Helgstrand…

[j1ffy]

IW has spoken out now to defend Helgstrand and claim he wasn’t there for any of the footage, it wasn’t him etc. Very disappointing.

Isabell Werth: "Honest and Fair Discussion to Show Difference Between Bad Riding and Animal Abuse"

Isabell Werth, the most decorated dressage rider in the world, has issued a statement on her social media channels, touching upon the current state of affairs in the dressage world.

www.eurodressage.com

I saw this on FB too, I had hoped that her statement would be more nuanced and intelligent based on the title (which I agree with) but sadly it was just an unapologetic white-washing of the Helgstrand situation. I really want to like IW as her training vids on Instagram are good, but find her riding hard to watch and her attitude to rollkur and Helgstrand hard to swallow.

Does anyone know what video of Bella Rose she's talking about? If she's managed to have it removed from public viewing it must be bad..!!

 

[nutjob]

IW has spoken out now to defend Helgstrand and claim he wasn’t there for any of the footage, it wasn’t him etc. Very disappointing.

How ridiculous to suggest he wasn't aware. If he was the slightest bit concerned about the abuse he wouldn't have focused on preventing the documentary being shown but on acting upon the footage and removing these abusers from his organisation and rebuilding the culture that has thrived there. I wonder how many of these abusers have been removed from their positions since the existence of the documentary was known. How convenient for other pros if they can dismiss abuse on their own yards by saying they weren't personally involved.

 

[eahotson]

She makes some fair points.None of us are perfect riders and we make mistakes.That is not animal cruelty.As for the rest.If Helgstrand really didn't know what was going on he is at the least incompetent.She talks about animal welfare activists and the term is meant to be derogatory.I am told that the book "I can't bear to watch anymore" is top of the animal welfare books in Amazon USA.There is some very explosive stuff in that book but no one has tried to sue.I wonder why not.

 

[LEC]

She makes some fair points.None of us are perfect riders and we make mistakes.That is not animal cruelty.As for the rest.If Helgstrand really didn't know what was going on he is at the least incompetent.She talks about animal welfare activists and the term is meant to be derogatory.I am told that the book "I can't bear to watch anymore" is top of the animal welfare books in Amazon USA.There is some very explosive stuff in that book but no one has tried to sue.I wonder why not.

I am not condoning it but his time at that facility would be minimal - he really does run a multi billion pound company. But, he should have a culture in any of his businesses with horses of putting the horse first throughout and I suspect this is the issue. The culture, does come down from the top.

 

[LEC]

On the Isabelle thing, Isabelle is old skool and tbh I am surprised she has stuck her neck out on Instagram even if its as curated as it is. Isabelle managed to get Russian air space cleared to fly the horses to Tokyo as they were not initially allowed. That's someone who is very ingrained in the system with a lot of contacts. She has also kept going longer than any of them. Edward Gal has not come back to competing after his time off, Anky quit years ago etc etc

It was always going to be a weak statement as, lets be honest its not that justifiable as done for personal reasons of money. But its done now and it will all blow over.

 

[shortstuff99]

I saw this on FB too, I had hoped that her statement would be more nuanced and intelligent based on the title (which I agree with) but sadly it was just an unapologetic white-washing of the Helgstrand situation. I really want to like IW as her training vids on Instagram are good, but find her riding hard to watch and her attitude to rollkur and Helgstrand hard to swallow.

Does anyone know what video of Bella Rose she's talking about? If she's managed to have it removed from public viewing it must be bad..!!

Think it is linked to this

 

[sbloom]

Absolutely. If anyone has even watched an international warm up nearly ALL the riders in the noughties used excessive flexion. Hickstead Euros 2003 turned me away from competitive dressage, they're all covering their a*ses. Sorry. The thing I remember from Gigolo's work is the weird floppy fetlocks, the feet looking odd - I'm sure there are hoof balance issues there for sure, but I'm gradually starting to learn that that can come from issues higher up...all current best hypotheses as usual. I see it in other top dressage horses too.

Just look at how on the forehand that freeze frame of Isabel is...even if you think the neck position is okay (proper scientific evidence out there that it is not) why would you want to be putting extra load on a horse rather than helping it find better balance?

 

[tristars]

someone once said to me while watching I W `can you do that`? i was too polite to answer, the same person also thinks` putin is a great man`

i have no ambitions to ride like I W and doubt if i could, because i don`t want to anyway i have never liked her riding or training, Gigolo was a beautiful horse, she is, to me the very image of germanic training which i do not like anyway, so its no surprise she sees helgstrand as O K, as a reflection of her own standards

maybe she has no idea that it is not just the obvious abuse people are up in arms about, but mainly the general `YUK` element experienced whilst viewing top level competition dressage, and that they are finally `seeing through` the glamour etc

 

[j1ffy]

Absolutely. If anyone has even watched an international warm up nearly ALL the riders in the noughties used excessive flexion. Hickstead Euros 2003 turned me away from competitive dressage, they're all covering their a*ses. Sorry. The thing I remember from Gigolo's work is the weird floppy fetlocks, the feet looking odd - I'm sure there are hoof balance issues there for sure, but I'm gradually starting to learn that that can come from issues higher up...all current best hypotheses as usual. I see it in other top dressage horses too.

Just look at how on the forehand that freeze frame of Isabel is...even if you think the neck position is okay (proper scientific evidence out there that it is not) why would you want to be putting extra load on a horse rather than helping it find better balance?

It makes no sense to me, however she's the most decorated dressage rider in the world so yet again we come back to the judging.

Again her statement is full of glaring omissions - she comments on making mistakes in the past, in which case why not come right out and say that riding in hyperflexion / Rollkur was a mistake? I'd have a lot more respect for her (and other similar riders) if they acknowledged the issues and demonstrated how they have improved. Currently it looks like she's saying 'yes I made some mistakes now leave me alone'...presumably to keep making the same 'mistakes'.

I do agree with the sentiment that we need to be more specific about bad riding vs. abuse. Training a horse to a high level is a very difficult thing to do and very few people can achieve it without getting a few things wrong - vilifying riders for horses that drop slightly BTV on their way to Grand Prix isn't the end of the world. Systematic use of an abusive training technique should be called out, addressed and not rewarded in the ring...it's just hard to know how to do this unless judges are incentivised and re-trained appropriately.

 

[tristars]

but this is part of the trouble , the aura, glamour, the we are far above you lot, leave us alone in our sophisticated superior world

dressage is for anyone who wants to study it

 

[Roxylola]

I didn't make it through the statement, I found it a bit woolly. Is bad riding, in the face of knowing better not abuse though?

 

[sbloom]

vilifying riders for horses that drop slightly BTV on their way to Grand Prix isn't the end of the world.

I barely ever see this, it's horses held consistently BTV that evoke ire, but the discussions I'm party to are about overall posture, biomechanics, what it does to the body, not just BTV rants. However, we all know that riding a horse consistently BTV in compression is deliberate and is harmful to the horse's physiology. Is there any horse in the ring that truly pushes up in front, rather than somewhat falls over its front legs? That is truly combating gravity with healthy movement patterns? The fact that they retire to the field late teens and are still "happy" however many years later does not mean that the training was not harmful - it seems that whatever reason someone posits for not riding like this the defence shifts and now we're at "well most of them don't die before their twenties"....

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As with most things IW, I walked away from that (article) feeling rather meh and unimpressed/uninspired.

 

[millitiger]

Gah, reading that actually makes me angry.

She and Andreas Helgstrand must have a different idea on what loving horses means, if she thinks we are all united in that.
You don't treat animals like that it you love them, you do it when they just mean £££ to you.

 

[teapot]

I'd only read the H&H article about IW's comment and didn't think she came out of it in the best light

‘There have been very ugly pictures’: Isabell Werth speaks out about controversy in dressage

German Olympic dressage rider Isabell Werth has issued a statement speaking out about the current controversies taking place in the dressage world

www.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[Bernster]

i know it’s a nuanced point which social media may not get across very well, but ‘being kind’ should never be used to silence people who speak up about cruelty and expose bad practices.

Is IW saying she doesn’t believe the footage, or that it wasn’t cruelty, or that Helgstrand didn’t know so should not be held accountable?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

i know it’s a nuanced point which social media may not get across very well, but ‘being kind’ should never be used to silence people who speak up about cruelty and expose bad practices.

Couldn't agree more. #BeKind is used to excuse all manner of awfulness. That was the main jist of the shouty vet in her much derided FB post. I prefer THINK. As in is what you are saying:
True
Helpful
Important
Necessary
Kind

Kind being not essential if the others apply. But you can try and be as kind as possible in the circumstances!

 

[shortstuff99]

For commercial purposes or to stop "bad press"

FEI Whips Up Storm with New "Social Media Guidelines" Restricting Video Rights

The FEI has whipped up a storm with its updated "Non-rights Holders’ Guidelines for Publishing on Social Media at FEI Named Events." These guidelines were updated on 12 February 2024 but only as of today got spread amongst press and stakeholders

eurodressage.com

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Oh f*ck off.


(Not anyone in this thread. The FEI)

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Now, I know this is not the first sport to do this, but at a time when the sport needs transparency, openness, and not align with the trash people within the sport

 

[millitiger]

Terrible move and timing from FEI.

 

[ycbm]

For commercial purposes or to stop "bad press"

FEI Whips Up Storm with New "Social Media Guidelines" Restricting Video Rights

The FEI has whipped up a storm with its updated "Non-rights Holders’ Guidelines for Publishing on Social Media at FEI Named Events." These guidelines were updated on 12 February 2024 but only as of today got spread amongst press and stakeholders

eurodressage.com

I think that's much more of a commercial thing than anything as the tests will still be available from the FEI on sources which earn them money, and still be criticised, but it isn't at all a good look, welfare wise.
.

 

[YourValentine]

As I understand it, it's about commercial use - by riders, sponsors, streaming platforms etc not about general attendees filming on their phones.
Still not the best time or wording if the launch.

They will never manage to police the general audience filming & taking photos. So filming and sharing/reporting of bad practice etc will still be possible.

 

[eahotson]

As I understand it, it's about commercial use - by riders, sponsors, streaming platforms etc not about general attendees filming on their phones.
Still not the best time or wording if the launch.

They will never manage to police the general audience filming & taking photos. So filming and sharing/reporting of bad practice etc will still be possible.

Good.

 

[tristars]

its not just animal welfare, we want to see good training and the F E I abide by their own definitions of same

let them carry on, they are doing a beautiful job of cutting their own throats

 

[reynold]

Further fall out from Helgstrand. The nordic countries are getting together and seem to be trying to push the FEI

‘A grave error to think this is just a dressage problem’: new forum agreed to help tackle welfare concerns

An FEI dressage forum will be organised this year to tackle concerns in the sport – but the equestrian community has been warned that it would be a “grave error” to think welfare issues are “just a dressage problem”. The Swedish Equestrian Federation’s horse welfare council and the Gothenburg...

www.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Pammy Hutton is getting very active in calling this out. There is an open FB Group called Equestrians It is Time to Act.

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The latest post from Epona TV , shared by Pammy, about the abuse at Helgstrand makes my blood boil. With the mounting evidence of widespread, systematic abuse in dressage I am utterly beyond listening to any apologists for it. They can feck right off. At this point if you are not willing to be part of a solution, then you are part of the problem.

 

[tristars]

five or six years ago i was ridiculed on this forum for talking about what i saw as bad training, and told to go play in garden with my unicorns, well today i am so happy , well done pammy, horses need the support of respected horse people to move this along, because its gone on too long.

and helgstrand has hung himself there stating his training is to `show the horse how to [basically come down] with draw reins, harsh use of bits, his lack of understanding results in ruining horses, true horsemanship and helgstrand are strangers, clueless.

 

[jofwigby]

So pleased Pammy Hutton has spoken out (again) silence is deafening from the rest. Vive la revolution in Paris

 

[Cortez]

Pammy Hutton is a good egg and I agree with her on most points. Until somebody extremely well respected speaks up nothing will change. The lack of ripost from competitors and judges is indeed telling, although truly there really isn't a defense for what is going on, and has become the dreadful norm.