HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[palo1]

The stats from the new injury are something like 80% return to full work. If he hasn’t re torn his original injury with the immense amount of twatting around in the field he’s currently doing (which makes me want to sob, frankly) I would say his chances for that one must be pretty good too. At this point however I have ZERO expectations.

Honestly I don’t mind. Of course I love the eventing and hunting but I’d already ruled out hunting him again. At this point as long as he’s around and I see him every day and he can hack about I’d be delighted with that! Not sure how much of a relaxing happy hacker he’d be though! If he comes sound enough to be happy in the field without it bothering him too much then that’s Money well spent too in my opinion

But I can’t put him in the field if he’s going to have flare ups of being 4/10 lame for the rest of his life. So even if the op just brings him field sound and comfortable then that’s got to be worth considering, at least? I can’t just wait and see as the build up of scar tissue will make it impossible to then fix in a year or so.

My back is basically up against a wall.

This horse has done everything I’ve ever asked of him and more. He’s saved my arse out hunting so many times, and other people’s and he’s done nothing but try his absolute best for me out competing. If all my 3.5-4K gets me is him being comfortable in the field then I am very happy to spend the money to give him that.

It's really hard and I am really hesitant to comment in all honesty but if this were my horse (and I have no insurance and would be quite reluctant to spend that sort of money tbh!!) I would go for the op. Boggle is young, his earlier injury appears to have healed well which is great, the stats for the success of the op are excellent (in equine terms), you love riding him and that would be your preference. IF the op is successful as could be expected Boggle could return to a really decent level of work which would be fantastic and is at least a strong possibility in that scenario. The GA is a worry and I would not usually consider a GA - especially for colic or for a horse over about 10 y/o but we all have different feelings about that. If he can't be ridden after the op he may well be field sound and have a retirement that is comfortable at the very least. Without the op you may not be able to be confident that he is comfortable over any period of time. I would personally struggle with retiring such a young horse , potentially for many years, especially if I was not confident he was comfortable and heartbreaking though it would be (I know, I have had to do this for a young horse whose injury could not resolve) if that were the case I would let him go after having had a lovely time for a while but I can understand how difficult a decision that might be. But the op would give you and him more options and more time. If the very worst happened during the GA or in recovery, I would feel that I had been doing my very best to get the right outcome. I think the chances of disaster during the GA under these circs are small enough to justify what could be an excellent outcome. It seems, from the research you have done that the op provides the statistically best option for him.

The cost is not absolutely vast and never-ending and if you leave him be, he could go on re-injuring that injury which in itself will cost you in emotional and possibly financial terms too. There are no certainties with horses sadly and they cannot tell us whether another few months of box rest is too much, or whether they will behave when turned out. I would also be planning to do as much as possible to mitigate him being a twerp when released from box rest - is mild sedation possible?

None of this however is from the perspective of your emotional position, nor your fear of the GA or multiple other things that only you can mentally square up. You really have to be as comfortable as possible with whatever decision you make and you know Boggle best.

 

[Michen]

It's really hard and I am really hesitant to comment in all honesty but if this were my horse (and I have no insurance and would be quite reluctant to spend that sort of money tbh!!) I would go for the op. Boggle is young, his earlier injury appears to have healed well which is great, the stats for the success of the op are excellent (in equine terms), you love riding him and that would be your preference. IF the op is successful as could be expected Boggle could return to a really decent level of work which would be fantastic and is at least a strong possibility in that scenario. The GA is a worry and I would not usually consider a GA - especially for colic or for a horse over about 10 y/o but we all have different feelings about that. If he can't be ridden after the op he may well be field sound and have a retirement that is comfortable at the very least. Without the op you may not be able to be confident that he is comfortable over any period of time. I would personally struggle with retiring such a young horse , potentially for many years, especially if I was not confident he was comfortable and heartbreaking though it would be (I know, I have had to do this for a young horse whose injury could not resolve) if that were the case I would let him go after having had a lovely time for a while but I can understand how difficult a decision that might be. But the op would give you and him more options and more time. If the very worst happened during the GA or in recovery, I would feel that I had been doing my very best to get the right outcome. I think the chances of disaster during the GA under these circs are small enough to justify what could be an excellent outcome. It seems, from the research you have done that the op provides the statistically best option for him.

The cost is not absolutely vast and never-ending and if you leave him be, he could go on re-injuring that injury which in itself will cost you in emotional and possibly financial terms too. There are no certainties with horses sadly and they cannot tell us whether another few months of box rest is too much, or whether they will behave when turned out. I would also be planning to do as much as possible to mitigate him being a twerp when released from box rest - is mild sedation possible?

None of this however is from the perspective of your emotional position, nor your fear of the GA or multiple other things that only you can mentally square up. You really have to be as comfortable as possible with whatever decision you make and you know Boggle best.

This is a really thought provoking post tbh and sort of where I am at. My biggest fear now is I retire him with no op, he is not sound even in field, then it's too late to operate and I have to consider putting him down. That's not an option if there is any amount of money that could be spent even if it was ONLY to make him field sound.

If I do this op, I will be doing it with the expectation and hope that it makes him comfortable in the field at the very least.. even if it doesn't fix him enough to do any ridden work. Anything else then would be a brilliant bonus.. so set the bar low I guess?

I think I've made up my mind guys. I actually want to speak to my vet asap as I'm not even convinced at this point that another £250 on a scan is worthwhile in 10 days, the referral hosp would probably do their own scan so I wonder if it's better to save the money and do that there. Even if it shows signs of healing I have still read of very very few cases where its properly healed successfully on its own.

 

[ester]

fwiw I would op.

 

[palo1]

This is a really thought provoking post tbh and sort of where I am at. My biggest fear now is I retire him with no op, he is not sound even in field, then it's too late to operate and I have to consider putting him down. That's not an option if there is any amount of money that could be spent even if it was ONLY to make him field sound.

If I do this op, I will be doing it with the expectation and hope that it makes him comfortable in the field at the very least.. even if it doesn't fix him enough to do any ridden work. Anything else then would be a brilliant bonus.. so set the bar low I guess?

I think I've made up my mind guys. I actually want to speak to my vet asap as I'm not even convinced at this point that another £250 on a scan is worthwhile in 10 days, the referral hosp would probably do their own scan so I wonder if it's better to save the money and do that there. Even if it shows signs of healing I have still read of very very few cases where its properly healed successfully on its own.

I suspect that IF things went as expected with an op your highest risk is when you get to turnout stage and I would personally delay that for as long as possible. It would be very hard emotionally possibly but that is what you may have to do to get a decent outcome with this horse. As Milliepops has said, it is possible to have a horse doing a decent level of work having shown almost complete healing before you trust them in the field. Perhaps factor in keeping Boggle stabled extensively until his injury is effectively not a factor and then consider a programme of sedated turnout? It would be a barsteward if the op and recovery went brilliantly only for him to knacker himself again when turned out! Difficult for you.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

OP, I’m glad that you feel you have reached a decision. Lots of great advice on here.

I think it’s safe to say, whatever the final decision, we will certainly all be here to support you and Boggle and there will be lots of positive vibes sent to help you both. x

 

[DabDab]

Sorry to hear about Boggle M

I would feel the same as you I think - if there was even a chance of field sound I would get the op. I'd do what you can to cling onto Bear too though, until Bog's prognosis is a bit clearer. Obviously don't put yourself in financial difficulty, but making more money is easier than feeling like you haven't done everything to help a horse who owes you nothing, or replacing such a nice young horse as Bear

 

[Michen]

So er... I’m an idiot. Just had an hours call with Andy at RCV (lovely lovely man btw!), and after 15 mins we realised we were talking different structures. Boggle has injured his digital manica not his manica flexoria although they are similar/do the same sort of thing but Boggles is below the fetlock.

Andy has NEVER seen or heard of one with this injury. He had to drag up a case study to find one. He said most vets wouldn’t even know the structure exists!!! That it would be a super rare thing to happen which does make the theory of it being an adhesion even more likely as otherwise it’s just so bizarre and frankly ridiculously bad luck.

He said in principal it should be as successful op wise as a manica flexoria, but obviously can’t give any success rates because he doesn’t know anyone whose even done one. But he did say try the conservative treatment first.. let the steroid work and do it’s thing. He also said he’d want to get the horse back under saddle and ramp up the work inc trot etc to make sure he was still saying sound and it was truly settled- to make sure if surgery was required it could be done sooner rather than later because if it ISN’T adhesion related you really want it tidied up ASAP rather than scar tissue forming. He also said you can’t operate on a horse that’s had steroid for four weeks anyway.

Oh and in his experience MRI is quite a poor diagnostic tool for connective tissue and tendon sheath issues btw- hence the invention of contrast radiography which has proven more reliable. He actually said he would really want to be convinced that the digital manica really is the problem it’s so unusual, so the contrast radiography may not be a bad idea to make sure we are on the right track (so ycbm a good suggestion actually- albeit a more whacky diagnostic tool!).

So this is somewhat shocking I guess my plan was never to be putting Bog’s original injury under any pressure other than walk, he was meant to be chilling out but we sort of need to know either way.

My head is absolutely spinning I don’t know what to think.

 

[maya2008]

Lots of sympathy - my girl did the more usual manica a few years ago. Prognosis was full return to work after operation. It took six months before it no longer swelled in the field if she ran around, and I did not ride for that time. She’s been enjoying life under saddle since.

She did op then box rest then out in a big field - she repeatedly jumped out of her pen!

I hope you get some answers soon.

 

[Michen]

Lots of sympathy - my girl did the more usual manica a few years ago. Prognosis was full return to work after operation. It took six months before it no longer swelled in the field if she ran around, and I did not ride for that time. She’s been enjoying life under saddle since.

She did op then box rest then out in a big field - she repeatedly jumped out of her pen!

I hope you get some answers soon.

Thank you this is good to hear. Surgeon did think it would be likely to be a similarly good prognosis.

I sort of don’t mind Bog going back in a box because I know he can cope mentally and he’s having the next four weeks in a field regardless, so it’s not continuous. If it makes him comfortable for the rest of his life it’s got to be worth it.

 

[Jayzee]

Really feel for you. From reading all the replies it sort of sounds as though you have made up your mind.

I know that if it was me and the horse in question was such a special horse to me. If I did not have the op done then I would always be questioning whether I should have operated, especially considering the outcome sounds pretty positive (appreciate that it is a very uncommon injury)

 

[muddy_grey]

Sorry you are going through all this. After her ddft op my mare didn't go out in anything more than a pen (about 2 1/2 times stable) until she was cantering under saddle. I knew she would be an idiot and was happy on box rest so we decided it would be better. Might be worth considering if you go for the op

 

[IngramsRoughDiamond]

So er... I’m an idiot. Just had an hours call with Andy at RCV (lovely lovely man btw!), and after 15 mins we realised we were talking different structures. Boggle has injured his digital manica not his manica flexoria although they are similar/do the same sort of thing but Boggles is below the fetlock.

Andy has NEVER seen or heard of one with this injury. He had to drag up a case study to find one. He said most vets wouldn’t even know the structure exists!!! That it would be a super rare thing to happen which does make the theory of it being an adhesion even more likely as otherwise it’s just so bizarre and frankly ridiculously bad luck.

He said in principal it should be as successful op wise as a manica flexoria, but obviously can’t give any success rates because he doesn’t know anyone whose even done one. But he did say try the conservative treatment first.. let the steroid work and do it’s thing. He also said he’d want to get the horse back under saddle and ramp up the work inc trot etc to make sure he was still saying sound and it was truly settled- to make sure if surgery was required it could be done sooner rather than later because if it ISN’T adhesion related you really want it tidied up ASAP rather than scar tissue forming. He also said you can’t operate on a horse that’s had steroid for four weeks anyway.

Oh and in his experience MRI is quite a poor diagnostic tool for connective tissue and tendon sheath issues btw- hence the invention of contrast radiography which has proven more reliable. He actually said he would really want to be convinced that the digital manica really is the problem it’s so unusual, so the contrast radiography may not be a bad idea to make sure we are on the right track (so ycbm a good suggestion actually- albeit a more whacky diagnostic tool!).

So this is somewhat shocking I guess my plan was never to be putting Bog’s original injury under any pressure other than walk, he was meant to be chilling out but we sort of need to know either way.

My head is absolutely spinning I don’t know what to think.

Was it Andy Fiske Jackson you spoke to? He is bloody brilliant, he operated on my mare last year and was so amazing, he put up with all my insestant questions, my worrying and all my questions when I bought her back into work. He is the nicest vet I have ever dealt with and you would never know anything had ever happened to my mare, she recovered ? with no scaring at all.

 

[Michen]

Was it Andy Fiske Jackson you spoke to? He is bloody brilliant, he operated on my mare last year and was so amazing, he put up with all my insestant questions, my worrying and all my questions when I bought her back into work. He is the nicest vet I have ever dealt with and you would never know anything had ever happened to my mare, she recovered ? with no scaring at all.

Yes- lovely guy. He’s emailed me a few times since I think he finds it quite an interesting case!!

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Always handy to have a vet who is really interested in your case. Much more likely to go the extra mile to get it sorted. He sounds an excellent vet.

 

[Michen]

Always handy to have a vet who is really interested in your case. Much more likely to go the extra mile to get it sorted. He sounds an excellent vet.

Yes exactly. My own vet is equally brilliant. I rang him in absolute despair yesterday because of Boggle twitting around- sent him a trot up video and the lameness hasn't got worse so he says carry on turning him out if I can try and mitigate him being an idiot.

So I'll be going up to the yard about 8/9pm, doping him and then turning out. Then bringing him in by 6am before anyone else on the yard has been up. Yay Boggle, thanks for being such a turd. The alternative is he goes back on box rest but I really want him to have this time out for the next month especially if there's more box rest on the horizon for him.

 

[J&S]

Very best wishes for this next phase! x

 

[splashgirl45]

fingers crossed he behaves....

 

[Michen]

Oh my goodness Bear tonight! He’s been schooled twice for 20 mins each time by Boggles jockey. I got on him tonight for a hack and he was a different horse, I couldn’t get any sort of softness or bend from him whatever I tried before today. He was soft, flexible, taking the bit forward and down for a stretch when I asked. Still a bit mouthy but not in a resistant way. Finished with some white foam! His trot was incredible I could quite literally feel him suddenly powering from behind.. He was an absolute joy to ride. We came off a stoney track and he suddenly went super lame, my heart sank but got off to find a huge stone wedged in shoe and frog. He stood like an angel for me to climb back on (haven’t got on him from ground before) I’m gobsmacked at the difference from two schooling sessions and it makes me want to school him myself now- I’m going to- tomorrow!!!

He’s cheered me up hugely. Also suddenly gone more bum high- think he’s going to end up pretty big. Pics, and Boggle at the end of course because he is the most beautiful of them all


Thoroughly cheered up and even more determined to keep hold of Bear for the foreseeable. Keep your fingers crossed for a deal at work to come in this month and it’ll cover Boggles op if he has it/needs it.

Ps I know he’s porky but not too bad, right? Vet saw him a couple of weeks ago.. he’s been muzzled since.

 

[chaps89]

Aww. I'm glad he's behaving himself and going well. His front end has a bit of catching up to do doesn't it!

 

[Michen]

Aww. I'm glad he's behaving himself and going well. His front end has a bit of catching up to do doesn't it!

Really does but he just feels so powerful already!!

 

[Michen]

Bear really has missed his calling working cows in Montana!

 

[Michen]

Am just at a loss here guys Doping Bog and turning him out late eve, coming in early. He’s generally chilled but has the odd buck and canter around his small paddock because, well that’s just him. His leg (actually, both legs) is still very slightly swollen and today (having had the first little burst of energy around his field I’ve seen in a week), the bad leg has heat in it. I emailed my vet and this is his response.

I have no idea WTF to do tbh. I can’t turn him away with active inflammation like this and my vet was as keen for him to be out as I was so I know he won’t have said bring him back in unless he thought it was really necessary. He is the most playful/active horse ever it could do so much damage pissing about in a herd. I am assuming his digital manica will be the same on scan in two weeks and then I need to decide whether to op, which at the moment feels like my only choice. But even then, like the specialist says NO one has really seen or operated on the digital manica only the manica, in theory it should be the same principal but it’s basically the unknown in terms of that exact structure.

I feel like I’m failing this horse on every bloody level at the moment. I’m damned if I do and if I don’t. Turn him away and if it doesn’t heal on its own it makes operating even harder with less chance of success and I could have a horse that’s constantly lame even in the field- I’m absolutely terrified that the way this is going he’s not even going to be field sound. Operate and no one can really know whether it’ll help.

I’m gutted tbh I just wanted him to have the next few weeks in a field before a decision had to be made but now he can’t even have that.

 

[DabDab]

Hugs M, it's rubbish x

I have no real advice, and don't know what I would do if in the same situation...probably go for the op sooner rather than later before the summer dwindles....it's such a tricky situation with him seemingly incapable of paddock rest with aggravating whatever it is that's going on

 

[splashgirl45]

so sorry things are not going well for boggle, hugs xx

 

[OldNag]

That's just rubbish. I hope he starts to improve soon x

 

[shortstuff99]

There was a post on the forum earlier which seemed to be about the same injury but a year down the line. Might be worth messaging the OP? Will see if I can find it

 

[shortstuff99]

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/update.792062/#post-14343289

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I agree with just doing the op as soon as possible. At least, IMO, if you do the op you know that you tried the best option. It could go well, and if/when you do the op, I really wish the best for you and Bog.

I know the heat is concerning in the one leg, but if they're both a bit swollen, could it be the weather and lack of activity? I've noticed if my guy does more standing around than usual and it's particularly hot and humid (Idk your current weather) he stocks up a bit.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

Oh OP this is awful, I have nothing useful to add but just wanted to say I really hope he is doing better soon. You’re not failing him, you are such a diligent and caring owner, sorry it’s such a testing time, I will hope for brighter days for you soon.

 

[Tiddlypom]

This is just bum news, Michen. You’re trying so hard with Boggle.

I’m going through it with my homebred - initially thought to be minor issues, but one thing after another keeps showing up. I’m giving her another few months with more joint injections, good farriery and chiro vet interventions, but I know that I may well have to let her go in the end.

Its bloody pants. I hope that you can fix Boggle, and that he stays fixed.