HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[JJS]

Well I discussed with ex (vet) OH today. Good to get an off the record second opinion although he’s not seen the scans. His good friend is also part owner of a large referral hospital and they have spoken to their surgeon who specialises in the tenoscopy procedures and I have his number to discuss with him tomorrow.

I have a lot to think about. I can’t see how the scan will show an improvement whilst he’s being turned out. I’m going to gather as much info as I can and see.

Now I may need to think seriously about selling Bear to pay for Boggle- I REALLY don’t want to sell Bear ?. Oh what a funny rollercoaster of emotions eh.

What a horrible situation to be in. I really hope you can find a solution that works for you and both of your boys. Have got everything crossed for you, Michen ??

 

[Caol Ila]

What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.

This all sucks. I have a horse who can't be turned out with others and has some neuroses about turnout and loves doing things with humans, and that was the nightmare scenario -- an injury that would have required her to be retired young. What do you do with a horse like that? I never had an answer and thank god, never needed one. At her age now, the answer is obvious. But it used scare the hell out of me.

Don't know if Boggle is as 'unretirable' as Gypsum, and I know you're understandably freaked out by GA, but I would speak to the vets and consider the surgery if there was a good chance of a positive outcome. For Gypsum at eight or nine or whatever, it would have been worth the risk. What other option was there?

Boggle might not be as neurotic, in which case retirement isn't daft, but it sounds like he has some similar quirks.

 

[Rosemary28]

No advice to offer Michen, just wanted to say how sorry I feel for you with all this going on! Thinking of you and your wonderful boys.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

OP, I haven’t posted until now as have been hoping for good news.

I’m a great believer that animals come into our lives at certain times for a particular reason. Could it be that Boggle can’t be “fixed” and that he could be retired. Bear may have been brought into your life to be your next ridden horse and Boggle will learn to be retired.

Could it be that having the hope Boggle could be fixed is adding more stress to your situation and making you stay a bit more distanced from Bear?

It would be such an incredibly awful situation if you were left pining for Boggle if he ended up retired and you had sold Bear, I think you would really miss Bear too.

I don’t like to give a “if it was me” comment, as obviously I’m not emotionally invested or in your situation but I want to give you another option to help ease some stress, I would personally think that Boggle can’t be fixed and turn him away and see what happens with him (if obviously he is sound enough to turn away) and focus on Bear for a while without thinking of selling him?

I so desperately want to wave a magic wand to make things right for you and your boys.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I haven't known exactly what to say, as I think you're handling the situation the best that you can. I've never lost a horse to GA, and haven't had issues with it thus far. Knowing me, I'd do the procedure because I'd be looking at my heart horse everyday in the field wondering if he's alright, if he feels his best, should I have tried more, and long for the opportunity to ride him again. Your thought process may be entirely different, and that's fine! You do what makes you feel best.

As for Bear, I'd hold on to him for as long as possible and continue his education.

Those are just my thoughts, but I am a complete outsider and can only begin to imagine what this must be like for you. As I said before, both are incredibly fortunate to have you. Best wishes moving forward with whatever you may choose to do.

 

[Michen]

Well I’ve rung pretty much every referral practice I’d consider sending Boggle too and spoken to a surgeon. Interesting variation on prices, minimum of 2.5k and up to 3.5/3.7k for Rossdales.

Royal Veterinary College were middle ground cost wise and that is where Andy Fiske is based (mentioned in this thread).

I’d need to budget another 1k or so in aftercare I expect. So it’s doable, but it also seems it would be another 4 months in a box for Boggle. I wish horses could talk and I could ask him what he would want, potentially to be more comfortable in the field for the rest of his days or even ridden, or take his chances and live in possible varying low- medium levels of lameness depending on what antics he gets up to? Surgeon re iterated what others have said- that these “can” be very hard to get settled on their own even without any pressure being put under it in the form of work.

Take my emotional state, money etc out of the equation- what is best for my poor bloody horse?

 

[ihatework]

For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.

 

[TheMule]

I totally sympathize. It's a very personal decision that we can’t make for you.
My old event horse was diagnosed as needing his annular ligament cut at 13, but I knew he wouldn’t cope well with the anaesthetic (I was terrified about him panicking whilst standing up, as you are) and he would have hated the box rest, plus he was impossible to do controlled walk exercise with so I turned him away instead and he did come back to work sound, but it clearly restricted him as he didn’t enjoy his eventing again so was retired from competition and became a schoolmaster for another few years. I don’t regret that decision, it was right for him.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Surgeon re iterated what others have said- that these “can” be very hard to get settled on their own even without any pressure being put under it in the form of work.

Take my emotional state, money etc out of the equation- what is best for my poor bloody horse?

Given the vet advice, I would say surgery is best for your horse. But I totally understand why that scares the sh1t out of you given your history. But I assume the risk of of GA is lower than 1% if you factor in tjhe age/health of the horse, time under etc. Can you ask your vet for an estimate of risk for Boggle?

So sorry you are going through. Given how subtle this whole thing seemed at the start, you must feel totally side swiped by it.

 

[NinjaPony]

Personally, I would go for the surgery. Boggle is still young, fit and likes to have a good run around, and I think the surgery would give him the best outcome if it all goes smoothly. Otherwise, you may find that the injury reoccurs regularly which will mean he can’t have a decent retirement. Even if you decide not to ride him again I think it’s worth doing to try and give him a good retirement. And it may be that the surgery allows you to bring him back into work, which would be the best outcome for everyone.

 

[ycbm]

This is about you as well as Bog, though Michen. You have written with such joy and excitement about hunting and eventing.

I personally wouldn't sell a good horse to give another one a chance of a long retirement.

What is the prognosis of Bog ever returning to a level of work which would satisfy your own needs?

Remember too that after spending all that money, even if he came back to full work, that horses can just up sticks and die of all sorts at any time. Spending the money, even with a great prognosis, is no guarantee of him staying around to enjoy life.

.

 

[Michen]

I totally sympathize. It's a very personal decision that we can’t make for you.
My old event horse was diagnosed as needing his annular ligament cut at 13, but I knew he wouldn’t cope well with the anaesthetic (I was terrified about him panicking whilst standing up, as you are) and he would have hated the box rest, plus he was impossible to do controlled walk exercise with so I turned him away instead and he did come back to work sound, but it clearly restricted him as he didn’t enjoy his eventing again so was retired from competition and became a schoolmaster for another few years. I don’t regret that decision, it was right for him.

Boggle is actually fine on box rest. Yes he can occasionally get lit up if there’s lots of activity but he’s not stressy in the box as a general rule, he chills out and snoozes and eats a lot now! Equally with the walking as long as it was on the yard he was always pretty much fine, I just had to make sure I timed things well.

I know he *will* cope with it. But he’s also a total twit in the field hence the second injury so I’m worried about how I’ll ever get to the point of turning him out again if I do operate.

 

[Northern]

Well I’ve rung pretty much every referral practice I’d consider sending Boggle too and spoken to a surgeon. Interesting variation on prices, minimum of 2.5k and up to 3.5/3.7k for Rossdales.

Royal Veterinary College were middle ground cost wise and that is where Andy Fiske is based (mentioned in this thread).

I’d need to budget another 1k or so in aftercare I expect. So it’s doable, but it also seems it would be another 4 months in a box for Boggle. I wish horses could talk and I could ask him what he would want, potentially to be more comfortable in the field for the rest of his days or even ridden, or take his chances and live in possible varying low- medium levels of lameness depending on what antics he gets up to? Surgeon re iterated what others have said- that these “can” be very hard to get settled on their own even without any pressure being put under it in the form of work.

Take my emotional state, money etc out of the equation- what is best for my poor bloody horse?

If I had the means to do it, and on a young horse, with a reasonable chance of recovery, it would be a no-brainer for me. Appreciate it isn't so black and white for you, but to me the pros of the surgery would outweight the cons and risk of the GA. I have done so before and would do so again. Unfortunately I dithered for too long (somewhat on vets advice as well) and the outcome wasn't successful (GA was perfectly fine though!). One piece of advice from me is to get it done ASAP and not months down the track, it may become unsalvageable as was the case with my mare. Certainly in my case, operating did give the best chance of paddock soundness, she was put down after a further paddock accident.

ETA: Having another horse to ride and distract me was a godsend, if you have the means to keep Bear alongside Boggle whilst he is recovering.

 

[ycbm]

If you do take money out of the equation, i personally wouldn't put a horse through another four months of box rest and a rehab with no explanation of how he did this further injury on pen rest.

.

 

[milliepops]

For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.

this would be my position too.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I've just caught up, I'm so sorry to hear about Boggle I cant advise on what you should/ shouldn't do as I know you will make the right decision for you both.

Such an awful situation though

 

[ycbm]

Michen I just want to add there is no wrong answer on this one, you must do what works for you.

.

 

[Michen]

This is about you as well as Bog, though Michen. You have written with such joy and excitement about hunting and eventing.

I personally wouldn't sell a good horse to give another one a chance of a long retirement.

What is the prognosis of Bog ever returning to a level of work which would satisfy your own needs?

Remember too that after spending all that money, even if he came back to full work, that horses can just up sticks and die of all sorts at any time. Spending the money, even with a great prognosis, is no guarantee of him staying around to enjoy life.

.

The stats from the new injury are something like 80% return to full work. If he hasn’t re torn his original injury with the immense amount of twatting around in the field he’s currently doing (which makes me want to sob, frankly) I would say his chances for that one must be pretty good too. At this point however I have ZERO expectations.

Honestly I don’t mind. Of course I love the eventing and hunting but I’d already ruled out hunting him again. At this point as long as he’s around and I see him every day and he can hack about I’d be delighted with that! Not sure how much of a relaxing happy hacker he’d be though! If he comes sound enough to be happy in the field without it bothering him too much then that’s Money well spent too in my opinion

But I can’t put him in the field if he’s going to have flare ups of being 4/10 lame for the rest of his life. So even if the op just brings him field sound and comfortable then that’s got to be worth considering, at least? I can’t just wait and see as the build up of scar tissue will make it impossible to then fix in a year or so.

My back is basically up against a wall.

This horse has done everything I’ve ever asked of him and more. He’s saved my arse out hunting so many times, and other people’s and he’s done nothing but try his absolute best for me out competing. If all my 3.5-4K gets me is him being comfortable in the field then I am very happy to spend the money to give him that.

 

[Bellaboo18]

For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.

There's no right answer but this is what I'd do.

 

[milliepops]

If you do take money out of the equation, i personally wouldn't put a horse through another four months of box rest and a rehab with no explanation of how he did this further injury on pen rest.

.

i didn't think this was an unknown? didn't he just prat about when he started turnout? my horse did the same injury turning awkwardly in the field. it's shitty luck but I don't think it affects his chance of recovery when I believe Michen had indicated that the original injury had been healing well.

I get the point about how do you restart turnout, been there.. i don't think there's an easy answer but this is why I have always tried to get mine doing plenty of work before putting them back in the field after a rehab, so they are already standing up to a degree of strain.

 

[Michen]

i didn't think this was an unknown? didn't he just prat about when he started turnout? my horse did the same injury turning awkwardly in the field. it's shitty luck but I don't think it affects his chance of recovery when I believe Michen had indicated that the original injury had been healing well.

I get the point about how do you restart turnout, been there.. i don't think there's an easy answer but this is why I have always tried to get mine doing plenty of work before putting them back in the field after a rehab, so they are already standing up to a degree of strain.

He pratted about and the vet things he could have stood on a stone and sort of flipped his fetlock back, a rut or whatnot and done it. I feel like an idiot as there were some big ish stones in his sectioned off field but I didn’t even really notice them.

it’s possible it’s very connected to the original injury and is an adhesion, which would be a good thing I suppose as it makes sense and isn’t something new as such. I think vet thinks this is likely despite the new thing being quite far away from old thing, because the old thing is still intact and looking good.

 

[scats]

You’ve had lots of good advice Michen, so I won’t get too involved in that as your head is probably spinning as it is but if I were you I would try and keep hold of Bear if you can. You love riding and you do a brilliant job bringing youngsters on and sometimes you need that little ‘hook’ to keep you going while a different horse is going through box rest or rehab or whatever. I’ve always made sure I had a horse to ride whenever I’ve had had 1 or 2 others out of action (at one point I had 2 out at one time with soft tissue injuries from field gymnastics..) I honestly don’t think I could have done it otherwise as my mental health is so closely entwined with the horses that I would have been a in a really dark hole.
I understand finances may come into play if you need the money for Boggle’s surgery, but if you can, for you, try to keep hold of Bear.

 

[Michen]

You’ve had lots of good advice Michen, so I won’t get too involved in that as your head is probably spinning as it is but if I were you I would try and keep hold of Bear if you can. You love riding and you do a brilliant job bringing youngsters on and sometimes you need that little ‘hook’ to keep you going while a different horse is going through box rest or rehab or whatever. I’ve always made sure I had a horse to ride whenever I’ve had had 1 or 2 others out of action (at one point I had 2 out at one time with soft tissue injuries from field gymnastics..) I honestly don’t think I could have done it otherwise as my mental health is so closely entwined with the horses that I would have been a in a really dark hole.
I understand finances may come into play if you need the money for Boggle’s surgery, but if you can, for you, try to keep hold of Bear.

Thank you. I can keep hold of Bear for now in reality, in the sense that I can release the funds without needing to sell him. If the shit hits the fan in some way of course I’d need to re consider, life can through curveballs, but as things stand I don’t NEED to sell him.

Tbh, I sort of have the money for the op, it was just meant to pay off a credit card which I was really looking forward to doing ?.

 

[Michen]

Think this pic sums it up really, me being an idiot hunting 5 weeks post op for a broken ankle. There’s Boggle just standing quietly watching the rest of the field go off whilst I wait until the mad rush is gone so I can just pootle about at the back. And this is a horse under normal circumstances that Is immensely hard to hold on the hunting field.

That’s a best mate for you, 4K for him to retire (or not) as healthy and pain free as possible is absolutely nothing. IF it’s what’s right for him. That’s the bit I need to work out for sure!

 

[NinjaPony]

I totally understand where you are coming from. If I could fix my pony of a lifetime with money, I'd rob a bank and sell a kidney for him. Not rational, but he is irreplaceable. Unfortunately that's not the case for me. Really wishing you the best, you know your pony best and you need to trust your own instincts about what is right for him. You will make the right choice.

 

[Michen]

For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.

Yes I think RVC would be my first choice if I do it.

I've asked them to revert on the cost of the dye diagnostic tool he does, which should help indicate how successful or not a surgery is likely to be.

 

[gunnergundog]

If you have decided who you want to do the surgery, that's fine, but if you are just looking at prices at the moment make sure that you get a full list of everything that the price does and does not include. It's amazing how a cheap price that doesn't include dressings, post-op x-rays/scans, in-hand walking etc etc can end up more expensive than the top priced one.

Also, when it comes to rehab I would suggest that you look to somewhere that has specialist facilities and is equipped to do the job rather than try and go it alone. Yes, it means letting go but sometimes you have to in the short term in order to give the horse the best possible chance.

 

[Michen]

If you have decided who you want to do the surgery, that's fine, but if you are just looking at prices at the moment make sure that you get a full list of everything that the price does and does not include. It's amazing how a cheap price that doesn't include dressings, post-op x-rays/scans, in-hand walking etc etc can end up more expensive than the top priced one.

Also, when it comes to rehab I would suggest that you look to somewhere that has specialist facilities and is equipped to do the job rather than try and go it alone. Yes, it means letting go but sometimes you have to in the short term in order to give the horse the best possible chance.

Yep I did clarify that.

I don’t think a specialist rehab yard is necessary as I had no trouble rehabbing his box rest and walking element myself (bar leaving the yard hacking which required dope). I would want to do it myself and ensure it’s done to the letter, I wouldn’t send him off anywhere for that aspect unless it was crucial to his recovery for some reason. I don’t feel there’s anything anyone else can do walking and box rest wise that I can’t. But I would need to re think what I would do with him when the time comes to be turned out again.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Yep I did clarify that.

I don’t think a specialist rehab yard is necessary as I had no trouble rehabbing his box rest and walking element myself (bar leaving the yard hacking which required dope). I would want to do it myself and ensure it’s done to the letter, I wouldn’t send him off anywhere for that aspect unless it was crucial to his recovery for some reason. I don’t feel there’s anything anyone else can do walking and box rest wise that I can’t. But I would need to re think what I would do with him when the time comes to be turned out again.

I think if he really is being a prat in the field I would have him back in or change his routine, one of mine was actually better on complete box rest the turnout in a small field seemed to blow his brain, when he was healed I would dope him and just put him out while I could keep an eye on him and it would only be for for a few hours tops, what really helped as well I made a small fenced pen outside his stable on concrete he happily stood there eating hay never ever freaked out, I am not saying you have done anything wrong you may just have to do something different to keep him calmer, it's an absolute nightmare knowing what's best when they have to have turn out after a box rest period I know I have been through it a lot with several different horses.

 

[Michen]

I think if he really is being a prat in the field I would have him back in or change his routine, one of mine was actually better on complete box rest the turnout in a small field seemed to blow his brain, when he was healed I would dope him and just put him out while I could keep an eye on him and it would only be for for a few hours tops, what really helped as well I made a small fenced pen outside his stable on concrete he happily stood there eating hay never ever freaked out, I am not saying you have done anything wrong you may just have to do something different to keep him calmer, it's an absolute nightmare knowing what's best when they have to have turn out after a box rest period I know I have been through it a lot with several different horses.

I know I knew he'd be a prat, which is why we did an extra month nearly where he went in a straw filled pen in a different area of yard (pen no longer there now). I tried him in small field very close to stables, but too much activity. So put him right down the end (5/10 min walk from yard), with Bear and other quiet horses. Still a prat.