HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[Michen]

Your latter paragraph is why I would say avoid situations that have the potential to become a battle wherever possible, as he stands a good chance of winning and that could reinforce the nappiness (if that makes sense). If he doesn't have reason to tank off in the first place, he won't have the chance to learn it as a good evasion technique. I don't think that you need to go through and win this sort of battle in order to properly train him - the best approach is to avoid the battle in the first place!

As an example, when I worked as an SJ groom we were sent a nice 4 year old for producing. He had been backed, but it soon became very clear that he had learnt to rear vertically as an evasion technique! He would do it on the lunge and under saddle and you couldn't win the battle as he would just get sillier and sillier and rear higher if you kept trying to push him through it. So my boss got him on the long reins and spent a month long reining him all over the farm, as for some reason he didn't rear on the long reins. By the end of the month he seemed to have forgotten all about the rearing, and they were able to get back on him without any problems. He never did it again and was sold for a substantial amount of money as a 6 yr old. The rearing was incredibly dangerous behaviour and it was a battle that my boss knew would be very hard to win. So he avoided situations where the horse could rear as an evasion technique, and he just grew out of it. With older horses where the behaviour is already entrenched it can be different, but youngsters do seems to forget and grow out of things fairly easily if you give them a chance.

Yep makes lots of sense! Thanks for writing that out. I guess I felt once it had started with the spin/tank we had to work through it to make sure it was resolved. Sort of like when I decide to start having a sort out of my kitchen draws- you wish you hadn’t

It’s definitely a learning experience bringing on Bear having bought on Bog. In some ways Bog was easier but just more scarey to ride! This is only my second youngster so all a learning curve...

 

[ihatework]

He sounds similar to my big horse who was angelic 99% and the 1% would have a bit of a meltdown over something innocuous. He was a funny mixture of a bit of an introverted worrier but with a glint of a cheeky welsh streak too, so it was a bit difficult to gauge if he was taking the piss or if it was his worry pot overflowing.

He never got hit. Ever.

I could however stop him spinning, but when doing that he would go into reverse and get a little light in front.

When he had a meltdown it was just a case of taking the adrenaline out of it and just sitting it out, praising for and forward thought and just giving him time to breathe and do the right thing. Whist gritting teeth and calling him names under breath. Thing is, once they aren’t expecting a bollocking and don’t then put up a fight, they end up coming back to planet earth quicker.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It really is a fine line here. Every once in awhile my horse would come across something and just say NO. Or he'd have a moment of being barn sour and not want to be ridden away from the stable alone. He'd put it in reverse, spin, hop up in front, pirouette, piaffe, and put on a real show. However, really getting after him with my whip escalated things. Instead I calmly sit there. Relaxed my seat and breathed. I do try to block him from the side he is spinning to with my leg and rein. Real calm, not kicking or whipping. I just sit there calmly (ok maybe sometimes I laugh at his dramatics) and wait it out. If he stops and stands still. I'll take pressure off for a second and let him absorb what is happening. When he stands calm, I ask for forward again. If he goes into spin mode, I repeat the process. I praise when forward happens. He does go forward because my patience outlasts him and in his heart he is a bit lazy so gives up on the effort. He's never won, he's never gotten his way. He's always ended up going where I wanted to go. But once in a blue moon he'd play that card. Never worked for him, and he'd proceed on like nothing happend, so seemed to be much ado about nothing really.

Sometimes I think adding aids such as a whip or strong leg to the situation overwhelms them. Yes, they need to ultimately go forward and do as you say, but there can be a bit of finesse to it. You have to wind them down, not up. They see it as it being no big deal, the panic wears off, and they go on. If they lose their calm, you have to keep yours.

 

[Michen]

He sounds similar to my big horse who was angelic 99% and the 1% would have a bit of a meltdown over something innocuous. He was a funny mixture of a bit of an introverted worrier but with a glint of a cheeky welsh streak too, so it was a bit difficult to gauge if he was taking the piss or if it was his worry pot overflowing.

He never got hit. Ever.

I could however stop him spinning, but when doing that he would go into reverse and get a little light in front.

When he had a meltdown it was just a case of taking the adrenaline out of it and just sitting it out, praising for and forward thought and just giving him time to breathe and do the right thing. Whist gritting teeth and calling him names under breath. Thing is, once they aren’t expecting a bollocking and don’t then put up a fight, they end up coming back to planet earth quicker.

Makes sense. I will definitely try that from the outset next time and see where it gets us.

It is tricky as I genuinely did not feel it was anything other than naughtiness the first and second time. I could quite literally see his eye and I’d have hand on heart said it was a cheeky youngster taking the piss and trying a new “thing”. And he did respond to the strong aids in the sense he didn’t get upset or wound up, he just went “yeah ok then”. Albiet it took two repetitions each time. So I expected the same today- just assuming this was a Bear try on.

If he hadn’t have spun and tanked I wouldn’t have been so firm but I really felt that if I didn’t strongly send him forward I’d have ended up back at the yard, and pausing to let him look just gave him the opportunity to go again.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I do think the running thing is an added complication. In my post above, the horse is not a runner - that'd be too much effort on his part.

 

[Michen]

I do think the running thing is an added complication. In my post above, the horse is not a runner - that'd be too much effort on his part.

Yes, that is or rather was his default. It was the same in hand- try and piss off if there’s something he doesn’t like. It transpired under saddle to an extent as well and I have spent months and months long reining and ground work to make sure that he understands when something upsets him he must stop and not run. And it’s been really successful- so perhaps I was over reacting to this as it also felt like a setback? A spin and stopping would have felt very different to a spin and trying to tank off down a slippery hill. It’s easily stoppable- he only gets a few horses lengths away.

 

[Auslander]

Hmm interesting. Maybe I'm a bit overly firm then- I just see spinning and tanking as completely unacceptable behaviour hence using strong aids to correct. But possibly I'm overly sensitive on it due to Boggle young behaviour.

What if you are on your own with the 4yo out hacking in that scenario and can't rely on a lead horse?

I'd still go for the sit and look scenario - let him have a think about stuff, and process it in his head before quietly suggesting that he tiptoes past it.

I don't reward (pats/voice/etc) for looking at scary things - it's counterprodutive, as it validates the scariness. A quiet pat once they've walked past the object of certain death is reward enough.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Don't stress if there are the occasional "setbacks" In my experience, training a young horse isn't always so linear. There are ups, downs, and fine times in between.

 

[Laurac13]

I'd have hopped off and led if I'd been on my own, maybe it's a bit of nappiness, but even if it is that stems from insecurity. I'll also sit on for a bit as long as it's safe to do, let them look and weigh it all up for a while although I'll correct them if they go to spin or something. I dont think battling them past something "scary" helps in the long term, if it's a permanent fixture the more you dominate him past it the scarier the whole thing becomes for him

I totally agree I’d have lead him past the scary thing, I used to do this with Merlin when he was 4

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think I've written this on another thread, but I have had dismount and lead past fail. Hard. So really know your horse. This actually made the horse I did this with more nervous.

 

[Michen]

Indeed, and he's being a really super boy 99% of the time.

I had to smile at Boggle though, he made no effort to follow, just stood there watching the drama like an old pro basically rolling his eyes. Yet usually it's Bear babysitting him At 8 years old- might he be beginning to grow up...?

 

[Michen]

I think I've written this on another thread, but I have had dismount and lead past fail. Hard. So really know your horse. This actually made the horse I did this with more nervous.

Yes and I'd be nervous doing that with Bear as although it's been many many months since he made any attempt to piss off in hand, I'd be concerned that I could lose him if he decided to give it a go. More control on board.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I might just chuck another idea into the mix as I see you werent riding him. If he was the nervous type and has now settled down with you on him and around him, maybe he just didnt get quite the same queues from your friend the first hack she did on him and then the second day his brain just reverted back to how he was at the beginning with you?

Horses are funny creatures though. My boy still hasnt got over going past a log in a field (that he will happily jump!) without going 6 foot sideways. Can not for the life of me work out why, but least I am prepared for it these days and can avoid leaping so far we end up in the crops.

 

[Michen]

I might just chuck another idea into the mix as I see you werent riding him. If he was the nervous type and has now settled down with you on him and around him, maybe he just didnt get quite the same queues from your friend the first hack she did on him and then the second day his brain just reverted back to how he was at the beginning with you?

Horses are funny creatures though. My boy still hasnt got over going past a log in a field (that he will happily jump!) without going 6 foot sideways. Can not for the life of me work out why, but least I am prepared for it these days and can avoid leaping so far we end up in the crops.

So my friend was softer on him when he span than I was if I'm honest. She is a lovely, quiet rider and turned him back around and used a leg aid etc but he kept going and going. I think she did eventually use the stick on his shoulder to try and keep him straight but at that point I could see it was getting upsetting (front feet coming off the floor) so we swapped- actually we got him past using Boggle then went back down the hill (other side), then swapped and went back out again.

When he did it with me initially at the weekend my aids were very quick, very strong and forward from the offset. Not to actually get him past it, but to get him back into the position he was in before spinning and tanking which in turn he then sort of made the decision to go past himself- the strong aids were more of a correction of "you are not going to spin and tank" rather than a "you are going past this" if that makes sense? As once the former was sorted it naturally fixed the later. It was all over in less than a minute. If I'm honest I thought that would be the case when I got back on him today. But even when I got on today and he repeated the behaviour and I applied the same aids that had worked for me previously, it became evident that it had become too much of a "thing" by that point.

It's possible that he felt an opportunity having not been reprimanded for it quite so much for it yesterday than he was at the weekend, that he then pushed harder today. Or it's possible he just felt it was scarier today!

 

[Michen]

Ps I should add- friend rides him regularly. She was Boggle's sharer so now Bear has sort of stolen her as I have glued myself to Boggle's saddle!

 

[J&S]

Was it wetter/windier today? I find the weather plays a big part and also the light. The scary object will look different with/without sun etc.

 

[Michen]

Was it wetter/windier today? I find the weather plays a big part and also the light. The scary object will look different with/without sun etc.

Yes! Raining and also early morning. Bear REALLY doesn't appreciate being ridden in the morning, if he's going to be tricky it'll always be then. He loves to come in, nap and then he's ready for the day... he is a creature of habit.

 

[Caol Ila]

I have also found that smacking a horse for any behaviour related to fear or lack of confidence pretty much never works. My first horse had a PhD in balking the first year I had her. She could plant her feet and not move for love nor money, and no amount of smacking and kicking would convince her to go. The behaviour didn't *look* like it came out of fear because on a superficial level anyway, the horse appeared calm when she did it. It looked like naughtiness. "I don't wanna go on this trail ride by myself." In hindsight, though, it probably came from fear. Why should she leave the nice, safe barn to go out there with this plonker of a human she had recently acquired. Over time, we worked with a TTEAM trainer and did lots of trust-based exercises, and the balking went away, as if by magic.

It's possible that Bear's escalation came from fear. He got smacked the first time or two he balked and spun at the white snake. But even though you got him past it, he didn't conclude at that time that the white snake was harmless. I've used force to get a horse past something the first time they spook at it and balk -- almost like you startle them into it, but woe betide you when you pass that thing again. Bear might've decided that the snake was scarier than he thought initially, because he got hit and the whole experience was uncomfortable, which reinforced the scariness of the white snake. So, when you/your sharer ended up having a row with him this time, he felt that it was really quite dangerous and he needed to get out of dodge. That's more like horsey logic. Horses don't see a scary object and think, "I'm going to spook at this thing because it will be an excuse to run back to the barn, and my rider will think I'm just being afraid. Hah." They are definitely incapable of that kind of abstract logic and duplicity.

That all said, it's not that I don't apply strong aids but I also have to use tact. Gypsum will go forward from strong leg aids, but if I get after her with the whip in a situation where she's fearful, she just gets upset, and then you have a lot more spinning and airs above the ground but haven't solved anything. The forward aids are more like, "Come on, pay attention to me. It's fine, so let's go," rather than punishment. And sometimes, you have to think about plan B. The other day on our hack, a guy was feeding a swan by the lake, so the swan was in the trail. The swan hissed at us, and Gypsum spun backwards. I stopped her with seat, legs, and reins, and asked her again to go. Swan hissed, we spun. Rinse, repeat several times. Had I gone for the whip, it just would have made it all more dramatic. Anyway, I realised at this point that so long as that swan was on the trail, we were not going. No amount of force would have changed that. But then the swan shuffled into the loch, albeit it stayed at the edge. I asked her to go and she was reluctant, but responded to a strong leg aid and jogged past. Then she got lots of pats.

I've totally bailed on routes before if the horse was getting so worked up and fearful about whatever that I couldn't communicate with her and felt we were approaching a battle that I would lose. You can't train a horse that's in flight mode anyway because they're not taking in information. When I do that, though, I make sure that she goes forward a few steps before I turn her around. The horse doesn't know how far you were planning to hack. So long as you decide when you turn around, even if it's just five steps after the point where the horse wanted to turn around, you're still in control and reinforcing good behaviour.

 

[Michen]

I have also found that smacking a horse for any behaviour related to fear or lack of confidence pretty much never works. My first horse had a PhD in balking the first year I had her. She could plant her feet and not move for love nor money, and no amount of smacking and kicking would convince her to go. The behaviour didn't *look* like it came out of fear because on a superficial level anyway, the horse appeared calm when she did it. It looked like naughtiness. "I don't wanna go on this trail ride by myself." In hindsight, though, it probably came from fear. Why should she leave the nice, safe barn to go out there with this plonker of a human she had recently acquired. Over time, we worked with a TTEAM trainer and did lots of trust-based exercises, and the balking went away, as if by magic.

It's possible that Bear's escalation came from fear. He got smacked the first time or two he balked and spun at the white snake. But even though you got him past it, he didn't conclude at that time that the white snake was harmless. I've used force to get a horse past something the first time they spook at it and balk -- almost like you startle them into it, but woe betide you when you pass that thing again. Bear might've decided that the snake was scarier than he thought initially, because he got hit and the whole experience was uncomfortable, which reinforced the scariness of the white snake. So, when you/your sharer ended up having a row with him this time, he felt that it was really quite dangerous and he needed to get out of dodge. That's more like horsey logic. Horses don't see a scary object and think, "I'm going to spook at this thing because it will be an excuse to run back to the barn, and my rider will think I'm just being afraid. Hah." They are definitely incapable of that kind of abstract logic and duplicity.

That all said, it's not that I don't apply strong aids but I also have to use tact. Gypsum will go forward from strong leg aids, but if I get after her with the whip in a situation where she's fearful, she just gets upset, and then you have a lot more spinning and airs above the ground but haven't solved anything. And sometimes, you have to think about plan B. The other day on our hack, a guy was feeding a swan by the lake, so the swan was in the trail. The swan hissed at us, and Gypsum spun backwards. I stopped her with seat, legs, and reins, and asked her again to go. Swan hissed, we spun. Rinse, repeat several times. Had I gone for the whip, it just would have made it all more dramatic. Anyway, I realised at this point that so long as that swan was on the trail, we were not going. No amount of force would have changed that. But then the swan shuffled into the loch, albeit it stayed at the edge. I asked her to go and she was reluctant, but responded to a strong leg aid and jogged past. Then she got lots of pats.

I agree but to clarify- I would NEVER smack a horse that I thought was being genuinely fearful..same way I'd never smack a horse for not jumping a fence. The only reason I smacked Bear was because I didn't feel he was actually being fearful, I felt he was being a little spooky and then using that as an excuse to test out some naughty behaviour.

Obviously I may have been totally wrong and he may have been genuinely scared, so lesson learned etc.

Edited to add as properly read your post- I do think a horse can use a scarey object etc or catalyst to test the effectiveness of some behaviour. Bear is not as naturally forward thinking of Boggle, and he will "try" things. Any young horse is going to question and test at some point, and I guess I felt pretty strongly that that's what he was doing here. Not saying I got it right, I've had him 6 months and still sussing him out!

 

[Marigold4]

Yes! Raining and also early morning. Bear REALLY doesn't appreciate being ridden in the morning, if he's going to be tricky it'll always be then. He loves to come in, nap and then he's ready for the day... he is a creature of habit.

My 4 year old who has started hacking is the same. Much prefers to work in the pm after a snooze in his stable. Obviously, you don't want to end up with a horse that can only be ridden in the afternoon (!) but how about timing the easy, well-established things for the morning and more challenging activities for the pm? Just gives you best chance of success. Maybe keep hacks shorter? It's a big deal for babies to go out and see new things and can fry their little brains. I take my boy out solo for 25 mins at the mo and aim to get back while he's still feeling relaxed. He hasn't spooked at anything yet. I'm not saying you should keep to 25 mins - each baby will have its own limits - but that's as much as mine can do before getting tired and jumpy.

 

[Michen]

My 4 year old who has started hacking is the same. Much prefers to work in the pm after a snooze in his stable. Obviously, you don't want to end up with a horse that can only be ridden in the afternoon (!) but how about timing the easy, well-established things for the morning and more challenging activities for the pm? Just gives you best chance of success. Maybe keep hacks shorter? It's a big deal for babies to go out and see new things and can fry their little brains. I take my boy out solo for 25 mins at the mo and aim to get back while he's still feeling relaxed. He hasn't spooked at anything yet. I'm not saying you should keep to 25 mins - each baby will have its own limits - but that's as much as mine can do before getting tired and jumpy.

Funny souls aren't they! Tbh, I didn't really think this morning would be an issue, I thought he'd only improve on the spinning thing from there on. He's only doing short hacks when with Bog anyway (whose just gently moving at the moment) , so we were only going for a 30 min pootle around the field.

He has it very, very easy in comparison to what other 4yo on the forum are out doing- I actually think if anything his brain probably needs a bit more challenging

 

[Caol Ila]

I guess I take the view that if a horse is acting fearful, i.e. spooky or not wanting to pass a certain object, it is fearful. I don't think they are mentally capable of that kind of disingenuousness. I've had riding instructors in the dim and distant past tell me, "Smack him. He's just pretending to be scared to get out of work," but nowadays I don't believe that. I think riders can inadvertantly reinforce spookiness in all sorts of ways and make their horses even spookier, but in the horses' minds, it's not "good" v. "bad" behaviour. It's just them reacting to however they're feeling.

 

[AmyMay]

I probably wouldn't have escalated to hitting/kicking quite so quickly. I'm all for forgiving a horse who spots something and spooks/spins the first time, then letting them come back and have a good look at whatever it is. Once they've had a bit of time to process, have a good gawp, try it on a bit more, then have another look, then I'd ask quietly for forward, and allow for a bit of wiggling. I feel that if the horse over reacts, then the rider overreacts, the horse will then escalate the situation, as he's expecting a spanking, as well as being frightened of the original trigger - so the whole scenario is blown up into a crisis situation in their little brains.
I think its perfectly ok for a 4yr old to have a handhold from an older, wiser friend.

Beautifully put.

 

[Michen]

I guess I take the view that if a horse is acting fearful, i.e. spooky or not wanting to pass a certain object, it is fearful. I don't think they are mentally capable of that kind of disingenuousness. I've had riding instructors in the dim and distant past tell me, "Smack him. He's just pretending to be scared to get out of work," but nowadays I don't believe that. I think riders can inadvertantly reinforce spookiness in all sorts of ways and make their horses even spookier, but in the horses' minds, it's not "good" v. "bad" behaviour. It's just them reacting to however they're feeling.

I know what you mean. It's a hard one to call, but I do think think horses test. What happens if I do this, was it successful, did I get to go home etc. Of course that can come from an inherent insecurity and more than likely does- but I want my horses to know that spinning and tanking is not acceptable behaviour (albiet maybe I didn't correctly educate on this behaviour) if they are worried about something. I'd have been a lot less strong with my aids if it was simply a spin.

 

[palo1]

Yep makes lots of sense! Thanks for writing that out. I guess I felt once it had started with the spin/tank we had to work through it to make sure it was resolved. Sort of like when I decide to start having a sort out of my kitchen draws- you wish you hadn’t

It’s definitely a learning experience bringing on Bear having bought on Bog. In some ways Bog was easier but just more scarey to ride! This is only my second youngster so all a learning curve...

I definately agree with HR - with young horses, because I am not so young or bold as I used to be AND because I always want to avoid horses learning nasty evasions (for whatever reason) I tend to work to avoid battles. If and when something goes awry, with a 4 y/o horse I would always give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if I know that generally speaking I have done everything to help them out and that this is not a regular occurrence. If I was you I would also be wondering and trying to work out WHY Bear took on himself to have that reaction and then over-reaction.

I have had a similar scenario happen with a young horse and the thing uppermost in my mind at the time was that I absolutely did not want an escalation/recurrence etc so when the horse was in hand again (after spin and run no 1) I rode forwards as far as was possible toward the offending object and at that point did a few 'exercises' to instill the idea that I was actually in the driving seat (a few steps of rein back, a couple of small circles etc) - nothing fancy but slightly diverting. Once I had also achieved a nice sensible halt I dismounted, pretended to fiddle with tack for a moment and then led past before hopping back on. All of those were familiar things, yet diffusing the tension about 'the object' and about both of our emotional states at that moment !! At the time this was with a very sharp, clever horse that I absolutely did not want to upset or fall out with. I used this strategy several times at the age of 4 and after that never really needed to play that game again. Courage in a young horse is not endless and a good hearted horse who is trying to do the right thing can carry levels of anxiety that are not always obvious to us. You can find that just 1 thing can send them off - pouf!! into an apparantly random act of naughtiness! I agree with you too, that some evasions are totally unacceptable but how you deal with that when they occur just varies enormously. Young horses are not always rational, listening or able to cope as well as we hope for!

 

[Michen]

I definately agree with HR - with young horses, because I am not so young or bold as I used to be AND because I always want to avoid horses learning nasty evasions (for whatever reason) I tend to work to avoid battles. If and when something goes awry, with a 4 y/o horse I would always give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if I know that generally speaking I have done everything to help them out and that this is not a regular occurrence. If I was you I would also be wondering and trying to work out WHY Bear took on himself to have that reaction and then over-reaction.

I have had a similar scenario happen with a young horse and the thing uppermost in my mind at the time was that I absolutely did not want an escalation/recurrence etc so when the horse was in hand again (after spin and run no 1) I rode forwards as far as was possible toward the offending object and at that point did a few 'exercises' to instill the idea that I was actually in the driving seat (a few steps of rein back, a couple of small circles etc) - nothing fancy but slightly diverting. Once I had also achieved a nice sensible halt I dismounted, pretended to fiddle with tack for a moment and then led past before hopping back on. All of those were familiar things, yet diffusing the tension about 'the object' and about both of our emotional states at that moment !! At the time this was with a very sharp, clever horse that I absolutely did not want to upset or fall out with. I used this strategy several times at the age of 4 and after that never really needed to play that game again. Courage in a young horse is not endless and a good hearted horse who is trying to do the right thing can carry levels of anxiety that are not always obvious to us. You can find that just 1 thing can send them off - pouf!! into an apparantly random act of naughtiness! I agree with you too, that some evasions are totally unacceptable but how you deal with that when they occur just varies enormously. Young horses are not always rational, listening or able to cope as well as we hope for!

Yes this makes sense! It opens up an interesting conversation anyway.

I guess it's just about knowing your horse too, Bear is quite a tricky one to suss out. I keep saying it but really, it took ONE occasion of him pulling back in hand and buggering off for him to really suss out that he could. The last thing I want is for him to think he can spin, tank and that it's acceptable.

But I agree, I think on this occasion there needed to be a workaround, so that the behaviour didn't happen in the first place.

 

[palo1]

Yes this makes sense! It opens up an interesting conversation anyway.

I guess it's just about knowing your horse too, Bear is quite a tricky one to suss out. I keep saying it but really, it took ONE occasion of him pulling back in hand and buggering off for him to really suss out that he could. The last thing I want is for him to think he can spin, tank and that it's acceptable.

But I agree, I think on this occasion there needed to be a workaround, so that the behaviour didn't happen in the first place.

Well part of the problem with Bear may be that he has quite a 'pony' brain - designed to be VERY quick off the mark mentally, if not quite so much in a ridden sense. Ponies are DEVILS for finding their own path through life...!! I have found the pony mind-set to be really quite different to a 'horse' brain (which is probably more where Boggle's head is at by the sounds of it). In any case, it doesn't matter as you know Bear best and yes, he has learnt that he might be able to tank off in some situations; probably for both cheeky and confidence reasons. I would in all honesty expect that he might do it again but you will be ready for him next time and can think of a strategy that you can deploy. I genuinely don't think smacking will make any positive difference at all tbh - I can't imagine that he is frightened of you, but it probably will piss him off more than anything and make him less likely to want to work with you. Even if he is utterly WICKED, he probably doesn't realise how bad he is being either.

If he is a naughty blighter in hand I would suggest a long (12-14 ft) strong lead rope/rope halter that you might ride with under the bridle for a bit; it will give you tons more scope if you need to have him in hand. Anyhow, you will be able to think of a way to deal with this and it doesn't sound like he has a long 'flight' away or one that is unstoppable. Those are things to be grateful for!!

It really won't be long before you look back at this and just wonder - ''Did he really used to do such daft things?'' !!

 

[Michen]

Well part of the problem with Bear may be that he has quite a 'pony' brain - designed to be VERY quick off the mark mentally, if not quite so much in a ridden sense. Ponies are DEVILS for finding their own path through life...!! I have found the pony mind-set to be really quite different to a 'horse' brain (which is probably more where Boggle's head is at by the sounds of it). In any case, it doesn't matter as you know Bear best and yes, he has learnt that he might be able to tank off in some situations; probably for both cheeky and confidence reasons. I would in all honesty expect that he might do it again but you will be ready for him next time and can think of a strategy that you can deploy. I genuinely don't think smacking will make any positive difference at all tbh - I can't imagine that he is frightened of you, but it probably will piss him off more than anything and make him less likely to want to work with you. Even if he is utterly WICKED, he probably doesn't realise how bad he is being either.

If he is a naughty blighter in hand I would suggest a long (12-14 ft) strong lead rope/rope halter that you might ride with under the bridle for a bit; it will give you tons more scope if you need to have him in hand. Anyhow, you will be able to think of a way to deal with this and it doesn't sound like he has a long 'flight' away or one that is unstoppable. Those are things to be grateful for!!

It really won't be long before you look back at this and just wonder - ''Did he really used to do such daft things?'' !!

Oh no he is perfect in hand now- this was back in March! Could lead him around with just a rope around his neck I did tons of work with a parelli halter and a 14ft rope which he was in any time he was being led for about 3 months. Never needed it since Unless I put it on under the bridle and attach reins to it

 

[suebou]

A musing.. took both my boys for a hack this morning. Friend on Bear me on Bog. To get out hacking you go up a steep grassy track that runs between two fields. Recently there’s been a big coil of white tape left by the fence and most horses have had a look. Bear first saw it at the weekend and was in front of a big hack group. Grabbed the bit and span, got firm use of stick and leg, span again, got whacked (rightly or wrongly) and then went. Did the same again with friend on Monday but went 3rd time. Today however he massively escalated it, tanking off down the hill, spinning and even lifting his front feet off the ground for good measure. He absolutely would not go and friend getting worried. We swapped horses and i also found it was a real battle- I’m not a weak rider but Bear is immensely physically strong and really sets his neck against you. It was physically impossible to stop him spinning. No amount of stick and leg would drive him forward (and I had a stick in both hands!) Behaviour getting worse and worse and unpleasant on a sloppy steep track and Bear himself getting really upset.

So a change of tact, asking him to go past alongside Boggle and then slightly in front and then building it up (we must have done the loop about ten times) until he was going past it on his own happily enough. This was successful, horse went back to being reasonable and responded well to lots of praise and a softer approach.

Bear hasn’t in 6 months said “NO” like that to something he’s been worried about He will usually always go second time. Made weirder by the fact he had been past it twice. In my mind the horse has to go however worried and that sort of behaviour isn’t acceptable and has to be worked through, but it was escalating so much the change of tact to a softer approach felt like the only thing to do.

Would you have done this or would you have absolutely insisted the horse goes past it as asked- in front of the other horse? Bearing in mind this is a usually very rational, reasonable 4yo but with a cheeky streak and will absolutely try it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Personally I would have insisted he went past on his own as asked in normal circumstances however much of a battle/escalation it took, but the steep slippery hill made it feel verging on dangerous hence trying the alternative approach.

I guess we all have our different ways but interested to hear what yours would have been- and what would you have done if you were on your own without a lead horse? ?

Absolutely Right, they must ALWAYS go forward when asked(obviously if safe) especially at 4. People not insisting on this is why there are 000’s of nappy, spooky horses with people going ‘ooh, he doesn’t like bins/ditches/drains/flowers whatever’
You can tell I am old and currently fixing a fat cob with no manners......apparently he’s sensitive!

 

[IrishMilo]

Absolutely Right, they must ALWAYS go forward when asked(obviously if safe) especially at 4. People not insisting on this is why there are 000’s of nappy, spooky horses with people going ‘ooh, he doesn’t like bins/ditches/drains/flowers whatever’
You can tell I am old and currently fixing a fat cob with no manners......apparently he’s sensitive!

There is a balance. How would you have dealt with Michen's situation given she admitted the bossy tactic actually made things worse? I've never seen a situation of a horse being scared where giving it a wallop did anything other than escalate the problem. I find if you sit quiet for a minute and let them look, they'll usually either chose to investigate it on their own accord, or walk past with no dramas, rather than pee off in the other direction.