HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[Michen]

I really hope there is improvement on your next scan.

It's really awful going through things like this

Thank you. It’s absolutely vile I feel like I keep getting it wrong for him. But most importantly he’s in a field and happy.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I'm so sorry Michen. What awful news and what difficult decisions. Thinking of you xxx

 

[J&S]

So sorry you are in this position, as an owner, but as you say, he is out near his friend and essentially happy. I also understand your reluctance to have him operated on, with or without your previous very bad experience. x

 

[HashRouge]

Thank you. It’s absolutely vile I feel like I keep getting it wrong for him. But most importantly he’s in a field and happy.

I don't think you are getting it wrong at all; you have put so much time, effort and love into rehabbing him over the past few months. He is lucky to have such a caring owner!

I know it is difficult but try not to keep dwelling on the what ifs and just take things day by day atm. Fingers crossed he will improve and you won't need to make a decision about the GA.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

These two are so lucky to have you.

 

[Michen]

I'm so sorry Michen. What awful news and what difficult decisions. Thinking of you xxx

Thank you xx

So sorry you are in this position, as an owner, but as you say, he is out near his friend and essentially happy. I also understand your reluctance to have him operated on, with or without your previous very bad experience. x

Thanks. I’m really glad he’s out and he’s very happy in himself. I can’t imagine him living the rest of his life retired in a field though, it’s just so not “him”.

I don't think you are getting it wrong at all; you have put so much time, effort and love into rehabbing him over the past few months. He is lucky to have such a caring owner!

I know it is difficult but try not to keep dwelling on the what ifs and just take things day by day atm. Fingers crossed he will improve and you won't need to make a decision about the GA.

Good advice thank you. I think I’m just getting myself into a total panic about it, I’m not an anxious person at all but every time I think about a GA I get a physical wave of sick feeling and a tightness in my chest- it’s really bizarre and must be linked to loosing Basil in the way that I did.

 

[Michen]

These two are so lucky to have you.

Thank you. Xx

 

[scats]

Sorry to hear this Michen, but try not to panic just yet. I can totally understand your reluctance to put him under a GA given your past experience but many horses have GA’s every day and are absolutely fine, so don’t rule it out completely. But then I fully understand if you decide to turn him out and let him retire, as I have done that several times myself xx
Don’t get too far ahead of yourself yet though, just see how the next couple of weeks go.

 

[Michen]

Sorry to hear this Michen, but try not to panic just yet. I can totally understand your reluctance to put him under a GA given your past experience but many horses have GA’s every day and are absolutely fine, so don’t rule it out completely. But then I fully understand if you decide to turn him out and let him retire, as I have done that several times myself xx
Don’t get too far ahead of yourself yet though, just see how the next couple of weeks go.

What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.

 

[DiNozzo]

What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.

Has he ever been out on huge acreage with lots of friends? If not he'll probably adjust better than you think.

If he was on his normal livery and wasn't getting to go out to parties and things I can see him going a bit flat, especially if there are other horses getting to go.

I've never retired due to injury before, so can't help with practical things, but I think lots of horses do cope with a change of circumstances, especially if it also comes with a change in environment (high acreage etc).

Whatever happens, and however it heals, you'll do the best thing for him.

 

[Michen]

Has he ever been out on huge acreage with lots of friends? If not he'll probably adjust better than you think.

If he was on his normal livery and wasn't getting to go out to parties and things I can see him going a bit flat, especially if there are other horses getting to go.

I've never retired due to injury before, so can't help with practical things, but I think lots of horses do cope with a change of circumstances, especially if it also comes with a change in environment (high acreage etc).

Whatever happens, and however it heals, you'll do the best thing for him.

Not since he was in ireland! The biggest herd I’ve had him in as an attempt was 3. He’s a bit of a nightmare turned out with other horses. He absolutely terrorised every gelding we tried him with bar one. Is great with mares but understandably no one wants there’s with him!! I’m sure he’d be happy in a decent herd on lots of ground though.

 

[ihatework]

A couple of years ago some good friends of mine took on, for the owners a top competition mare (retired) who was very high maintenance through her years in competition life. Had to be entertained and kept busy etc. Upon retirement they tried multiple times to get her in foal. Not happening. Having been adamant she wouldn’t settle into out 24/7 in a herd and wouldn’t be happy they conceded to try and she came to stud. She let down, learnt not to be reliant on humans and had 2 foals in consecutive years. She arrived needing to be led everywhere in a bridle and left wandering around like a donkey in a headcollar.

Ive seen multiple top end competition horses settle similarly.

But you are fastforwarding too far. You are not into retirement territory yet. He just needs time out to chill and heal.

 

[Michen]

A couple of years ago some good friends of mine took on, for the owners a top competition mare (retired) who was very high maintenance through her years in competition life. Had to be entertained and kept busy etc. Upon retirement they tried multiple times to get her in foal. Not happening. Having been adamant she wouldn’t settle into out 24/7 in a herd and wouldn’t be happy they conceded to try and she came to stud. She let down, learnt not to be reliant on humans and had 2 foals in consecutive years. She arrived needing to be led everywhere in a bridle and left wandering around like a donkey in a headcollar.

Ive seen multiple top end competition horses settle similarly.

But you are fastforwarding too far. You are not into retirement territory yet. He just needs time out to chill and heal.

I really hope so. I’ve trawled through lots of twitter eventing posts around manica injuries and so many seem to have had to been operated on for a chance of coming sound.

I can only bloody pray that he will be an exception and time will work for him and this injury.

ps yes agree, I’m sure he would settle and be fine, in truth it’s me that it would be more heartbreaking for to not be interacting properly with him every day.

 

[ihatework]

Well I wouldn’t rule out an op if he needs one. Arthroscopy presumably is quick and fairly low risk. If there is something to tidy up it would be worth doing.

 

[ITPersonnage]

What scats said - how many horses have a GA in a typical vets practise every day ? I know you had a horrific experience but try to be logical about it I know it's so hard - but really try and let go of that bad memory. You trust your vet and he does sound one of the good guys But if you can't face it I'm sure Bog will adapt to the herd life too. It sounds like you have some hard thinking and I feel very sorry as you tried so hard to get everything right but it sounds like you have the time to sleep on it a few times.

 

[Red-1]

I do think that Basil was a fluke injury with GA, if I recall correctly, you suspected that the bone was already damaged before he went in.

It is, of course, your prerogative as to whether he has an OP or not, but the chances of a similar incident are really small.

Love to you all.

 

[milliepops]

What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.

I thought all of this about Millie but she is bossing retirement and is totally happy to watch the rugby pitch next door, or spy on the neighbours, or chase her companions around, snooze, commandeer the shelter, root around in the hedge - you name it, they are just horses when all is said and done and she went from being a busy competition horse to a retiree very easily. When I appear she will come and see if I've got anything or if I'm providing scratching services and then bugger off when she gets bored of me.

But like IHW I would do the op.

 

[Michen]

Thanks guys. Yes Basil had a kick to leg that didn’t show a fracture but there must have been one.

I think the stats are something like 1% fatality in recovery. It just feels like an unnecessary risk when he could just retire to the field. Urgh, I don’t know.

 

[Michen]

Yep 1%.

 

[Jeni the dragon]

Huge, huge hugs. Really hoping for some recovery before the vets next visit.

 

[DiNozzo]

Thanks guys. Yes Basil had a kick to leg that didn’t show a fracture but there must have been one.

I think the stats are something like 1% fatality in recovery. It just feels like an unnecessary risk when he could just retire to the field. Urgh, I don’t know.

Do yourself a favour and don't google the stats/stories. You've got you're own horror story and you don't need to hear others.

Have a glass of wine, calm down and have a good think about the specific worries you have- is it a reaction to the drug? Getting back on their feet? Write up a list of each specific worry (and they are all valid!) and go back to your vet or whoever it will be doing a possible surgery.

Ask them first if it needs to be done ASAP or if it can wait until a period of rest has had time to heal it, and then ask about each thing on your list, and see how they can mitigate against those risks and then make your decision after that.

 

[SEL]

Thanks guys. Yes Basil had a kick to leg that didn’t show a fracture but there must have been one.

I think the stats are something like 1% fatality in recovery. It just feels like an unnecessary risk when he could just retire to the field. Urgh, I don’t know.

You were incredibly unlucky with Basil - but even retirement to a field has its risks and if there is a chance Bog could become sound following the op then surely its worth a shot? Perhaps take a deep breath and ask your vet what he thinks the prognosis is for his ridden career if he does have the op?

I'm sure he would be fine in a field of retirees. Mine were turned away over winter a few years back with a motley collection of resting polo ponies, ex racers and random retirees. They were all pretty feral and very happy. My 2 would come up to see whether there were snacks when I visited but otherwise you'd just see them grazing in their various cliques.

 

[ycbm]

I'm really sorry you're in this position Michen. My two penn'orth, for what it's worth.



You're one arduous rehab part done and now another to be started again with no guarantee of success.

You're terrified of losing an animal you love to a GA, which is a known and far too high risk to easily take, especially when you have already lost one that way.

You would prefer never to ride him again than to lose him to complications from an operation, never mind one which has no guarantee of success.

This second injury raises a strong possibility of a fundamental weakness in that, or both, hind fetlock(s) that suggests a future ridden career is likely to be either be short or very low key, if it is possible at all.

You're out of insurance funds in a perilous market for the employment sector you work in, and though this is the bottom rank of your concerns, it still matters.



All that is perfectly understandable.




In your shoes, I would find a big safe field full of ponies, throw him into it for a year and then see where you are.

.

 

[Michen]

Thanks. I don’t think it shows a fundamental weakness as such (before the injury I mean) in that it would be reflected in the other limb too, because the nature of the injury suggests a trauma/whack. I am fairly convinced he did it in a hole on the hunting field. The original injury has healed really well and still is intact which is great, and I suppose IF the second injury is an adhesion then who knows. It seems odd to me if it’s not related, because you’d have thought the original injury would have still been fragile enough to also be affected by whatever movement/thing that caused the new one. But it was fine on the scan? Doesn’t make sense really does it unless it is an adhesion.

Agree with the rest though.

The money situation is frustrating. It would possibly count as a second claim, but wouldn’t know until they are in there. I don’t particularly want to spend 4/5k on an op but I don’t think it’ll be a factor in my decision making in reality. I’d spend 10k and sell Bear, lorry etc if I really thought it was the best thing for Bog. To be frank there’s no amount of money I wouldn’t spend on that horse so long as I could get my hands on it physically!!

It’s just rubbish frankly.

I'm really sorry you're in this position Michen. My two penn'orth, for what it's worth.



You're one arduous rehab part done and now another to be started again with no guarantee of success.

You're terrified of losing an animal you love to a GA, which is a known and far too high risk to easily take, especially when you have already lost one that way.

You would prefer never to ride him again than to lose him to complications from an operation, never mind one which has no guarantee of success.

This second injury raises a strong possibility of a fundamental weakness in that, or both, hind fetlock(s) that suggests a future ridden career is likely to be either be short or very low key, if it is possible at all.

You're out of insurance funds in a perilous market for the employment sector you work in, and though this is the bottom rank of your concerns, it still matters.



All that is perfectly understandable.




In your shoes, I would find a big safe field full of ponies, throw him into it for a year and then see where you are.

.

 

[JJS]

What do people do with properly retired horses though?

This is a question that those on H&H have a tendency to overthink! When I retired my (previously very active) TB x Connie at seven, the only major change in his life was that he stopped being ridden. He already lived with my other horse, and I was transitioning to them living out 24/7.

Like Boggle, Tudor was the sort of horse who liked doing things, but he still coped remarkably well. He’d been the centre of my world before his retirement, and he never stopped being that. He was groomed and fussed over as much as he’d ever been, and in all honesty, he loved his life. When I lost him in January, I never had to ask myself whether I’d made the wrong decision by retiring him, because he’d had four years of being out with his friends every day and enjoying himself immensely.

The one thing I was slightly bummed about was not being able to do some groundwork or trek type stuff with him, as he had such an active brain that I’m sure he’d have loved it. However, my boy couldn’t even have a head collar on, so a wonderful, happy life in the field it was. I think he would have agreed that there are infinitely worse fates for an early retired horse.

 

[EventingMum]

Take one day at a time is the best advice although it's very hard to do. I really wouldn't worry about retirement, we retired one of ours, he was always a very busy horse, constantly on the move even when grazing and loved being in work and out and about competing. However, he has adjusted to retirement far better than I ever hoped, initially, he would shout and gaze wistfully at the lorry if it was going out but he soon settled. He still demands to come in at night but other than that is very happy.

 

[gunnergundog]

Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.....I fully understand your aversion to a GA, BUT if that was the only option to give him a chance to be sound (as opposed to field sound), would you deny him it?

Re retiring and what to do with him......some horses take to it easily, some with a bit of management, some with a LOT of management and, maybe, some not at all. I had an 8 year old eventer - upgraded to intermediate half way through the previous season, came out next season and performance went down hill. Had 6 months box rest and then was awarded LOU. I got kicked off a couple of livery yards as when turned out he started jumping out, bonking mares and god knows what. Was tested to see if he was a rig and that was negative. I finally found him a home with an ex-MFH on a large farm where they really didn't give a toss about his antics. Previously, I was getting phone calls X times a day saying 'D has jumped out and is in the XYZ field; D has barged through the electric and is on the XC course; D is bonking A; D has rounded up the sheep; D has chased the groom that went to catch him out of the field......etc etc. That horse lived until he was 24. It probably took him six years (at least) to come to terms with his fate, Would I do it again? Probably, not.

Just to add, this was not a horse that was just turned out and forgotten. It was brought in, handled, groomed, led out etc etc. It was the only horse that I had severe problems with when coming to retirement; many others took to it like a duck to water.

HOWEVER, YOU ARE WAY TOO FAR AHEAD OF YOURSELF IN YOUR THINKING MADAM!

 

[Michen]

Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.....I fully understand your aversion to a GA, BUT if that was the only option to give him a chance to be sound (as opposed to field sound), would you deny him it?

Re retiring and what to do with him......some horses take to it easily, some with a bit of management, some with a LOT of management and, maybe, some not at all. I had an 8 year old eventer - upgraded to intermediate half way through the previous season, came out next season and performance went down hill. Had 6 months box rest and then was awarded LOU. I got kicked off a couple of livery yards as when turned out he started jumping out, bonking mares and god knows what. Was tested to see if he was a rig and that was negative. I finally found him a home with an ex-MFH on a large farm where they really didn't give a toss about his antics. Previously, I was getting phone calls X times a day saying 'D has jumped out and is in the XYZ field; D has barged through the electric and is on the XC course; D is bonking A; D has rounded up the sheep; D has chased the groom that went to catch him out of the field......etc etc. That horse lived until he was 24. It probably took him six years (at least) to come to terms with his fate, Would I do it again? Probably, not.

Just to add, this was not a horse that was just turned out and forgotten. It was brought in, handled, groomed, led out etc etc. It was the only horse that I had severe problems with when coming to retirement; many others took to it like a duck to water.

HOWEVER, YOU ARE WAY TOO FAR AHEAD OF YOURSELF IN YOUR THINKING MADAM!

Thank you xx is it denying him though? If he would be happy retired surely it’s just putting him at risk for my own personal gain because I want to carry on riding him? I don’t know

 

[doodle]

Having lost one in a GA I don’t think I could do it with another of my horses no matter what the potential outcome. I lost Soli to a fence incident and still constantly panic about fences.

 

[Michen]

What happened with your? Sorry to ask.

Having lost one in a GA I don’t think I could do it with another of my horses no matter what the potential outcome. I lost Soli to a fence incident and still constantly panic about fences.