Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
If the YOs car had been in an accident in the snow and the police had come you could both have been fined under the covid laws.
Help! Sharer snow day dilemma
- Thread starter SaddlePsych'D
- Start date
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Why would I not involve the owner about an issue and decision relating to their horse? If I'd come on here saying I'd tried to sort it myself and decided what should happen on my own I'm sure I'd be slated for not consulting the owner. Sharers can't win it seems.
If you read you will see I did offer to pay YM (on top of what I pay owner for the share) or make up in doing extra jobs for her on another day. This was declined.
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
I think you've been put in a difficult position @SaddlePsych'D .
Well done you for doing the responsible thing - e.g sorting it out - rather than just leave it. I think it's irresponsible of the horse owner and YM at best to expect you to break the current law to sort out a horse that ultimately isnt yours.
If it was me, I'd request an agreement between YO and horse owner of what will happen next time.
Well done you for doing the responsible thing - e.g sorting it out - rather than just leave it. I think it's irresponsible of the horse owner and YM at best to expect you to break the current law to sort out a horse that ultimately isnt yours.
If it was me, I'd request an agreement between YO and horse owner of what will happen next time.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Well, for starters a sharer would need to clear that plan with the owner...
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
@SaddlePsych'D I think some people are giving you a bit of an unfair kicking on here.
Regardless of a share arrangement, the responsibility always stops with the owner. It isn't as simple as saying "your days, your horse" because there are loads of things that a sharer can't do on their days. They can't change the tack they're using without the owner's permission, they can't change feed, they manage the horse in the way they are told to, if a vet is needed, they will involve the owner, etc. etc. During Covid, there are lots of yards that banned sharers- our yard owner nearly did, but then decided to let one sharer up as she helps with a couple of people's ponies, and they would have been in a tricky position if she had been banned.
In an emergency (either relating to the horse, or relating to the sharer) the owner always needs to be available.
Also, given the owner asked you to give up a day on Friday so she could ride, I think it's then very unfair for her to put you at risk to go up to the yard today- just to muck out. In my opinion, that is very much an owner taking advantage of a sharer, IMO- and is actually the sort of thing that might make me rethink a share arrangement.
Regardless of a share arrangement, the responsibility always stops with the owner. It isn't as simple as saying "your days, your horse" because there are loads of things that a sharer can't do on their days. They can't change the tack they're using without the owner's permission, they can't change feed, they manage the horse in the way they are told to, if a vet is needed, they will involve the owner, etc. etc. During Covid, there are lots of yards that banned sharers- our yard owner nearly did, but then decided to let one sharer up as she helps with a couple of people's ponies, and they would have been in a tricky position if she had been banned.
In an emergency (either relating to the horse, or relating to the sharer) the owner always needs to be available.
Also, given the owner asked you to give up a day on Friday so she could ride, I think it's then very unfair for her to put you at risk to go up to the yard today- just to muck out. In my opinion, that is very much an owner taking advantage of a sharer, IMO- and is actually the sort of thing that might make me rethink a share arrangement.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I think Hashrouge and Wishfilly are spot on. The arrangement is (and will always be) inheritently unequal, and while the sharer has responsibility for the horse on their days, it still isn't their horse. They can't make decisions for it as if it was their horse. The buck always stops with the owner. And as pointed out above, it isn't the sharer's call to keep the horse at a yard that's awkward to access in snow, or doesn't provide cover in an emergency. Since the owner chose to keep their horse at this place, it's up to them to have a plan for dealing with these situations.
The downside of a share is that you can't make decisions for or ultimately be in control of the horse. The upside is that you get to ride a horse several days per week, and the hard stuff isn't your problem.
The downside of a share is that you can't make decisions for or ultimately be in control of the horse. The upside is that you get to ride a horse several days per week, and the hard stuff isn't your problem.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I think the OPs plan to discuss future arrangements is a good one, because this ought to have been sorted in principle by the owner in advance IMO.
Snow is one thing, what if OP was taken very ill on her day? There should be contingency in place and i believe its down to the owner to arrange that as the horse is ultimately their responsibility.
I said earlier that I used to walk to my yard in the snow, and I would do that for a share if necessary, but equally I'd expect the buck to stop with the owner in extreme circumstances really. I find it a bit weird that they left SPD to try and sort something, tbh if it was my horse I'd have probably taken over upon seeing the weather but perhaps that's just my inner control freak ?
Snow is one thing, what if OP was taken very ill on her day? There should be contingency in place and i believe its down to the owner to arrange that as the horse is ultimately their responsibility.
I said earlier that I used to walk to my yard in the snow, and I would do that for a share if necessary, but equally I'd expect the buck to stop with the owner in extreme circumstances really. I find it a bit weird that they left SPD to try and sort something, tbh if it was my horse I'd have probably taken over upon seeing the weather but perhaps that's just my inner control freak ?
EllenJay
Well-Known Member
Why would you "be slated" for taking responsibility for sorting out your share horse? Why does the owner need to make a decision? All you should have done was make sure that on a day YOU took responsibility for looking after their horse you made a decision. Alternatively, why didn't you contact the owner earlier to say you couldn't make it to the yard?
You took on an agreement to do basic day to day jobs on agreed days. Part of that responsibility is to make sure that those jobs are done.
Sorry I have a different view to you, but in my opinion part of having a share horse is to see if you are ready to have your own horse, and to do that, you have to be ready to make sure they are looked after on daily basic chores
SO1
Well-Known Member
Very tricky situation. I would not be on a yard where they did not have emergency cover for days like this.
I am on part livery and two staff live on site. Today live out staff member who was meant to catch in and finish off yard was snowed in. So those of us who were there at catch in helped. By the time we had caught in most of the other liveries had arrived. Some people helped with salting the yard etc.
I don't know how long owner has been on the yard and what has happened in previous yards if there is snow but now you both know that if there is heavy snow getting to yard is going to be problematic. Therefore some sort of agreement needs to be arranged for these situations in future.
The horse is ultimately the owners responsibility. They choose where they keep their horse and how it is looked after. That includes thinking about what to do if you through no fault of your own are suddenly unable to get to the yard on your day.
I am on part livery and two staff live on site. Today live out staff member who was meant to catch in and finish off yard was snowed in. So those of us who were there at catch in helped. By the time we had caught in most of the other liveries had arrived. Some people helped with salting the yard etc.
I don't know how long owner has been on the yard and what has happened in previous yards if there is snow but now you both know that if there is heavy snow getting to yard is going to be problematic. Therefore some sort of agreement needs to be arranged for these situations in future.
The horse is ultimately the owners responsibility. They choose where they keep their horse and how it is looked after. That includes thinking about what to do if you through no fault of your own are suddenly unable to get to the yard on your day.
Michen
Well-Known Member
I think this post is pretty condescending. Plenty of sharers are not sharing to see if they are ready for ownership, often they’ve owned and circumstances have changed.
Ultimately the great thing about a share is you DON’T have the responsibility owners do. Such as vet bills and tough decisions. And IMO exceptional circumstances ie driving conditions is one of those things where an owner needs to step up and be an owner.
I am quite shocked by some of the attitudes of people on here. I hope I never end up sharing and accidentally have an owner who has these sorts of attitude. Where is the compassion and the appreciation for a sharer who is actually trying to do the right thing.
If you trust someone enough to care for your horses, at least try and look after them a bit and work together!
Ultimately the great thing about a share is you DON’T have the responsibility owners do. Such as vet bills and tough decisions. And IMO exceptional circumstances ie driving conditions is one of those things where an owner needs to step up and be an owner.
I am quite shocked by some of the attitudes of people on here. I hope I never end up sharing and accidentally have an owner who has these sorts of attitude. Where is the compassion and the appreciation for a sharer who is actually trying to do the right thing.
If you trust someone enough to care for your horses, at least try and look after them a bit and work together!
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Because it's making decisions about their horse's care without involving them? Presumably if I'd make the wrong decision they'd have good reason to be unhappy with me. Where exactly is the line drawn between decisions I can and cannot make as a sharer? How often do yard owners and horse owners conflict on these kinds of decisions let alone bringing sharers in to the mix?
The snow really escalated quite quickly today. When my own road became very quickly covered, I messaged the yard owner to ask how it was at the yard and it wasn't until they replied that they were stuck that I realised how severe it was, at which point I contacted the owner.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I don’t see it as tricky at all. Quite the opposite. And I’m not entirely sure why it’s even an ongoing discussion - except to reinforce the point that the buck stops with the owner of the horse.
The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
Blimey! Wind your neck in! They need to talk about getting future plans in place.
I think that whatever sharer did she was caught in the middle of things.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Absolutely spot on. I no longer have horses, but if I were to get back in to them I’d be considering a share. I will never own a horse again.
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
Actually, in my experience, a lot of owners don't want the sharer to make decisions. It's unusual a sharer can make a decision of little things like what boots the horse might wear out hacking - so a change of routine decision, is unlikely to be up the sharer to make.
I've shared, loaned and owned and honestly, sharing was the hardest at times as you're totally stuck between a rock and a hard place on situations like this.
I actually think SPD is showing what a great sharer they are by how they've shown consideration to the horse, horse owner and YM. I hope they realise they are lucky to have you
AmyMay
Situation normal
I wish I could ‘like’ this more than once.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
I've asked to clarify on exactly these things. I think it's possible that aspects of the livery agreement are not clear. Which isn't up to me as sharer obviously its not my livery agreement but I think has possibly impacted on the situation today. Hopefully by asking for clarity for myself it will avoid this happening again and get owner and YM to clarify things between themselves if this needs to happen as well.
I'm don't think I'm a great sharer tbh. I'm not a particularly skilled rider, and I'm not very confident. But I do my best, I take pride in the jobs I do, I offer to make myself useful around the yard for owner and YM, I'm safety conscious, I ask if I'm not sure, and always want to learn more so that I do as good a job for the horses I interact with as I can. I never want to cause anyone stress or let them down. I'm very grateful for the share I have as the owner offered me the support and supervision I needed in the beginning and the YM is always around so its a good set up in many ways for a first share. I think today flagged up a break down in communication and hopefully this can be resolved with everyone happy.
HappyHollyDays
Slave to a house cat, 4 yard cats and 2 ponies
You sound a very responsible sharer so don’t beat yourself up or put yourself down. Good sharers are like gold dust and your owner and YM are lucky to have you around and between them they should not have left you in the situation you found yourself in today.
mariew
Well-Known Member
The buck stops with the owner, always. All owners should have a back up plan if it for some reason they or the sharer(s) can't get to the yard. She is not prepared to share a car with the yo but expects you to do it? Cheeky. As long as a horse has water and hay, a days worth of mucky stable shouldn't be a big deal. She doesn't sound like a particularly nice owner from what I have seen here tbh.
sjdress
Well-Known Member
Surely you can’t accept a lift at the moment due to COVID...
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
Exactly this! I share because I own 2 retired horses and still want to ride, WITHOUT the cost or responsibility of owning a third horse!
doodle
Well-Known Member
yes I agree, I wasn’t thinking.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I am not really getting how this works. Because yes it is the owner's choice where the horse is kept, but surely a sharer also has the choice of whether that location is OK for them, and if it is not they can look for another horse. And I am guessing that the owner pays vet bills etc?
I am also wondering what is the general split of costs? Say a horse is worked 6 days a week and a sharer takes 3 of the days the horse works would you expect to just pay 50% of the livery / food / shoeing costs? If so it seems like a great deal, no vets bills or unexpected expenses, owner provides equipment and you can end it with short notice in case of a problem. Or does it work some other way, a longer term commitment that can't be terminated in case the horse is out of action?
Winters100
Well-Known Member
You sound like a pretty good sharer to me. Unfortunate situation today, and I still don't really understand how the share thing works, but I would personally be much happier having someone who tries and listens around my horses than someone who thought they knew it all.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I mean, yeah. The sharer can say 'I don't like this yard' and not share the horse. My old sharer did not want to ride at a yard that wasn't my ex-yard, so when I moved the horse, she stopped sharing. However, most sharers won't think of every contingency under the sun, and unless they live in Dalwhinnie, heavy snow isn't a factor that most people in the UK ever think about.
In terms of costs, it works every way you can imagine and some you can't. I guess some people charge people half the livery, half the shoeing, whatever. Some come up with an arbitrary number like £20 per week. I charged my sharer zero, because my horse fencewalked if she was left out after 2pm, and the YOs would not bring her in early for love nor money, so 'payment' was the sharer being at my beck and call to fetch the horse (who was otherwise on full livery) at 2pm on days I couldn't. Some people get to ride the horse twice per week. Or once per week. Or three times per week. Every owner and sharer will have a different arrangement.
Then there are loans and part loans, and this is where I get a bit lost because we have different words in the US. We have leases and part-leases and free leases and all sorts of incarnations of those things. A lease would be where someone pays you X per month to have full care and custody of your horse, but they are not entirely responsible for livery, shoeing, etc. A free lease would be where someone pays you nothing to have full care and custody of your horse, but they are responsible for all bills (though big vet bills is where this can get tricky). A part lease is what Brits call a share -- someone pays you X or offers some kind of service to ride your horse a few days per week.
I don't know myself what the difference between a share and a part loan is on this side of the Atlantic.
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TheHairyOne
Well-Known Member
Every share is different, but as an owner Id be annoyed if the yard owner called one of the sharers about anything to do with the yard unless there had been no reply from my sister or I and it was a dire emergency.
Now we are lucky in that we both manage the herd as a whole, and 99% of the time one of us is always doing them with the sharers. The only time we were away together was when we both went off to Nationals for the weekend. We left our oldest sharer in charge with instructions to manage everything including the other sharers and to only contact us for dire emergencies as given we were 2 hours away not much we could have done anyway!
Weather like today is a royal pain, just sort out the protocol for next time and put today down as experience since clearly horse was sorted enough. What did the owner do before she had you helping?
As a side note there are degrees of awful weather. Only once in the 12 plus years we've had horses could neither of us get to the yard. That day the only 2 people who made it walked in and they did the bare minimum (food/water) for the whole yard. They were paid with a lot of wine for that one!!!
Now we are lucky in that we both manage the herd as a whole, and 99% of the time one of us is always doing them with the sharers. The only time we were away together was when we both went off to Nationals for the weekend. We left our oldest sharer in charge with instructions to manage everything including the other sharers and to only contact us for dire emergencies as given we were 2 hours away not much we could have done anyway!
Weather like today is a royal pain, just sort out the protocol for next time and put today down as experience since clearly horse was sorted enough. What did the owner do before she had you helping?
As a side note there are degrees of awful weather. Only once in the 12 plus years we've had horses could neither of us get to the yard. That day the only 2 people who made it walked in and they did the bare minimum (food/water) for the whole yard. They were paid with a lot of wine for that one!!!
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
Well yes it is a good deal, but don't forget most horses in the UK are kept at DIY livery set ups, so the owner is also getting a good deal because they get free care for their horse and a financial contribution. Alternatively, if the horse is kept at part or full livery, the cost for sharing will likely be higher and the owner will be getting a good chunk of their livery costs paid. The owner is also able to end the arrangement at short notice should they want to. The mistake is in assuming this is an equal arrangement though - the sharer can't make any decisions about the horse's care/training/ routine/ equipment/ where it is kept etc. So it's not really right or fair for the owner to expect them to deal with difficult situations just because they happen on the sharer's day.
atropa
Well-Known Member
Op you sound like a very reliable and responsible sharer so please don't put yourself down.
I am frankly shocked at your owner's attitude- taking Friday off you to ride as it was a nice day but can't possibly get to the yard today due to snow?! What the hell were they planning if you took the same view that it was too dangerous to travel/car share? Have they been in touch since to ask if horse has been dealt with for the day?
I am frankly shocked at your owner's attitude- taking Friday off you to ride as it was a nice day but can't possibly get to the yard today due to snow?! What the hell were they planning if you took the same view that it was too dangerous to travel/car share? Have they been in touch since to ask if horse has been dealt with for the day?
sport horse
Well-Known Member
I can only speak as an owner. I had a horse on loan and on a day such as today the loaners contact me to say they did not want the horse any more and had no feed. The horse was on a loan contract that they had to give me a months notice and as I had delivered it to them they would see that it was returned.
However, it was my horse. I drove 3 hours from near London, up into the Derbyshire hills in a horsebox, on my own, to find the horse shut in a stable with no bed, no food and no water and no people around to help me turn the lorry in a narrow lane in a blizzard and load the horse. All the contracts and pre/during loan checks cannot totally protect you from this situation. My horse, my responsibility. Moral of story, make sure loans are nearer home!
However, it was my horse. I drove 3 hours from near London, up into the Derbyshire hills in a horsebox, on my own, to find the horse shut in a stable with no bed, no food and no water and no people around to help me turn the lorry in a narrow lane in a blizzard and load the horse. All the contracts and pre/during loan checks cannot totally protect you from this situation. My horse, my responsibility. Moral of story, make sure loans are nearer home!
maya2008
Well-Known Member
Moral of this story = always live close enough to owned horse(s) that you could walk if you absolutely had to. Then owner could have gone up! Well or have a super 4x4 to help you!
I have walked for nearly 1.5 hours each way when I really had to. After that, no horse was ever that far from home, no matter how nice the yard!
I have walked for nearly 1.5 hours each way when I really had to. After that, no horse was ever that far from home, no matter how nice the yard!