Helgstrand…

[j1ffy]

I appreciate this thread is heading down a rabbit hole but on the subject of pillars - I know they can be a very useful tool and have seen them demonstrated beautifully at the SRS. However I have also seen a far poorer display at the Royal School in Jerez, the horse didn't look ready to be demonstrated between the pillars in front of an audience and appeared very stressed and tense. It really put me off the Jerez school unfortunately, a number of the other horses looked to be struggling with what was being asked too

I think YCBM's point was that 'classical' schools aren't always perfect, I would imagine particularly so when they need to turn a profit rather than train for the sake of beautiful training.

 

[tristars]

i was referring to recently posted videos on this forum of people abusing horses

i have not said i do not understand them, and am well aware of the advantages and am not dismissing or distrusting them, and have not said anywhere that i am

thank you for the lecture, [yet again]

 

[Cortez]

i was referring to recently posted videos on this forum of people abusing horses

i have not said i do not understand them, and am well aware of the advantages and am not dismissing or distrusting them, and have not said anywhere that i am

thank you for the lecture, [yet again]

Tristars, there is no need to be snippy. You are implacably against spurs, and double bridles, for some reason that you have failed to explain in any comprehensible way; this doesn’t prevent me from trying to demystify it for you. No need to thank me.

I was actually complimenting you on getting the point of pillars rather well.

 

[Cortez]

I appreciate this thread is heading down a rabbit hole but on the subject of pillars - I know they can be a very useful tool and have seen them demonstrated beautifully at the SRS. However I have also seen a far poorer display at the Royal School in Jerez, the horse didn't look ready to be demonstrated between the pillars in front of an audience and appeared very stressed and tense. It really put me off the Jerez school unfortunately, a number of the other horses looked to be struggling with what was being asked too

I think YCBM's point was that 'classical' schools aren't always perfect, I would imagine particularly so when they need to turn a profit rather than train for the sake of beautiful training.

Yes, I agree it’s not always done well, like every other form of horsemanship (and also agree about the Jerez school not being at it’s best recently; and don’t even start on what the SRS is becoming!….). I kind of wish that “Classical” training had not been discovered by mainstream people as it has been bandied about and distorted out of all recognition by a lot of charlatans who don’t have the first idea (largely in America, but plenty over this end too). But let’s stick with the modern stuff and get that addressed in any way we can. I’ll be writing to the FEI again, but it really takes a concerted effort as I’m sure they have me in the “cranks” file at this stage.

 

[tristars]

classical riding and training can be done by anyone who has feelings for the horse, and tries to understand what is happening underneath them when riding,

even riding down the long side of school can be done classically, simple things done well

its not high and mighty, mysterious or even difficult, its for everyone who wants to go there, you don`t need gurus, humility kindness and building a relationship based on incremental steps that build up the horse, not break it down are where many people might find what they are looking for.


i sincerely hope the FEI making spurs optional is the first step, possibly they were too scared to ban them outright


when the horse keeps the rider its too easy for welfare to slide


when the rider keeps the horse, the priority can be the horses welfare

 

[splashgirl45]

It’s not the spurs or the double bridle that are causing the problems and used correctly cause no problem for the horse . It’s the judging that is the current problem, it seemed to improve as shown by the 2012 olyompics , our horses were marked above the overbent stressy ones and it was so refreshing to see dressage like this. I was there and thoroughly enjoyed the competition as opposed to now when I cringe at many tests

 

[I'm Dun]

It’s not the spurs or the double bridle that are causing the problems and used correctly cause no problem for the horse . It’s the judging that is the current problem, it seemed to improve as shown by the 2012 olyompics , our horses were marked above the overbent stressy ones and it was so refreshing to see dressage like this. I was there and thoroughly enjoyed the competition as opposed to now when I cringe at many tests

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Re the spurs being optional- I thought dummy spurs were already permissable?

 

[splashgirl45]

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

If they are bleeding they are not being used sensitively. I have been around dressage horses who have been ridden in spurs and have never seen bleeding.. , the judging is the main problem IMO as they are rewarding flashy movement rather than a correct harmonious test without the huge movement …

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

Not every rider that uses spurs causes their horse to bleed. I will say that I've seen improper use of spurs though.

It's kind of like this: a highly trained dressage horse essentially has buttons on its side. A spur can allow to you precisely and subtly press those buttons. To put it in basic terms. IMO, you should not be gouging or using much force at all.

A vast majority of people find causing a horse to bleed from spur usage to be inappropriate and just wrong. Just as a vast majority would find causing you dog to bleed to be wrong.

 

[SEL]

Yes it's extremely difficult to find pictures, why is that?

The other one I had a choice of has the horse sat with its hocks on the surface of the school. I chose not to use that as it was too extreme.
.

Audiences aren't allowed to take photos at Jerez - at least last time I was there - I suspect to stop the non stop annoying camera flashes so that will minimise the level of non publicity photos

There's some short YouTube videos on using the pillars for training piaffe, levade etc. Presumably not aimed at numpties like me!!

 

[Cortez]

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

The instances of horses being marked or bleeding from spurs in dressage is extremely low and I can honestly say that I've only ever seen it happen twice in my very long association with dressage competition. It should of course never happen, in any sport. I've seen abuse with spurs far more frequently in polo, Pony Club, hunting and showjumping, but I repeat: it should never happen. I did have a stallion years ago who had such sensitive skin that he marked even from the seam of my boot. I competed him in fake spurs made from rubber, but even then had to be very careful not to let them rest on his side - he would have bled if spurs were used in any way strongly, but yet he never was ridden in such a way to make that happen.

Re dogs: prong collars are abhorrent pieces of kit, but people still use them, presumably perfectly legally, and choke chains too.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

Slightly redundant point, you can use a collar that gives it a literal electric shock, with prongs that are not dissimilar to spurs directed straight into it's neck with no reprieve - and that is perfectly legal. You can collapse it's trachea with a choke collar, suffocate it with a prong collar... There is potential hideousness at every turn, the onus is on the handler/rider, not on the tool (within reason)

 

[I'm Dun]

Electric collars are banned now. If I used a big prong collar to choke my dog at a competition I'd be rightly vilified. Thats not happening with horses.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Electric collars are banned now. If I used a big prong collar to choke my dog at a competition I'd be rightly vilified. Thats not happening with horses.

In competitions people are disqualified for blood though- I'm not defending spur marks etc - they are misused (as are most training aids), but there are plenty of combinations out competing with spurs and without marks, so it is demonstrably possible to use them sensitively.

ETA I do think that spur misuse should carry a higher penalty- such as losing the rest of the season, rather than just that competition.

 

[tristars]

if bruising is present, and cannot be seen, touching a sore bruise with a spur could be seen as an advantage or sensitization

 

[Cortez]

if bruising is present, and cannot be seen, touching a sore bruise with a spur could be seen as an advantage or sensitization

Jabbing with spurs, which is what would cause bruising, certainly won’t result in enhanced sensitivity. Have you ever been taught how to use spurs?

 

[YourValentine]

Yes, I agree it’s not always done well, like every other form of horsemanship (and also agree about the Jerez school not being at it’s best recently; and don’t even start on what the SRS is becoming!….). I kind of wish that “Classical” training had not been discovered by mainstream people as it has been bandied about and distorted out of all recognition by a lot of charlatans who don’t have the first idea (largely in America, but plenty over this end too). But let’s stick with the modern stuff and get that addressed in any way we can. I’ll be writing to the FEI again, but it really takes a concerted effort as I’m sure they have me in the “cranks” file at this stage.

We should ALL be writing to the FEI. Any tips on points to address or how to word them?

 

[ladygreytea]

Not every rider that uses spurs causes their horse to bleed. I will say that I've seen improper use of spurs though.

It's kind of like this: a highly trained dressage horse essentially has buttons on its side. A spur can allow to you precisely and subtly press those buttons. To put it in basic terms. IMO, you should not be gouging or using much force at all.

A vast majority of people find causing a horse to bleed from spur usage to be inappropriate and just wrong. Just as a vast majority would find causing you dog to bleed to be wrong.

Have to agree with CanteringCarrot´s point here. I used to ride and show my grandmothers Trakehner mare in intermediate and advanced dressage before we retired her to be a broodmare. Small, ball spurs were more than enough on the days we´d practice flying lead changes and pirouettes more intensely, always being extra gentle and making sure to not overuse them.
Key being short training sessions with lots of time to stretch beforehand and long-reined short hack out in pasture before being turned out.
Whatever is going on in FEI level Dressage since the early 00s is appalling. No harmony, no connection, extremely stressed and tense horses, lackluster performances by riders who are outhorsed or on the judges good side.
It´s sad to see and a far cry from what Dressage should really be about

 

[Michen]

And Annabella pidgley advertising their jewelry all over her insta. Urgh. I couldn’t help myself but comment.

Why would you not keep that association quiet.

 

[Surbie]

And Annabella pidgley advertising their jewelry all over her insta. Urgh. I couldn’t help myself but comment.

Why would you not keep that association quiet.

It'll be deleted fairly fast. Mine was...

 

[Michen]

It'll be deleted fairly fast. Mine was...

Revolting.

 

[SEL]

And Annabella pidgley advertising their jewelry all over her insta. Urgh. I couldn’t help myself but comment.

Why would you not keep that association quiet.

Disappointing isn't it?

 

[Michen]

Disappointing isn't it?

It’s just unbelievable. Where are the repercussions? It feels like there are none.

 

[Caol Ila]

Wasn’t she dating Helgstrand’s son?

 

[Michen]

Wasn’t she dating Helgstrand’s son?

Yes and still is and splashing him, the business etc all over insta. At least be gracious enough to keep quiet about it.

 

[ladygreytea]

It sure feels like, after a certain point in eventing, judges really don´t care about their actual job description nor the guidelines in place to safeguard adequate, correct riding. Only widespread nepotism and certain sponsored riders (all ages btw) are judged higher, no matter how lackluster their performance was

 

[eahotson]

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

I have used spurs and never had bleeding sides.

 

[ycbm]

I dunno about that. If I needed to use metal attached to my leg to control my dog it would be seen as abuse. If its all about refinment then why do horses end up with bleeding sides even when ridden sensitively? If I caused my dog to bleed when training it, it would be taken off me.

I don't think any horse bleeds if a spur is used sensitively, no matter how thin skinned they are. A refined aid would be no more than a touch, given that a horse can feel a fly land, and no fly landing causes bleeding.

It's only misuse that causes bleeding, hence it's an automatic disqualification. Misuse is rife, though.

I had an interesting experience with my last horse who hadn't been taught to go forwards from a long leg, being a flat racer. I bought some new boots but they were too big for my ankles and to keep them on I used spurs with the head of the spur cut off. He was more forward from the aid just with that thin flat strip of metal round my boot. It was much nicer for us both than having to use a stronger aid to retrain him.
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

IW has spoken out now to defend Helgstrand and claim he wasn’t there for any of the footage, it wasn’t him etc. Very disappointing.

Isabell Werth: "Honest and Fair Discussion to Show Difference Between Bad Riding and Animal Abuse"

Isabell Werth, the most decorated dressage rider in the world, has issued a statement on her social media channels, touching upon the current state of affairs in the dressage world.

www.eurodressage.com