Have you ever just wanted to stop in the middle of a clinic/lesson?

[ycbm]

In what way did you change your training (to ride PREs) ?

I'll answer this by explaining why I had to sell my PRE. I found out that they need an inner stillness, when handing and riding, that some riders have naturally and people like me with ADHD will never attain. I felt a failure every day that I was unable to give her what she needed. Staying inwardly calm enough for her made riding work, not a pleasure. I could possibly have trained her to accept what I am, but I felt that would just shut down her nature. Lately I've seen a lot of people saying they can be trained to lift and move the way you would train a warmblood. And then I read a lot of people saying that PREs are "always unsound" and I link those two.

I obviously wouldn't agree that riding other horses is like wading through treacle, for me. I really enjoy horses who are fluid moving and give me a ton of feedback through my seat. With the noise in my brain I can't hear a horse who whispers.

On the other hand, I have never trained by pushing the horse up to the bridle and always preferred a light contact, so that does exist outside PRE riders too. Phillipe Karl advocates this approach (though I think he does take some stuff to extremes). His book "The Twisted Truth of Modern Dressage" is well worth a read.


PS, CC, I set my mare's canter transitions back a month or more by trying to teach her changes towards the boards.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I'll answer this by explaining why I had to sell my PRE. I found out that they need an inner stillness, when handing and riding, that some riders have naturally and people like me with ADHD will never attain. I felt a failure every day that I was unable to give her what she needed. Staying inwardly calm enough for her made riding work, not a pleasure. I could possibly have trained her to accept what I am, but I felt that would just shut down her nature. Lately I've seen a lot of people saying they can be trained to lift and move the way you would train a warmblood. And then I read a lot of people saying that PREs are "always unsound" and I link those two.

I obviously wouldn't agree that riding other horses is like wading through treacle, for me. I really enjoy horses who are fluid moving and give me a ton of feedback through my seat. With the noise in my brain I can't hear a horse who whispers.

On the other hand, I have never trained by pushing the horse up to the bridle and always preferred a light contact, so that does exist outside PRE riders too. Phillipe Karl advocates this approach (though I think he does take some stuff to extremes). His book "The Twisted Truth of Modern Dressage" is well worth a read.


PS, CC, I set my mare's canter transitions back a month or more by trying to teach her changes towards the boards.
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Yeah, that changes toward the boards thing is totally not productive for us. I'm not buying into "it must work" either.

It's just that some of these trainers get so set on this one exercise having to work, and it must work, no other option. I don't mind being strict or pushing myself and the horse, but this isn't that.

I think you can get the PRE to use its body, but you do have to be careful. I don't expect mine to move like a WB but he doesn't need a back like a board and legs moving like a sewing machine either

 

[Cortez]

I'll answer this by explaining why I had to sell my PRE. I found out that they need an inner stillness, when handing and riding, that some riders have naturally and people like me with ADHD will never attain. I felt a failure every day that I was unable to give her what she needed. Staying inwardly calm enough for her made riding work, not a pleasure. I could possibly have trained her to accept what I am, but I felt that would just shut down her nature. Lately I've seen a lot of people saying they can be trained to lift and move the way you would train a warmblood. And then I read a lot of people saying that PREs are "always unsound" and I link those two.

I obviously wouldn't agree that riding other horses is like wading through treacle, for me. I really enjoy horses who are fluid moving and give me a ton of feedback through my seat. With the noise in my brain I can't hear a horse who whispers.

On the other hand, I have never trained by pushing the horse up to the bridle and always preferred a light contact, so that does exist outside PRE riders too. Phillipe Karl advocates this approach (though I think he does take some stuff to extremes). His book "The Twisted Truth of Modern Dressage" is well worth a read.


PS, CC, I set my mare's canter transitions back a month or more by trying to teach her changes towards the boards.
.

This is stunningly honest and self aware. I must admit I was disappointed (but not surprised) when you sold your PRE, but you did absolutely the correct thing.

 

[ycbm]

This is stunningly honest and self aware. I must admit I was disappointed (but not surprised) when you sold your PRE, but you did absolutely the correct thing.

Thank you C, I really appreciate you saying that. I was disappointed in myself, but I am the way I am made and I was no good for her.
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[CanteringCarrot]

Thank you C, I really appreciate you saying that. I was disappointed in myself, but I am the way I am made and I was no good for her.
.

I agree with Cortez. I think it's good that you were honest with yourself about it and had that level of self awareness. While I naturally jive with the PRE, not everybody does, and that's fine. It's also respectable when someone can see it doesn't quite fit between them and a certain horse. I rather see that instead of a rider forcing themselves or the horse into some mold to make it work and one or both being frustrated or unhappy.

 

[View]

Some of the posts In this thread have been a light bulb moment for me. We had a gelding in the riding school with an unknown history, and had obviously been badly handled.

I clicked with him, and enjoyed riding him by myself. Often rode him in my lessons, and by heavens felt so disillusioned by them. He was so backwards and stiff in my lessons. I also taught others on him, and he always seemed to go much better for others.

I was sitting crying in the hay barn just before doing the final checks one night, when the owner found me and asked me what was wrong. I explained, and she reminded me that I should continue working with the combination I had on the day, and keep changing the method if it is not working.

She sacked the visiting senior instructor that night (I had just confirmed her suspicion). He was German and had only one method and one “tool” for each situation.

Horses are individuals and deserve to be treated as such. That’s why we need to be brave and say not the horse for me - or more truthfully, as YCBM did, I’m not the right rider for this horse.

And the gelding in the riding school? He was sold to one of our advanced clients and is thriving with his rider. I get a call two or three times a year when he needs some eyes from the ground or some different ideas to work through something.

 

[Mule]

I'll answer this by explaining why I had to sell my PRE. I found out that they need an inner stillness, when handing and riding, that some riders have naturally and people like me with ADHD will never attain. I felt a failure every day that I was unable to give her what she needed. Staying inwardly calm enough for her made riding work, not a pleasure. I could possibly have trained her to accept what I am, but I felt that would just shut down her nature. Lately I've seen a lot of people saying they can be trained to lift and move the way you would train a warmblood. And then I read a lot of people saying that PREs are "always unsound" and I link those two.

I obviously wouldn't agree that riding other horses is like wading through treacle, for me. I really enjoy horses who are fluid moving and give me a ton of feedback through my seat. With the noise in my brain I can't hear a horse who whispers.

On the other hand, I have never trained by pushing the horse up to the bridle and always preferred a light contact, so that does exist outside PRE riders too. Phillipe Karl advocates this approach (though I think he does take some stuff to extremes). His book "The Twisted Truth of Modern Dressage" is well worth a read.


PS, CC, I set my mare's canter transitions back a month or more by trying to teach her changes towards the boards.
.

That's very interesting about inward stillness. I doubt it's something that would ever occur to a person until they are in that situation.
I have found that lazy horses wind down with me. In contrast, some people manage to get them reasonably energetic. I've heard it called an electric arse. I think it describes it well.

 

[sbloom]

That's very interesting about inward stillness. I doubt it's something that would ever occur to a person until they are in that situation.
I have found that lazy horses wind down with me. In contrast, some people manage to get them reasonably energetic. I've heard it called an electric arse. I think it describes it well.

Yes and on the flip side is the "dead arse" where that quiet mind helps still the mind of the horse. I've never ridden an Iberian, I suspect I'd be like ycbm, having ADHD myself. It's good for us to learn to quiet our minds and some do accomplish it, but there's no point making ourselves miserable and potentially ending up with a very damaged horse and potentially ourselves.

 

[milliepops]

I have dead arse i think
I took a friend's horse hunting years ago, she was a hunt servant and couldn't ride him in the field but he was a total dobbin all day we always said she had an electric bum.

 

[shortstuff99]

I'm the opposite, I have an electric bum and mild ADHD, I prefer Iberians because they are quick and sharp enough to suit me rather then having a quieter horse.

 

[Roxylola]

I've always said I have a settling bottom as opposed to an electric one. I'm pretty good at being in the moment when I'm riding. I have to work quite hard if I need to hot something up a bit

 

[ycbm]

I'm the opposite, I have an electric bum and mild ADHD, I prefer Iberians because they are quick and sharp enough to suit me rather then having a quieter horse.

People with electric bums who rode my PRE when I had her up for sale made her act as if they had actually given her an electric shock. I had to tell two of them to get off, one within 20 metres, the other within 2 minutes. It was very embarrassing for all of us ?
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[shortstuff99]

People with electric bums who rode my PRE when I had her up for sale made her act as if they had actually given her an electric shock. I had to tell two of them to get off, one within 20 metres, the other within 2 minutes. It was very embarrassing for all of us ?
.

Ah well I like to think mine like it ? as while Potato never does anything bad for anyone she also just kind of does nothing. She even refuses to move for some people and others she just trots around ignoring them. If you know how to ride she will go nicely (maybe).

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I can't imagine most Iberians liking a hot seat/electric bum. That's only based off of my (limited) personal experience and opinion though. I would think it'd bring more tension into the equation, perhaps. In the case of my PRE it'd probably make him a bit tense, tight in his back, and more knee action/sewing machine mode (I don't find too much knee action desirable).


I just love the sensitivity and awareness of the Iberian. Mine is trained off of the smallest signals and my body language, it's just soo easy.

On the German note, sort of glad that I'm not the only one who has seen this one size fits all approach/style, and has experienced the German style in general. Makes me feel like I'm not so nuts after all.

I still have a question from my last lesson though...how can a horse, specially a PRE in my horses case, effectively use his hindend, and perform various movements in general with his head/poll at the same height or lower (mostly lower) than his withers? I can't quite work this out. I think the instructor wanted to get him working over his back? I don't know, felt odd and disconnected. I do let him stretch during breaks or at the end, but this was...not that.

 

[shortstuff99]

Your last point is (in my opinion) the crux of the argument between 'classical' dressage and 'competition' dressage.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Your last point is (in my opinion) the crux of the argument between 'classical' dressage and 'competition' dressage.

I think it very well could be.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I did get a bit fed up in one lesson when all I kept hearing was "neck down, neck down, nose deeper" I was like, man, I've worked so hard to get this horse to not be btv and here we are curling him in. Plus, when he's first learning a movement and his head comes up for a few seconds, I'm not offended when his head comes up for a few seconds when learning something new. As we get stronger and more experienced in whatever movement, it will fall into place. I ride the whole horse, not just the front half. Which is another rant around here, people riding/worrying about the front half only. Or literally riding around staring at their horses neck and head. Then you get these horses with bigger front ends and small hindends...because they don't use it properly. It's like, do you want to drive your car with no engine? Or when it's only firing on 4 cylinders instead of 8?

Ok, I'll stop now that I've turned this thread into never ending rant ?

 

[Roxylola]

Plus, when he's first learning a movement and his head comes up for a few seconds, I'm not offended when his head comes up for a few seconds when learning something new. As we get stronger and more experienced in whatever movement, it will fall into place.

One of my teaching analogies is to liken riding to juggling. I tell people that if you're struggling to keep 4 balls in the air it's better to drop one, sort out and get your 3 going well and you can pick the fourth up later. If you insist and insist on trying to keep all your balls going they'll all crash down anyway. If you choose one thing to let go of - head position for instance - you can keep the rest where it needs to be and establish that before you pick your final ball back up.
Not every rider suits every horse, and likewise not every trainer will. Most trainers have more in their toolkit and should be able to adjust to the horse but some don't or won't ?

To my knowledge and understanding PREs don't suit lower level work in dressage, that sort of outline just doesn't suit them. I like to do some head low work with Charlie, but its still very much neck out not dropped or curled, but also not poking his nose. I can tell he benefits from it but he'd much rather drop and curl if I gave him chance

 

[j1ffy]

I still have a question from my last lesson though...how can a horse, specially a PRE in my horses case, effectively use his hindend, and perform various movements in general with his head/poll at the same height or lower (mostly lower) than his withers? I can't quite work this out. I think the instructor wanted to get him working over his back? I don't know, felt odd and disconnected. I do let him stretch during breaks or at the end, but this was...not that.

I had a trainer like this with my first PRE. He was also my first horse as an adult, and the first time I'd done 'dressage'. My horse ended up thoroughly bored with this approach and not at all happy.

On the hot seat / mental attitude - he is the most laidback horse I know. If someone is 'busy' he livens up a little to be a really fun ride, but his preferred state is bumbling along. He is an exceptional little horse though and absolutely one of a kind. My second PRE, Indio, is calm and introverted and really can't cope with 'busy' people, he will hide at the back of his stable if one's on the yard. He's on loan to a friend and her Dad can't catch him - he's a lovely man but very extrovert!

I think Chilli would look like a cross between a Hackney and a Paso Fino if ridden by someone with an electric seat ?

 

[Cortez]

You should be able to ride a horse with his neck up or down as requested, but trying to make a Spanish horse work against his conformation by forcing him to work with a low neck is counterproductive at best. Almost every PRE/Iberian horse I've ever seen in the UK has been working behind the vertical, unbalanced and not using it's hind end, IMO because everyone is being told to "get it to work over its back, go long and low, push it forwards". If you do this for longer than a few strides with most traditionally bred/made PRE's you will throw the poor thing out of it's natural balance.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

You should be able to ride a horse with his neck up or down as requested, but trying to make a Spanish horse work against his conformation by forcing him to work with a low neck is counterproductive at best. Almost every PRE/Iberian horse I've ever seen in the UK has been working behind the vertical, unbalanced and not using it's hind end, IMO because everyone is being told to "get it to work over its back, go long and low, push it forwards". If you do this for longer than a few strides with most traditionally bred/made PRE's you will throw the poor thing out of it's natural balance.

This is my feeling on the matter too. He's adjustable, as in I can position his neck wherever, and it can vary based on what we're working on. However, I felt like he lost his natural balance when I was told to "get it to work over its back, go long and low, push it forwards"

Mine struggles with trot extensions a bit, which isn't unheard of for an Iberian, however, I believe (as a generalization) getting the PRE to extend and the Warmblood (just using that example as they're the most common type here) are two different ballgames. Sure there might be some similar techniques used or overlap in training, in some cases, but for the most part I feel the approach is different. Just from my personal experience. One trainer just had me basically running him off of his feet...and it wasn't so productive. Maybe if we were off to the trotting races..

 

[CanteringCarrot]

One of my teaching analogies is to liken riding to juggling. I tell people that if you're struggling to keep 4 balls in the air it's better to drop one, sort out and get your 3 going well and you can pick the fourth up later. If you insist and insist on trying to keep all your balls going they'll all crash down anyway. If you choose one thing to let go of - head position for instance - you can keep the rest where it needs to be and establish that before you pick your final ball back up.
Not every rider suits every horse, and likewise not every trainer will. Most trainers have more in their toolkit and should be able to adjust to the horse but some don't or won't ?

To my knowledge and understanding PREs don't suit lower level work in dressage, that sort of outline just doesn't suit them. I like to do some head low work with Charlie, but its still very much neck out not dropped or curled, but also not poking his nose. I can tell he benefits from it but he'd much rather drop and curl if I gave him chance

That's a good analogy, actually. Makes sense in my mind.

 

[Cortez]

This is my feeling on the matter too. He's adjustable, as in I can position his neck wherever, and it can vary based on what we're working on. However, I felt like he lost his natural balance when I was told to "get it to work over its back, go long and low, push it forwards"

Mine struggles with trot extensions a bit, which isn't unheard of for an Iberian, however, I believe (as a generalization) getting the PRE to extend and the Warmblood (just using that example as they're the most common type here) are two different ballgames. Sure there might be some similar techniques used or overlap in training, in some cases, but for the most part I feel the approach is different. Just from my personal experience. One trainer just had me basically running him off of his feet...and it wasn't so productive. Maybe if we were off to the trotting races..

One of the trainers I ride with in Portugal says Warmbloods were bred to extend, and don't really collect (see "bouncing" piaffes with no lowering behind), and Iberians were bred to collect, and don't extend in the same way (although they certainly can, just it's all behind and the front legs don't go "flingy").

 

[CanteringCarrot]

One of the trainers I ride with in Portugal says Warmbloods were bred to extend, and don't really collect (see "bouncing" piaffes with no lowering behind), and Iberians were bred to collect, and don't extend in the same way (although they certainly can, just it's all behind and the front legs don't go "flingy").

I think that's quite true in many cases. I've seen exceptions to both, of course. Usually in price ranges I can't afford/would never want to pay!

I know my PRE will doesn't float or fling, but I think we can always try to find our limits and bring out the best of our best. He prefers to move in a rather economical manner if left to it.

 

[Goldenstar]

I left a lesson once I had worked with the trainer ( a German ) for long time several years .
I took my home bred four year old it was a the first lesson away.
The surface had been relayed and it had gone very very deep the mare who was weak and in the first stage of training struggled she was taken aback by the deep surface but she did her best until we started cantering or I should say trying to canter because she could not do it .
The trainer then got up and had a complete hissy fit she was raging at me .
I could feel my mare trying and then inwardly panicking at the shouting .
I just this huge calmness stopped got and said this is not going to help or like that and left .
I still don’t know what happened she was a tough trainer but I had never seen anything like that happen .

 

[Goldenstar]

I trained one very very uphill horse .
What I learned from him is that a cm longer than the horses comfortable place is a stretch of the neck .
Up hill horses will learn a stretch later into training than one built more on its front .

 

[Cortez]

I trained one very very uphill horse .
What I learned from him is that a cm longer than the horses comfortable place is a stretch of the neck .
Up hill horses will learn a stretch later into training than one built more on its front .

100% right, and they will stretch in a different way too.

 

[tristar]

my experience of pre type horses was that the lower level trot work was not very impressive, but, given time and not rushed changes take place, a horse who did not seem very promising becomes a swan as it develops its whole body the paces develop too

i felt an iberian needs not to be pushed out of balance, i found the placing of the head better left natural except when the walk on a long rein is asked for, and sometimes the horse would ask to go deep and round in trot but felt unbalanced, rushed, running so if i asked for lengthening it was false and heavy, but in time the whole thing came together and the good trot and lengthening arrived at the same time

i really feel they are a special case, as in so natural why would anyone want to use deep when just riding nicely will bring the results without going out their comfort zone with something that does not seem natural to them

i like to young horses start to stretch in walk soon as poss

 

[milliepops]

FWIW the zen bum works well with welshies and other busy & bolshy types as well. I think people who don't get on with them tend to be a bit busy themselves.

The thing I have really enjoyed about my regular trainer over the years is his willingness to drop that 4th juggling ball. e.g.everything that Kira ever learned when it came to collection had to first be learned hollow and then she could figure out how to use herself correctly. Pirouettes, piaffe, passage - when she got injured we had just crossed the threshold from hollow to withers-up and back round passage. Lots of people would have scratched their eyes out rather than watch it but for her it was 100% the right way - she has such a huge front that the only way she could learn things like that was if she was allowed to shorten the neck up as a temporary thing to help her balance while she figured out the submission and what to do with her hindlegs. if you forced her to be "round" first and foremost she would never work out how to even try the work.

I think anyone who trains a lot of different types of horses of all kinds, develops a lot of flexibility around methods and techniques and that's the best way to learn IMO.

 

[Goldenstar]

No horse is helped by being pushed out of balance in its training .