HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[Michen]

The sole shot reminds me of similar pathology of my mare’s fronts - long stretched slender frog, prone to thrush despite dry environment /bedding etc - bars weak and rounding, not functioning as they should.

I, at the time, followed ‘hoof mapping’ by an well-know. american farriery company…my mind is blank on their name! However - this is difficult to explain but they pointed out that a long stretched frog isnt the true apex of the real frog within the hoof and particularly the tip of the frog get’s stretched at the sole level, which then impacts sole growth around this ‘false frog tip’ and continued to cause a long tie, forward heel shape.- so via ‘hoof mapping protocol’ measurements are taken to show where p3 currently is and where it should end up. The ‘false frog stretched tip ’ gets trimmed back.

I’ve found pictures to illustrate what i mean on the laminitis site under ‘true apex of frog’ section:

https://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-a-z.html

When i trimmed the tip of my mares long stretched frogs back to where they should be, within weeks her sole and foot shape finally altered! - This was after a couple of years of battling long toes, underslung heels, trimming conservative;y for flat thin soles too etc.
The frog was holding the shape in place. Before i was trimming toes back, heels back, and the forward slung shape would regrow….sooo frustrating. Only when i read about hoof mapping and trimming that stretched tip of frog back did her hoof shape ‘ping back’ to more upright! Its like her long frogs was keeping everything in a long oval shape. Also i noted when i finally trimmed the tip of the frog back she chewed a fair bit and walked off after that trim really striding well and confidently on my compact hardcore yard surface, with stones here and there.

After that trim of the elongated frog tip i knew i had jumped a hurdle with her foot pathology, thanks to the online hoof mapping guides.

It‘s worth discussing hoof mapping with your farrier/trimmer and trimming that frog tip back. I dont have pics on this machine of my mares frogs but they were insanely long like bear’s is showing, and even skinnier at the heel than bears. Terrible frogs she had! Hoof mapping literally brought her long oval foot shape back to round normal.

Thanks so much! If anyone has any suggestions of trimmers etc please let me know and I’ll do some research. Happy to trailer him somewhere even if it’s just for a foot consult as not intending to trim the toe at the moment but I think the frog could be an interesting thing to look at for sure. Am in Hampshire but any of the surrounding counties are no prob.

 

[Wheels]

How long has he been on a bare paddock? Is it long enough to grow down that new section? There is a very clear line on one of the photos that makes me think some kind of diet change.

My connie really can't deal with much grass, turned out on a paddock for only an hour a day and he can get an event line - he is on the hard standing and arena the rest of the time and I'm going to start building a mostly non grass track to give him a bit more variety

 

[Michen]

How long has he been on a bare paddock? Is it long enough to grow down that new section? There is a very clear line on one of the photos that makes me think some kind of diet change.

My connie really can't deal with much grass, turned out on a paddock for only an hour a day and he can get an event line - he is on the hard standing and arena the rest of the time and I'm going to start building a mostly non grass track to give him a bit more variety

Hes had the shoes off for 12 weeks and he’s been in the bare paddock for 8, the other 4 weeks were the box rest.

To be honest, if he couldn’t deal with any amount of grass (my guys are on overnight turn out in summer) I’d likely have him PTS. I wouldn’t feel happy with him just being on concrete 23 hours a day on his own, appreciate you’ve got your own set up etc so it’s easier but with livery and whatnot it’s just not a feasible option. He’s at his happiest out in the field with his mate (it’s strip grazed so not a lush field!)

 

[Wheels]

Would you not consider temporarily putting him somewhere with a track or all weather turnout / winter in a barn environment or similar just for a few months to see if you could get him sound with a view to sell or loan after that?

I realise that you have already done a lot for him

 

[Wheels]

Or re BBPs thread - I'm sure there are other similar homes out there

 

[Michen]

No, I wouldn’t. The vet wants him doing some structured exercise to get the leg moving and I can see his point given the ideal was that he would by now be walking for well over an hour at the end of three months box rest by now.

The feet most likely need some decent stimulus too with boots and pads to get him hacking.

It may seem unfair but I’m not in a position to send him off for months on end on full livery to take a punt on whether being completely off grass fixes his feet. Given we should be able to get through the next month or two and then hopefully the grass will become less of an issue over winter.

I have to draw a line somewhere.

 

[HelenBack]

I'm not an expert but I think for the side shots of your photos your camera might be a bit far forward and that might be making things look a bit worse. I know when I do hoof photos I always have to have the camera further back than I'd think and I'm sure Ester said the same somewhere too (and she knows a lot more about these things than me!).

Also as a fellow Connie owner and knowing quite a few other Connemaras, I don't think those feet look particularly atypical, both in terms of the shape and the fairly poor horn quality. One farrier once told me that he didn't like shoeing Connies because however hard he tried their heels would just contract. So please try to stop being so hard on yourself about it all because it's not your fault!

If he's comfy in boots and pads then that's a great start and if you can get on top of the sensitivity issue and get him walking out on tarmac without boots hopefully you can start to make some progress. He's a lucky boy, you're doing everything you can for him and that's all anybody could ask for.

 

[Michen]

I should add, hope that doesn't seem heartless. In the last 3 months alone I've already spent nearly 3k, almost more than his purchase price on "extra" vet bills that were outside of the insurance, fancy stem cell treatment to give him the best possible chance, extra livery etc so he could keep his stable but be elsewhere for the summer.

None of this was "necessary", the cheaper option would have been to bung him in a field for the ligament to heal naturally and then sell him from the field. And I really wanted to but.... well he's still here

 

[Michen]

I'm not an expert but I think for the side shots of your photos your camera might be a bit far forward and that might be making things look a bit worse. I know when I do hoof photos I always have to have the camera further back than I'd think and I'm sure Ester said the same somewhere too (and she knows a lot more about these things than me!).

Also as a fellow Connie owner and knowing quite a few other Connemaras, I don't think those feet look particularly atypical, both in terms of the shape and the fairly poor horn quality. One farrier once told me that he didn't like shoeing Connies because however hard he tried their heels would just contract. So please try to stop being so hard on yourself about it all because it's not your fault!

If he's comfy in boots and pads then that's a great start and if you can get on top of the sensitivity issue and get him walking out on tarmac without boots hopefully you can start to make some progress. He's a lucky boy, you're doing everything you can for him and that's all anybody could ask for.

Yep I agree, I don't know any connies other than Boggle (who doesn't have perfect feet) that actually have "good" feet! My connie before had worse feet than Bear's.

I'm sure they are out there but I think they are tricky to manage.

Thank you. xx

 

[ester]

I have lol'd at the size of your bucket, both of ours would definitely get through that in 12 hours and always would have, but understand that it differed from his norm/was pink!

I do agree re. HB about the photos, your sole shot might be better for seeing where your heels are as they look better on that - you could have brushed them off though
You know what you are doing with hooves anyway, as much as I do, you just need to trust yourself a bit more!

 

[palo1]

This all sounds massively frustrating and stressful @Michen - I am sorry you are having one thing after another. Bear is very lucky that you are looking out for him. If it were me, I would start working on the leg rehab and use your sense of how he is in himself initially rather than trying to get 'everything' else perfect at the same time. The feet should respond well to work and may improve no end as you deal with that. The liver issue is tricky and might be linked to other stuff but initially it might be better to do one thing at a time and try to avoid over-thinking the very irritating but subtler problems. After all, he is pretty well in himself isn't he? He has had a fair bit of change too and there are so many things that could be causing mildly raised liver enzymes; that may resolve or not but if Bear is well then I would park that for a couple of weeks. That may not be a perfect approach I know but you do have a plan for his soundness and have spent a good amount of money on trying to sort him out so far. You could easily think things into a complete spin in this scenario and horses do sometimes get themselves in a pickle...and then out again! Many, many horses do fine with less than optimum feet - barefoot and shod and goodness knows how many horses have mildly raised liver enzymes/white cells etc etc. I am not saying to ignore those things but if they are not actively significant in where you want to go, put them slightly lower down the 'to deal with' list and review in a couple of weeks/months.

 

[Michen]

This all sounds massively frustrating and stressful @Michen - I am sorry you are having one thing after another. Bear is very lucky that you are looking out for him. If it were me, I would start working on the leg rehab and use your sense of how he is in himself initially rather than trying to get 'everything' else perfect at the same time. The feet should respond well to work and may improve no end as you deal with that. The liver issue is tricky and might be linked to other stuff but initially it might be better to do one thing at a time and try to avoid over-thinking the very irritating but subtler problems. After all, he is pretty well in himself isn't he? He has had a fair bit of change too and there are so many things that could be causing mildly raised liver enzymes; that may resolve or not but if Bear is well then I would park that for a couple of weeks. That may not be a perfect approach I know but you do have a plan for his soundness and have spent a good amount of money on trying to sort him out so far. You could easily think things into a complete spin in this scenario and horses do sometimes get themselves in a pickle...and then out again! Many, many horses do fine with less than optimum feet - barefoot and shod and goodness knows how many horses have mildly raised liver enzymes/white cells etc etc. I am not saying to ignore those things but if they are not actively significant in where you want to go, put them slightly lower down the 'to deal with' list and review in a couple of weeks/months.

Thanks Palo! His liver enzymes actually came back normal which is brilliant as there's been 3/4 occasions where he's started downing water and every time his enzymes have been up, then when he's drunk normally again they've been back down.

So very pleased with that!

And agree with everything you've said re feet.

He looks great, he's a good weight and everyone commented how well he looked in himself when he came home. He's also super happy to be home it seems, I honestly think he was bored stiff all summer, he lost his cheeky glint when I'd go visit and he's got it back now and is having great fun annoying Bog, chewing his tail, rubbing his face on his arse etc etc and watching the world go by from his huge stable!

ETA oh yeah, and practiscing his 0-60 cross country start box across stubble fields. But we will put that down as a one off.

 

[Michen]

I have lol'd at the size of your bucket, both of ours would definitely get through that in 12 hours and always would have, but understand that it differed from his norm/was pink!

I do agree re. HB about the photos, your sole shot might be better for seeing where your heels are as they look better on that - you could have brushed them off though
You know what you are doing with hooves anyway, as much as I do, you just need to trust yourself a bit more!

Thanks I think it was defo the pink bucket haha. Or pinkyboots comment about liking the "stable" water having only had a trough all summer is actually a really valid one.

I guess it wasn't unreasonable to panic when he was draining it dry though, certainly my vet was also expecting raised enzymes and we were very surprised when they weren't!

 

[Michen]

Also laughing at this thread's title- he certainly is a true "project" isn't he

 

[Michen]

Do I have the best vet in the entire world that I just found this left outside Bears stable for me!???

 

[ycbm]

.

Do I have the best vet in the entire world that I just found this left outside Bears stable for me!???

View attachment 78882

Yes, but please ignore the amount of magnesium she feeds, it's ridiculous. (3x50ml scoop, as I recall) . If it works with some horses it will only be because it's acting as an acid damper in horses with a dodgy gut, and there are better ways to do that than over loading the kidneys pissing cloudy urine.
.

 

[paddy555]

based solely on your hoof pics I don't see you will get anywhere unless you can sort the main problem ie the central sulchus. Until that is resolved the back of the foot will never strengthen nor will the contraction go nor will the toes ever come back either naturally or through trimming. Having seen this many times before I would guess that treatment is not getting down to the bottom of the cs. I would clean the cs daily with cotton wool and a bradawl until the cotton wool comes up clean and then syringe treatment in so that it gets right down to the bottom. I would also clean the co lateral grooves daily and very severely until you are down to white each time you scrape them out and initially treat the grooves and sides of the frog for a couple of treatments.
From similar feet I have treated I wouldn't expect it to take much more than a week to get the cs progressing. After that I would still thoroughly clean it daily for several months until you get it well widened.

I'm afraid I have never had much success with clean trax.

If you have not already tested for cushings have you considered TRH over ACTH as you are looking for a very accurate result in a young horse.
How reliable was your HWSD test? ie was it done by someone reliable who tested the correct horse?

 

[Michen]

Thanks, he was tested as per the connemara breed society process. His breeding alone means he cannot have it anyway.

His cushings test came back negative (today- second one). I don’t think this horse has anything metabolic in that sense to be honest, I think he’s had a rubbish year with liver and other factors and it will take a while to sort out the overall horse.

What treatment have you had success with? At the moment I’m using sole cleanse and then packing with hoof stuff.

 

[GinaGeo]

I’ve had the most success with the Kevin Bacon Hoof Solution.

Find it quicker and easier than the Hoof Stuff which I’ve never really had much luck with (everyone else seems to rate it though ?)

 

[paddy555]

Thanks, he was tested as per the connemara breed society process. His breeding alone means he cannot have it anyway.

His cushings test came back negative (today- second one). I don’t think this horse has anything metabolic in that sense to be honest, I think he’s had a rubbish year with liver and other factors and it will take a while to sort out the overall horse.

What treatment have you had success with? At the moment I’m using sole cleanse and then packing with hoof stuff.

sorry somehow missed your last line.
Once I have got to the bottom of the cs (which can take some effort) I syringe in iodine daily for 4 days. Before syringing it in I clean the cs each time until the cotton wool is clean. I also soak cotton wool in iodine and poke it in whilst soaking wet in the hope it drips down to the bottom. Doesn't matter if it comes out half an hour later.
I also "gouge" the gooves out with cotton wool pushed in with a bradawl and brush iodine in.

After 4 days of this it should be clean so it is a case of regrowing the cs.

cannot claim any credit for it sadly
https://www.hoofrehab.com/Thrush_treatment.htm

I find iodine the best to kill the infection. Desitin from e bay,, syringe from Mole valley, copper sulphate from Mole. I found it easy enough to kill the infection but this gets it to regrow and widen.

 

[bouncing_ball]

sorry somehow missed your last line.
Once I have got to the bottom of the cs (which can take some effort) I syringe in iodine daily for 4 days. Before syringing it in I clean the cs each time until the cotton wool is clean. I also soak cotton wool in iodine and poke it in whilst soaking wet in the hope it drips down to the bottom. Doesn't matter if it comes out half an hour later.
I also "gouge" the gooves out with cotton wool pushed in with a bradawl and brush iodine in.

After 4 days of this it should be clean so it is a case of regrowing the cs.

cannot claim any credit for it sadly
https://www.hoofrehab.com/Thrush_treatment.htm

I find iodine the best to kill the infection. Desitin from e bay,, syringe from Mole valley, copper sulphate from Mole. I found it easy enough to kill the infection but this gets it to regrow and widen.

Pete Ramey doesn’t recommend iodine as it’s too caustic

 

[ycbm]

Yep I agree, I don't know any connies other than Boggle (who doesn't have perfect feet) that actually have "good" feet! My connie before had worse feet than Bear's.

I'm sure they are out there but I think they are tricky to manage.

Thank you. xx

I do agree that the ones I've seen have all got long feet not round feet and will contract at the heel at the drop of a hat. When I saw the photos I thought they looked like feet that needed some miles on them, but they didn't look too bad.
.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Pete Ramey doesn’t recommend iodine as it’s too caustic

I used it the other week on one of my horses frogs as they had got really soft and I think it was a bit too harsh they looked a bit odd afterwards, I think its OK to use for a few days but beyond that I would use something else

 

[Michen]

I do agree that the ones I've seen have all got long feet not round feet and will contract at the heel at the drop of a hat. When I saw the photos I thought they looked like feet that needed some miles on them, but they didn't look too bad.
.

Except Bog who has lovely round wide feet! He’s just better at everything isn’t he ??‍

 

[paddy555]

Pete Ramey doesn’t recommend iodine as it’s too caustic

In reality I have never found that based on many years of using it.. It is an effective treatment to deal with this problem. To my mind the cs on this horse is poor and needs quickly sorting. What I have suggested is how I would have success with dealing with it.

ETA how would you deal with this problem

 

[bouncing_ball]

In reality I have never found that based on many years of using it.. It is an effective treatment to deal with this problem. To my mind the cs on this horse is poor and needs quickly sorting. What I have suggested is how I would have success with dealing with it.

ETA how would you deal with this problem

Iodine kills thrush but also kills good bacteria and new tissue growth.

I’ve had success with flossing crack with baby wipes soaked in red horse sole cleanse. Then packing with red horse hoof stuff. I’ve also used the dental syringes Pete Ramey recommends to get Desitin or red horse sole paint into the crack.

I’ve also found decent diet with low sugar and starch snd enough zinc / copper / selenium / magnesium/ sodium helps.

And feet having access to a clean dry environment.

 

[paddy555]

Iodine kills thrush but also kills good bacteria and new tissue growth.

I’ve had success with flossing crack with baby wipes soaked in red horse sole cleanse. Then packing with red horse hoof stuff. I’ve also used the dental syringes Pete Ramey recommends to get Desitin or red horse sole paint into the crack.

I’ve also found decent diet with low sugar and starch snd enough zinc / copper / selenium / magnesium/ sodium helps.

And feet having access to a clean dry environment.

I think we will have to disagree on iodine. I have never found that to be the case in practise and have had far better and quicker results than with anything else.

However the most important point with the cs in the pic on here is cleanliness. Getting it totally clean right down to the bottom and keeping it that way however you get in there.


I looked up iodine to try and find out if it did cause problems in wound healing. To me this seems to suggest it doesn't.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20619933/

I have used iodine on myself many times and also have found it did not affect new tissue growth.

 

[angel7]

I've had success with Activon medihoney smeared into every crack and crevice for 3 days then alternate days caneston cream and sudocream mixed and packed in. Antibacterial, antimicrobial, antifungal, zinc helpful extra.
Also bactakill spray was useful on a different one with spongy smelly frogs.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I found that the sole cleanse, flossing, and hoof stuff (I think it was) from Red Horse worked quite well.

 

[DabDab]

Except Bog who has lovely round wide feet! He’s just better at everything isn’t he ??‍

I'm pretty sure I remember quite a similar thread about Bog's feet back in the day