones that end up breaking, often, as line breeding concentrates weaknesses as well as strengths - look at ECVM, for example - rife in TBs and horses with TB in them. And, as often pointed out, it costs money to get a horse on the ground and to the age of 3 or 4 and no one wants to spend that money when they could be making it (or at least getting some fun out of it).
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I wrote that wrong, what I mean is I'm ok with the act of racing itself (any race, not the GN) - we all know horses enjoy racing each other while hacking, hunting etc. Racing as an industry, not happy with and absolutely find it cruel (as with many equine sports where lots of money is involved). Apologies.
 
To answer ester above - I don't think earpieces would work for many reasons such as volume of noise from the crowds and following vehicles, plus such factors as wind noise and noise from camera drones.

There is also the issue of cleanliness with 'official' earpieces having to be cleaned before being used by another jockey. There is also the possibility of them actually falling out during a jumps race (or later a jockey having claimed it has fallen out). Let alone malicious hacking of earpiece communication.

If, as I suggested above, the penalties for continuing to push a tired horse were increased substantially then jockeys should start to consider pulling up and living (!) to fight another day if there is any doubt of the horse's ability to continue.

As it stands at the moment the current penalty structure seems to give almost as much of a penalty to failing to ride out/non-trier (which only really effects those who have bet on that horse) as it does to riding a horse to exhaustion (and in this case causing it to die).
 
I’m feeling quite sad that that poor horse who has since died has clearly had a rough last few hours/days of his life.

I’m becoming more and more against the national. Putting horses into a sport knowing there’s a high probability of them being injured/killed/harmed is pretty barbaric really.
And all so that humans can bet on them and win money.
We really are a vile species.
 
We either accept the fact that domesticated animals do have an unnatural life that includes both the positives and negatives of that existence or we stop domesticating them.

Obviously no one wants to see any animal pushed to its limits for entertainment and lessons need to be learnt. However the level of abuse that the jockey has had is not acceptable, he made the decision to pull up too late but at fence 29 he was in contention and by fence 30 his horse had nothing left. If we changed the rules to allow for an external third party to instruct them to pull up then the probability is that it would not have come any sooner and you would then then take away the jockeys ability to make the call.
 
scats said:
I’m feeling quite sad that that poor horse who has since died has clearly had a rough last few hours/days of his life.

I’m becoming more and more against the national. Putting horses into a sport knowing there’s a high probability of them being injured/killed/harmed is pretty barbaric really.
And all so that humans can bet on them and win money.
We really are a vile species.
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I can't watch it any more. Went to Aintree once and was horrified by how big the fences are. Spent the whole time praying that there wouldn't be am injuries and didn't really enjoy it (plus it was bitterly cold).

So much money tied up in the gambling though and I think that's what makes it different from other equestrian sports. In no other sport would you get a formal telling off for not riding hard enough.
 
The horse was faltering over the 2nd last but was pushed on to jump the last and then collapsed.

Yes, I do know CC that earpieces are now small.

As another comparison to the pitiful ban Nolan was given of 10 days (and should be increased now the poor horse has died) the flat jockey Nicola Currie was given a 39 day ban last week for cumulative whip offences, the last one for being 1 strike over the limit.

Earlier this week, the Scottish rider Nicola Currie got hit with a massive 39-day suspension under the BHA's totting-up rules. Currie didn't make excuses, but admitted to a win-at-all-costs attitude that hardly tallies with claims about the modern whip being little more than some tickling stick.28 Mar 2025

None of the horses she hit too many times died....
 
Trot_on said:
I wrote that wrong, what I mean is I'm ok with the act of racing itself (any race, not the GN) - we all know horses enjoy racing each other while hacking, hunting etc. Racing as an industry, not happy with and absolutely find it cruel (as with many equine sports where lots of money is involved). Apologies.
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Fair enough - but I think we are even misinterpreting this. The old joke about the hiker saying to his companion 'I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you' applies very much to horses - they run in a group because evolution has made them that way, because they were running from a threat, and the slow one got eaten. It's known that horses' adrenaline levels rise the faster they go. In the wild/at liberty they run only as far as they think necessary before stopping to reassess the threat level but if one keeps going they all will, as a rule. I don't think it's possible to say they're enjoying it even if it looks carefree to us.
 
Fred66 said:
We either accept the fact that domesticated animals do have an unnatural life that includes both the positives and negatives of that existence or we stop domesticating them.

Obviously no one wants to see any animal pushed to its limits for entertainment and lessons need to be learnt. However the level of abuse that the jockey has had is not acceptable, he made the decision to pull up too late but at fence 29 he was in contention and by fence 30 his horse had nothing left. If we changed the rules to allow for an external third party to instruct them to pull up then the probability is that it would not have come any sooner and you would then then take away the jockeys ability to make the call.
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Your first para is a bit unclear - do you mean we carry on as now with no exceptions or alterations or improvements, or just stop breeding all domestic horses? Just a black and white choice? Because we could choose to make enormous changes that would accentuate the positives and not ask horses who can't consent not to risk their lives or suffer lasting physical or mental trauma as a result of their association with us. I know most people couldn't bring themselves to choose that which says a lot about them I guess.
 
The jockeys are grown men and women, most of them with years experience working and riding horses.

They are far from stupid, they don't need someone to tell them to pull up when a horse is exhausted, they know when the horse is tired.

They know but they keep going for the price money, the fame of completing the GN, the trainers and owners orders...

And a 10 days ban is nothing to them, comparing to finish the GN.

Celèbre d'Allen was 125/1 so with no chances at all but if he finished in the last 15 without collapsing of exhaustion , it would have been very pleasing to the owner and trainer.....

A victory in itself......
 
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Burnttoast said:
Your first para is a bit unclear - do you mean we carry on as now with no exceptions or alterations or improvements, or just stop breeding all domestic horses? Just a black and white choice? Because we could choose to make enormous changes that would accentuate the positives and not ask horses who can't consent not to risk their lives or suffer lasting physical or mental trauma as a result of their association with us. I know most people couldn't bring themselves to choose that which says a lot about them I guess.
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Not meaning to put words in Fred's mouth here but I don't think that's what they meant (and I think you know that very well too 😉) .
No one is disagreeing that horse welfare should always come first but with equestrian sports there is no way to eliminate the risks completely. In racing, there will be injuries from falls or misteps, a cross country horse can also have horrific falls over fences, a dressage horses can sustain soft tissue and ligament injuries, happy hackers could be struck by cars on the road, a horse in a field with other horses could be kicked in the wrong place and need to be pts.....
The very fact that we domesticate and ride these animals carries risk. Whilst we can of course do our utmost to limit it, as of course we should, it is impossible to eliminate it completely.
 
Gallop_Away said:
Not meaning to put words in Fred's mouth here but I don't think that's what they meant (and I think you know that very well too 😉) .
No one is disagreeing that horse welfare should always come first but with equestrian sports there is no way to eliminate the risks completely. In racing, there will be injuries from falls or misteps, a cross country horse can also have horrific falls over fences, a dressage horses can sustain soft tissue and ligament injuries, happy hackers could be struck by cars on the road, a horse in a field with other horses could be kicked in the wrong place and need to be pts.....
The very fact that we domesticate and ride these animals carries risk. Whilst we can of course do our utmost to limit it, as of course we should, it is impossible to eliminate it completely.
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Can you imagine the outrage if an Eventer collapsed, despite it being obvious it was suffering?
 
Gallop_Away said:
Not meaning to put words in Fred's mouth here but I don't think that's what they meant (and I think you know that very well too 😉) .
No one is disagreeing that horse welfare should always come first but with equestrian sports there is no way to eliminate the risks completely. In racing, there will be injuries from falls or misteps, a cross country horse can also have horrific falls over fences, a dressage horses can sustain soft tissue and ligament injuries, happy hackers could be struck by cars on the road, a horse in a field with other horses could be kicked in the wrong place and need to be pts.....
The very fact that we domesticate and ride these animals carries risk. Whilst we can of course do our utmost to limit it, as of course we should, it is impossible to eliminate it completely.
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Well no, I don't know what they meant, which is why I asked. There are plenty of people who have no problem with how things are at the moment and some who doubtless hark back to a golden era when animal welfare was barely a thing.

It's possible to eliminate most of these risks by not taking part in these activities - we're not obliged to ride horses or to compete them just because they're domesticated. Riding and competing them, and keeping them in the ways we often do to allow us to ride and compete them, causes a lot of physical and mental problems for many individuals that could have been avoided by simply not doing those things. I don't think mentioning field accidents in the same breath as injuries sustained as a result of overstrain, repetitive strain or poor judgement/riding at the hands of riders is hugely helpful, although a lot of field accidents are also the result of mismanagement by people. I'm happy to come out and say I find equestrian sport so un-horse-friendly that to me it's unacceptable, both in terms of acute risk to life and limb and in the ways they're trained, managed and kept.
 
tristars said:
BHA announces a post mortem for celebre d allen
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I would be very interested to hear the results. He was well enough to travel home quite promptly and I am not sure what long term effects heat exhaustion may have so I've been pondering what the cause of death could have been.
 
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This whole debate raises some interesting questions.

How many times, on this forum, do people advise or support the PTS of a horse who is no longer useful to his owner? The 'my horse can't be ridden any more, I can only afford to keep one horse but I really want to ride' scenario.
The vast majority of posters happily support PTS of an un-saleable horse in this situation, even if the horse would be happy and pain free as a field ornament.

I think that more people view horses as 'disposable' than would care to admit to it.

Edited to add I'm not judging anyone who has made this decision, it's a position I would hate to be in. Luckily I have my own land and am able to keep out unridden retirees without too much financial hardship.
 
Celebre D’Allen was travelled a short distance away from Aintree to a local livery yard. The idea being, I think, to let him recover more before travelling him home. Presumably that is where he was taken ill again.

It was a very, very sore Broadway Boy who was travelled the 150 miles home the day after the race. He is unsurprisingly reported to still be very sore today. But at least the poor beggar survived the journey and is still alive. He needs further investigations to find out why he is in so much discomfort.
 
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Burnttoast said:
Well no, I don't know what they meant, which is why I asked. There are plenty of people who have no problem with how things are at the moment and some who doubtless hark back to a golden era when animal welfare was barely a thing.

It's possible to eliminate most of these risks by not taking part in these activities - we're not obliged to ride horses or to compete them just because they're domesticated. Riding and competing them, and keeping them in the ways we often do to allow us to ride and compete them, causes a lot of physical and mental problems for many individuals that could have been avoided by simply not doing those things. I don't think mentioning field accidents in the same breath as injuries sustained as a result of overstrain, repetitive strain or poor judgement/riding at the hands of riders is hugely helpful, although a lot of field accidents are also the result of mismanagement by people. I'm happy to come out and say I find equestrian sport so un-horse-friendly that to me it's unacceptable, both in terms of acute risk to life and limb and in the ways they're trained, managed and kept.
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I was simply making the point that by domesticating and keeping horses, puts them at risk, even by management or circumstances.
However other than doing our best to minimise the risk, I'm not sure what the answer is? If horses stopped being bred for riding and equine sports, they would likely not be bred at all. Some might argue that's better. I will admit that I personally would be very sad to no longer have the privilege of riding these beautiful intelligent animals.
 
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