Happy Days For ISH Breeders

Eothain said:
The ID as a breed is dead to me. We should be bound not to the past but to the future.

Once the ISH studbook reaches #1 again in the WBFSH rankings, then the ends will have justified the means.
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And then along comes Lenamore (again!) to prove the true worth of the RID x! Still sound and winning Burghley at 17 years of age! Methinks you risk throwing baby out with the bathwater!:rolleyes:

Let's LOOK at the WBFSH rankings - for eventing:

No 2: Jumbo - by an RID stallion (Skippy, in case you'd forgotten)
No.4: Cruising - by an RID stallion called -let me see - Sea Crest (also sire of Lenamore and goodness knows how many others!) And 26th on the World Rankings.

One MIGHT suggest that Cruising and Sea Crest are two stallions who have more than done their bit for the WBFSH rankings! Add Errigal Flight and more than a few others ....

Maybe itwill be their daughters - put to Warmbloods or TBs - who will get Ireland to the top of the WBFSH rankings - will you then credit the ID part of the pedigree, or put it all down to a WB sire??
 
Seacrest, the Irish Draught that goes back to the great thoroughbred Arctic Que?

Yes, the best Irish Draughts, that wonderfully pure breed have a thoroughbred cross in them.

So, tell me, where's Sea Crest's replacement or did the pure bred snobbery of ID breeders wound it?

Fatally I'd say
 
Let's not forget great Irish Draught horses like Ginger Dick and Pride Of Shaunlara, they produced some fantastic horses but they're hardly purebred. As soon as purebred snobbery got it's teeth in and that silly Appendix Irish Draught scheme took off and Thoroughbred's weren't as commonly seen in ID pedigrees as they once were, the ID usefulness nosedived.

One of the best ID horses around today is Crosstown Dancer, here's a link to his pedigree. None of that purebred nonsense. Plently of thoroughbred in the pedigree and as a result, it's not uncommon to find him listed as a damsire in our young horse classes.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/crosstown+dancer

Then again, what would it matter, our young horses are sooo terribly produced that no one would want them.

You'd be better served boasting of the ID link to the Silver Medallist in the 6 Year Old World Championships, Drummiler Lough

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/drumiller+lough

Of course, you can if you'd like ignore the Dutch and Thoroughbred crosses in his pedigree but you wouldn't want to do that, would you Janet? I mean, why ignore the truth?
 
I have to say for performance that I agree with you Eothain a good dash of TB is necessary. How ever would the ID be higher up the WBFSH ranks if it's breeding had been more regulated and if the Irish had realised what they had along time before they did??

If you look through the pedigree of Drummiler Lough on both sides then you will notice that it peters out on the ID side between 50 and 100 years ago where on the sires side you can trace most of the lines back to at least 1800! On the sires side you can see a regular dollop of TB and Arab throughout the ages especially further back when they were put to the draught type mares to refine, essentially the WB is 50-100 yrs ahead of the ID in its breeding, add to that that they have thousands of mare and thousands of breeders and you are bound to be playing catch up.

For the ID whether that be TBX or not to have two stallions in the top ten is no mean feat when you study the numbers!! :)
 
Eothain said:
Let's not forget great Irish Draught horses like Ginger Dick and Pride Of Shaunlara, they produced some fantastic horses but they're hardly purebred. As soon as purebred snobbery got it's teeth in and that silly Appendix Irish Draught scheme took off and Thoroughbred's weren't as commonly seen in ID pedigrees as they once were, the ID usefulness nosedived.
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Eothain - I think you're contrdicting yourself here. That "silly AID scheme" is the way TBs have been kept in the ID pedigree - we still have a couple of RID stallions left who are quarter TB - and there is scope for the numbers to increase with the new grading up scheme introduced by HSI. How is that 'pure-bred snobbery'??

One of the best ID horses around today is Crosstown Dancer, here's a link to his pedigree. None of that purebred nonsense. Plently of thoroughbred in the pedigree and as a result, it's not uncommon to find him listed as a damsire in our young horse classes.
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A great horse indeed - but not a GREAT example of your point. You need to look 4 generations back for ONE TB in Crosstown Dancer's pedigree - and of course he's linebred to the great Galty Boy who - even in 1922 - doesn't show full TB until 4th generation.

You'd be better served boasting of the ID link to the Silver Medallist in the 6 Year Old World Championships, Drummiler Lough

Of course, you can if you'd like ignore the Dutch and Thoroughbred crosses in his pedigree but you wouldn't want to do that, would you Janet? I mean, why ignore the truth?
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What IS the truth?? That a very well bred European Warmblood put to a well bred ID SH mare can produce a top class competition horse? Why on EARTH would I argue with that? There are MANY examples of this sort of cross producing outstanding horses - I have one in my own yard which hopefully will prove to be outstanding (by Lombardo - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lombardo7) out of an Errigal Flight mare.

Of course there's no pure-bred snobbery in the KWPN -which should probably be described as a 'type' rther than a breed. Lombardo - while graded KWPN - is by a Selle Francais stallion (arguably THE Selle Francais stallion:D) and out of a KWPN graded mare who was by a Holstein stallion out of a half TB mare!

And HSI is taking the ISH the same way - and good luck. I sure don't have a problem with that. I breed primarily pure-bred IDs - because that's where my interest lies - but I also breed ID SH horses (by the RID out of TB and TB cross mares.) But I'm NOT aiming at the top competition horse market - if I was, I'd probably be putting my ID SH mares to a Warmblood!

Do I think the pure ID still has a role in competition horse breeding? Yes - but possibly not so much in the first cross - except for eventing.

Seacrest, the Irish Draught that goes back to the great thoroughbred Arctic Que?
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Yep - Arctic Que is there - 4 generations back. But he's also line-bred to Kildare and Brehon Law - both RIDS - and both with a dash of TB. So wht's 'silly' about the AID scheme then?? :rolleyes:
 
Eothain said:
Yes, the best Irish Draughts, that wonderfully pure breed have a thoroughbred cross in them.

So, tell me, where's Sea Crest's replacement or did the pure bred snobbery of ID breeders wound it?

Fatally I'd say
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You DO have a bee in your bonnet about 'pure bred snobbery', don't you?? I don't understand your problem. A 'pure bred' is - by definition - relatively 'pure'. Yes, the TB has been used in the ID over MANY years and it's hard to find an RID that doesn't have SOME TB in his/her pedigree. It was introduced for good reason - genetic diversity being one - and improving 'quality' and 'athleticism' being another. It hasn't ALWAYS been completely positive - the downside is loss of bone judging by most of the RID stallions graded in Ireland this year.

There ARE breeders here in the UK who oppose any more TB in the RID (they LIKE their clunky 'traditional' sorts :rolleyes: - but most of us appreciate the value of modest infusions of TB blood. I have one AID mare, and her full sister faces the Inspectors next Tuesday. The one AID has already had a foal to an RID stallion and he's a corker - plenty of bone but just that extra little bit of 'quality' around the head and neck which is often lacking in the more 'traditional' pure-breds.

As for Sea Crest's replacement, I think there are some waiting in the wings - it takes time for them to prove themselves. One might be Grange Bouncer (and yes, I KNOW he goes back to The Tetrarch!) But of course their rise to fame is NOT helped by the tendency of SOME Irish breeders to be remarkably sloppy about paperwork! I have a stunning Irish-bred sport horse here at present - who definitely has top eventing potential - his 'breeding' is written in pencil on a basic 'identity' passport. I'm inclined to believe he IS out of a Grange Bouncer mare - having owned a Grange Bouncer gelding - but if this chap ever does make it to the top, his breeding won't be recognised! :rolleyes:
 
Janet, did you read anything that was at the beginning of this thread? Or did you just jump in headlong hoping to frustrate me in to submission? This was an upbeat topic with loads of different contributors. They're all gone because this has gone on too long and it has lost it's lustre.

The whole idea of this was to point out to Irish breeders on the forum that some wonderful horses such as Cumano, Couleur Rubin, Andiamo, Cento, Levisto Z, Painted Black, Arko III and Montender had been approved for use by AI by the HSI. It was happy days that those of us who see the big picture could now use these horses to try and breed the superstars of the future who would return the ISH to the top of the WBFSH rankings in showjumping while the likes of Kings Master, Ghareeb, Cult Hero and Carrick Diamond Lad to name but a few, would continue to be used to keep our place at the top of the WBFSH rankings for Eventing.

Now you may wonder what I mean when I talk about the big picture. The WBFSH rankings is the big picture. For breeders like myself, breeding horses who can contribute to their studbook's position is the only show in town. Only the top 6 horses from each book are counted so it's a pretty elite bunch we're talking about.

Grange Bouncer has already been discussed at length, I'm not getting in to that again, I'll just say that to fill Sea Crest's shoes he'd want to have a lot more horses doing a lot more in competition. It's too late for him.

The AID scheme was silly because 3 of the 4 grandparents had to be RID. It was only ever a trickle of blood being let in. The HSI's grade up register will amount to much of the same thing. What's more, under the AID scheme only fillies were allowed be registered so in turn, the amount of blood entering the breed was minimal. Is bone really the be all and end all?

Through this entire thread, I've been very clear on my views on what's required for Ireland to cover the three bases that need to be covered for us to be able to produce horses for every sphere at every level. It's not beyond doing but I'm sick of hearing how the ID x TB cross can cut it in modern day showjumping. They can't. Simple as that. If they could, we wouldn't be where we are. Three of Europe's finest gave a breeding seminar at the RDS and struggled to say complimentary things about our jumpers. They might have used our best in the past but either way, that's the past and we need their best going forward. It's time for us to use the fruits of their labour to upgrade our own. Nobody would bat an eyelid if somebody used a French thoroughbred on a mare so what's wrong with using a French sport horse on one?

The reason I'm so down on some ID breeders is because the night the HSI unveiled the new breeding plan at our regional meeting, the conduct of the ID folk was absolutely appalling. The members of the Irish Draught co-op were there in Athlone that night were particularily disgraceful. I said after that night, I'd have nothing to do with breeders who were stuck in the past. One English woman was in the middle of them that night and told me afterwards that she actually feared for her safety because they were throwing such a strop that the ID was getting a grade system. It was pathetic to witness.

Janet, you've said a lot in your posts here without actually saying anything. It's been all spin. No mention of your view on policy for ID or ISH to create a scenario that will lead to long term competitiveness and economic viability. This whole thread has been about creating a vibrant Sport Horse sector in Ireland. You seem concerned that we'll ignore the leisure market and grass roots. If you took the time to research what I've said here, then you'd see how I gave a robust account of how I feel that sector would still be protected going forward.

This thread has been ruined in my opinion. I'm asking you though to please please say something of substance if you reply again.
 
Eothain said:
Janet, you've said a lot in your posts here without actually saying anything. It's been all spin. No mention of your view on policy for ID or ISH to create a scenario that will lead to long term competitiveness and economic viability. This whole thread has been about creating a vibrant Sport Horse sector in Ireland. You seem concerned that we'll ignore the leisure market and grass roots. If you took the time to research what I've said here, then you'd see how I gave a robust account of how I feel that sector would still be protected going forward.

This thread has been ruined in my opinion. I'm asking you though to please please say something of substance if you reply again.
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You ARE an arrogant young pup, aren't you! Thankfully, this is HHO - NOT Eothain's private blog, and your opinion of other people's contribution is yours - and doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. I've read everything you've said here - and I've actually agreed with you on a lot of points. And I shall continue to post on ANY thread I wish to -even if you don't agree!:rolleyes:

Oe point I should make clear - I actually don't CARE how Ireland choses to produce its sport horses. In fact, if Ireland stops producing the good, 'old-fashioned' Irish Sport Horses based on the IDxTB that will be good news for British breeders - already many of the British buyers who used to source their 'Irish' sport horses in Ireland are now buying them closer to home.

For what it's worth, I think Ireland will struggle to take the Germans, French and Dutch breeders 'on' because they have been doing the job well for a lot of years and have a big head start. Ireland's strength has always been in the Eventer/hunter type - the TBxID(in varying proportions). The best were World class eventers, and the rest had good outlets as hunters, show horses, lower level competition horses. Of course, a lot of Irish breeders didn't help themselves - there are still a LOT of Irish bred horses outon the World stage - with bu**er all breeding recorded to PROVE they're ISH. If Ireland was credited with just half these horses, you'd be back up the list. Hell, even when a sire and dam are 'properly' recorded, they aren't always right - a friend bought an Irish-bred 'eligible RID' mare recently - and it fell at the first hurdle when DNA proved it was NOT by the stallion shown on her pssport. I would suggest that poor breeding practice of this sort is probably more to blame for Ireland's drop on the World Rankings than the poor old Irish Draught is (but he's a useful whipping boy!)

The AID scheme was silly because 3 of the 4 grandparents had to be RID. It was only ever a trickle of blood being let in. The HSI's grade up register will amount to much of the same thing. What's more, under the AID scheme only fillies were allowed be registered so in turn, the amount of blood entering the breed was minimal. Is bone really the be all and end all?
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UM - that's not silly - that's called establishing 'type'. The Irish Draught is a (more or less) pure breed- a 'foundation' breed. If you allowed larger infusions of TB you'd have a horse that was indistinguishable from an ISH - and of NO interest to people who like Irish Draughts. And yes, AID fillies can produce RID daughters - and those RID daughters can produce RID stallions that re 1/8th TB - that's enough! It was the higher % of TB blood in some ID stallions that led to deterioration in bone - and the shameful ID gradings in Ireland this year!

Put as much TB/WB into the ISH as you want - after all, it's a 'type' rather than a breed. Would you want Connemara breeders to start introducing large dollops of TB into them - and calling them pure-bred Connemaras?? The TBxConnemara makes a super (smaller) sport horse - but it's NOT a Connemara!

The reason I'm so down on some ID breeders is because the night the HSI unveiled the new breeding plan at our regional meeting, the conduct of the ID folk was absolutely appalling.
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Perhaps that's because the ID breeders in Ireland are sick of HSI's heavy-handed control of the studbook, the gradings,etc etc. The UK and American ID breeders aren't too impressed either! It is ridiculous that Irish Draught breeders in the UK and USA (and Australia, New Zealand etc) are being dictated to by an Irish quango whose primary purpose is to put Irish bred SPORT horses onto the World Rankings Tables!

Irish Draught breeders breed Irish Draughts because they LIKE Irish Draughts! If they WANTED to breed world class competition horses then they'd be breeding Selle Francais, or Holstein, or their own national 'brand' of Warmblood!

Time will tell whether HSI's approach will produce an Irish SH/WB that will match/better the results Ireland had with the ID SH in the past. And whether it will prove more financially rewarding. But maybe you'll need to plan on eating the ones who don't make the grade (as happens in many European countries!) Because I don't think UK buyers will be as quick to buy up your 'also-rans' as they were to buy up the ID sport horses.:D
 
Quote "For what it's worth, I think Ireland will struggle to take the Germans, French and Dutch breeders 'on' because they have been doing the job well for a lot of years and have a big head start. Ireland's strength has always been in the Eventer/hunter type - the TBxID(in varying proportions)." I am confused by this term "always been in the Eventer/hunter type" as Ireland was producing Olympic show jumpers, & was known for producing top quality show jumpers.

I dont see what the problem is here one is trying to produce the top end of the show jumping market, therefore their breeding strategy will differ from those breeding for the lower end of the market. It is not just Irish breeders who have been appaling at keeping records or even registering their stock, the UK hobby breeders are in the same league. As has been mentioned in the past competition formats have changed, a horse that might have won round Hickstead maynot get close now. Because back in the day, cups were deeper, poles heavier, courses not so technical. If you are loosing market share you dont just carry on regardless, you look at your competitors to see what they are doing differently.
 
Arrogant? I've never been called that before, though I have been called worse! All I'm trying to do is figure out what exactly you're saying. I see your point about the leisure market but I think you're missing out the point about international success. I'm not trying to argue with you or fall out with you.

As for the ID breeders, well they proved they can't manage the ID studbook without having a silly petty row. The HSI are the only ones fit to look after the studbook.
 
Eothain said:
Arrogant? I've never been called that before, though I have been called worse! All I'm trying to do is figure out what exactly you're saying. I see your point about the leisure market but I think you're missing out the point about international success. I'm not trying to argue with you or fall out with you.
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What I suppose I'm saying is that not EVERY horse bred can be an International star - and there are a LOT more buyers for nice sensible hunter/all-rounder types than there are for International competition horses. Ireland DID excel at producing a 'type' - the I(D)SH - that could go to either end - if it wasn't a top competition prospect it was hardy and sensible enough to be a good hunter/all-rounder/low-level competion horse. So the BEST youngsters made top money - and the average youngsters still made good money!

The top WB competition types don't ALWAYS breed top WB competition types - the also-rans are often 'wastage' (as in racing!!) The failed competion horse is often too 'sharp' for the amateur rider (and not many UK foxhunters will TOUCH a WB for hunting.)

If/when Ireland deserts the horse that put them on the map - the I(D)SH - renowned for its toughness, its ability to find a 5th leg across country, and its sensible temperament - do Irish breeders think the Germans/French/Dutch will be racing to buy the 'new' ISH?? Why on earth should they - when that's what they ALREADY have at home, by the tens of thousands. And even if the market is there for the top 10%, what about the other 90%?

As for the ID breeders, well they proved they can't manage the ID studbook without having a silly petty row. The HSI are the only ones fit to look after the studbook.
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Actually, the Irish ID breeders MIGHT have proved they can't agree - but they've never had control of the stud book. As for HSI being 'fit' to look after it, that is a moot point! Most ID breeders around the world would disagree with you - including me!
 
Happy Days!
NLS Cool al Clover by Aldatus Z and Dax van Dabdijhoeve by Desir Du Chateau win the world championship for 6 and 7 year olds at Lanaken.

Both Aldatus Z and Desir Du Chateau stand in Ireland.
 
You know, I was wondering why my last comment hadn't been replied to, turns out my last reply got chewed up in cyberspace! Hmmm, annoying.

It was a great result for the ISH at Lanaken. NLS Coole Al Clover really pulled that result out of the bag, didn't see it coming! He's a stallion too so he'll surely get an approval now!!!

Ballypatrick Mystique finished 3rd in the 7 year olds was a brilliant result too. It's great that our reigning National 7 Year Old Champion could get a result like that. It goes to show the level of showjumping in Ireland is as good as will be found anywhere. The HSI Showjumping League has done wonders for young horse production.

Also, because of Ballypatrick Mystique, I'm definately using Heritage Fortunus on a mare next year. What a fantastic stallion.

Is the ISH coming back?
 
BallyshanHorses said:
As far as I know Cobra had the winner of the 5yr old consolation class as well so not bad for Irish BASED stallions.
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Lissava's resident stallions Cobra and Manhattan had good results, i lifted this straight off their facebook page

Cobra is sire of the winner of the 5 year old consolation class at World Breeding Championships in Lanaken, Belgium, yesterday, and Manhattan sired the 5 year old in 3rd place! Also another Cobra qualified for the 5 year old championship final today and another Manhattan qualified for the 7 year old championship final today!!
 
Eothain said:
It was a great result for the ISH at Lanaken. NLS Coole Al Clover really pulled that result out of the bag, didn't see it coming! He's a stallion too so he'll surely get an approval now!!!
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I have heard a rumour he was sold shortly after for a nice 6 figure sum. To where I do not know, so he may not ever come back to get approved.
 
I want NLS Coole Al Clover for my mare next year!! I bet he will get lots of mares now that he is world champ!! Do you know his half brother Colonel Clover out of same dam is also a stallion and is competing in the irish army equitation school!!
 
E. you DO like your blinders don't you. What is done with Irish Draughts has nothing to do with your goals evidently...that is fine. Overt your eyes and don't watch but don't interfer with something you have no regard or interest in...the survival of the Irish Draught foundation. Add your warmbloods and TBs to the Connemaras and ISHs...omit Irish Draughts entirely...please...and essentially breed continental-like warmbloods in Ireland to compete with the top level of showjumping and pretend nothing else matters for the success of commercial breeders in Ireland. Hope that the very very small numbers of top level jumpers produced or even needed will keep all the home breeders afloat.

Ignore that you can't compete with modern day continental warmblood registries without the best level of horse producers, from breeders to young stock developers to mid level trainers to top level trainers to top level competitors unless you also improve...vastly improve...the level of riders and trainers in Ireland. The continental warmblood world no longer needs to come to Ireland for jumper prospects because they have incentives to stay in their own backyard. I am not talking about financial incentives here I am talking about their ease at being able to find competitive prospects without going anywhere.

Americans still need to import top level competitors because we also have no infrastructure to develop and present home bred horses ready to go in the ring. We are going to continental yards because we can look at more than a handful of horses ready to walk in the ring. They are not looking for prospects to import and develop themselves like they used to...they want horses ready to go, ready to jump...Irish horses are not presented ready to go in the mid to top level of jumping. It has nothing to do with the percentage of Irish Draught or the TB in the Irish Draught...perhaps it might have an edge if the sires are the same sires as are in use in the continent. It has to do with development of trained horse to re-sell. It is no longer enough to have started horses to re-sell...they can get finished horses on the continent. You will be competitive when they can get finished horses in Ireland.

The success of Irish Bred jumpers is pretty good considering the shear numbers of continental warmbloods that are bred to produce the number of jumpers needed. It is probably even better considering how few Irish bred horses receive an opportunity to be trained to top levels of jumping.

The world wants horses over the age of 4 years, well started, great temperaments, who jump safely and in good form, who are able to compete at some level...not necessarily the top level. The most successful repeat sales will be potential all purpose horses who have good gaits for dressage, a great gallop for eventing, a cheerful enthusiastic jump, and are easy to live with. None of the precludes them not also being top level jumpers...the fact of them being able to accomodate different levels of riders was the hallmark of the Irish Sport Horse...personally I think that was because of the Irish Draught horse but you can cross what you like to make that horse as it is your choice. I will concentrate of producing an athletic Irish Draught should you choose to include the Irish Draught in your crossbreeding...please dont get in my way as we have enough obsacles in Ireland. PatO
 
Ok, it's late I'm tired, I've read what your post a few times there and I'll get back with a proper argument again some time, just for the moment though, are you honestly telling me that we should just accept our lot and roll over and die? Just take our reputation and be happy with it? Continue to breed the happy hacker, bread and butter type family friends that everybody loves and adores that'll do everything that asked of it happily or should we do all that and try to provide horses for the kids coming off ponies who are looking for competitive horses to compete in big young rider classes? Should we not also attempt to have twenty horses in the top 200 like we had in 1992 instead of being happy with the 4 we have in it in 2010? Should we not also try to regain our position in the WBFSH studbook rankings? Should we not accept that our horses have weakpoints that we need to needle them out that prevent more of them from reaching the upper echelons of equestrian sport and accept that the ends justify the means?

How many ISHs are competing in the Showjumping section of the WEG? I can't find a list of horse and rider entries anywhere unfortunately. There's a considerable number competing in the Eventing section but for one reason or the other it's not as big a number as I would like to see. I'm quite sure it's less than the 18 that competed in the Olympics in 2008, I do hope I'm wrong though.

It has been my experience from stories I've heard that people will travel anywhere to find a horse that will compete at the level they want. I'd imagine, but maybe I'm wrong, that riders don't care if the horse they're sat on is by Cruising or Cumano or Cavalier once it does it's job. At the end of the day, not all well bred horses are superstars but all superstars are well bred. What does it matter if a horse that's out competing internationally representing the Irish Sport Horse stud book, is by Heritage Fortunus the Hannovarian stallion out of a mare by Cavalier Royale the Holsteiner? The end goal is to get buyers in here to buy our nice young horses which are ready to go on and compete. Big international championships like Lanaken, WEG, the Europeans and Olympics are our shop window. Buyers will travel to the countries which are well represented at these tournaments.

I guarantee you, that if we were able to provide horses for the retiring pony riders that could compete in the Chippison Spring Tour or any of those highly competitive young rider classes throughout the country then we, as a nation, would have a much larger pool of buyers every year from among ourselves. We need to stem the flow of money to other countries in Europe for horses to compete in classes between 1.10 and 1.40. We need that money to stay in Ireland and create an industry that will be economically viable and have money coming in from foreign buyers for our top end horses that will trickle down the levels and continually boost the Sector.

Absolutely you are correct that every body from the producers to breeders to pinhookers to trainers in Ireland need to up their game. There's an industry in Ireland that could be wonderful, one of the best in the world perhaps. We've the world's best thoroughbred industry, there's nothing except our own self depreciation and the shackles of tradition stopping us from having a Sport Horse sector that is every bit as good.

I feel like I'm going round in circles here and dancing with a new partner on every circle and being made to look like the bad guy when there is no bad guy here, just a frustration that no body screamed enough during our freefall in the 90s.

Without Cruising, who was indeed a traditionally bred ISH, we'd be in a far worse predicament than we are in terms of international performance. When our horse's were failing, he was the one who pulled us back up again. Hell, in the 2010 rankings the top 3 Irish Sport Horses have his blood. Flexible #25 and Mo Chroi #169 are by him and Fresh Direct Kalico Bay #120 (Who for some reason isn't listed an ISH) is out of a mare by him. Dorada #175 is by the SF stallion Harlequin Du Carel out of a Clover Hill dam.

It's also worth noting that for the first time since the WBFSH rankings began, that the ISH has not been #1 for Eventing. In 2010, we finish #2! Or as I like to refer to it when I finish second in a competition, first of the losers. Yay!

I agree though that horses in Ireland need to be prroduced better and be further along their career when they're presented for sale and they need to be produced in a cost effective way leading to cheaper horses for the buyer so they're not getting screwed. I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say that as a producer, I need to go away somewhere and improve myself so I can do a better job.

I'm not trying to slate Irish Draughts. I wish to state that for the record! I am not trying to run down the wonderful Irish Draught horse but I do think we've seen it's glory days come and go as a producer of top class athletes. I do know one thing for sure, if I was going out in the morning looking for a horse capable of keeping me safe and sound as a riding horse that would also travel anywhere out hunting then I'd search for a horse to be by an Irish Draught and out of a 1/2 bred or 3/4 Bred mare. From my own experiences, there's nothing better at going across the country behind a pack of hounds or in cross country competition or for people I teach who do Riding Club activities than a horse like that. It's just the right balance of common sense, blood, stamina and hardiness to do all that is asked of it.

I would also like to state, that it is my belief that if everybody tries to stop breeding those all rounders like what I've just described and focus on only breeding top level showjumpers or eventers, it'd be a huge mistake. I've no interest in breeding that type of horse but I believe it's extremely important that somebody breeds it because they're an integral part of the industry but are not horses which will commonly be seen in the future in big Grand Prix classes or Nations Cups.

I'm not the bad guy here, just trying to be open, maybe too open, in a forum where people can agree or disagree with my opinions, thoughts and beliefs. Breeding and showjumping are my life, my future, my passion, my hobby and my vocation. It's all I know or care about, that's why I give a damn about the future of breeding in Ireland. If I didn't think we as a country could punch above our weight once more and get back where we were before then I'd simply shut my big mouth, stop giving my opinion and just go and do my own thing.

I am NOT trying to belittle the Irish Draught horse

I apologise if any of that was incoherent or if it didn't make sense, but I'm fighting to keep my eyes open here. I had planned on stopping after the first paragraph ... ... ..!
 
Actually, before I forget, on those WBFSH rankings, World Cruise who is 6th highest ISH on the list of ISHs, is also a Cruising product! He's ranked at #399. On the Eventing side of things, #20 Ashdale Cruise Master and #52 Mr Cruise Control are also Cruising progeny. Making Cruising, the only Irish stallion to have 2 horses in the top 6 ISH on the list. Not a bad record eh?

Also, for you AES fans, #126 on the jumping rankings, Billy Congo is listed as having no studbook, sire or dam recorded meaning the AES didn't get any ranking points for him. Not good enough on the WBFSH behalf. Infact, for 2010 Billy Congo ties at #126 with Cornet Obolensky. That's a pretty impressive horse to be tied with!!!

Had the AES been able to count Billy Congo's points, the studbook would have ranked #23 and not #25 for showjumping.
 
Thanks. I'm just calling it like I see it. Maybe I shouldn't, I dont know.

On the subject of the AES studbook ranking, it seems I too made a mistake. I overlooked Ireland's WEG competitor, Tinka's Serenade!

She's ranked #28 in the world for 2010 with 925 points. Billy Congo got 520 points. #410 Dylano got 223 points. #893 Rimini 01 got 100 points. Cotton Candy T, ranked #2092 got 25 points and Luikka #2588 got 14 points. Bringing the correct AES total to 1807 points. This infact lifts the AES from #25 in the studbook rankings to #14 ahead of the Danish Warmblood.

If there's anybody here reading this, who knows how to contact the AES office, if I were you, I'd certainly be getting on to the WBFSH to correct their mistake. There's no point in being ranked nine places below where you should be!!!

Even if the ISH counted the 525 points of Fresh Direct Kalico Bay and dropped the 219 points of Irish Independent Echo Beach, it still wouldn't affect our placing. We'd still be ranked 9th in the world. Good to be back in the top ten though, long may it last!!!
 
Quote "Thanks. I'm just calling it like I see it. Maybe I shouldn't, I dont know" - Too right you should, this is an open forum. Your comments are not rude, I am sure I am not the only one interested in your views, in fact I know Im not.
 
we have always had the mare now we have stallions, look at the recent win at the wbc with an ish horse. Even though he was by a wb he still came first. This was the 1st time in 18 year and irish horse won so Irish mares crosses with wb must be doing something right. The main problem is that as a nation we dont push our horses enough in the right direction. We push them in hunting, and hacking but when it comes to showjumping we are very slow to enter a young horse in to the height they should be jumping..
 
Brian,

what height should our young horses be jumping and should they be going against the clock as 4yo and 5yo or should they be judged by competant judges on their ability without the speed? I feel that too much is being asked of imature horses in Ireland (3,4,and possibly 5yo) without them being allowed the chance to mature sufficently to enable their ability to be recognised and appreciated by the market in general. no 4yo horse should have anything to prove against the clock, time clases should have no bearing in a horses future career as a 4yo. just my thoughts for what its worth.
 
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