HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[Roxylola]

You never said it was a brand new hot pink bucket - that changes everything, anyone in their right mind would drink up from one of those!
Seriously though, hopefully the new bits you've got him sort him out, he seems such a nice dude

 

[Michen]

You never said it was a brand new hot pink bucket - that changes everything, anyone in their right mind would drink up from one of those!
Seriously though, hopefully the new bits you've got him sort him out, he seems such a nice dude

Well it was a stress purchase as it doesn't match his feed buckets but the shop didn't have baby blue. That'll teach me.

I'm sure Bear will be just fine one way or another generally being an ungrateful but very cute fluffy burden

 

[tristar]

calm and condition and fast fibre contain protexin for the gut, i swear by that stuff



has he been dosed for tapeworm?

 

[Michen]

calm and condition and fast fibre contain protexin for the gut, i swear by that stuff



has he been dosed for tapeworm?

He was on a little FF as a carrier this summer so good to know!

Yep all wormed and counted and even saliva tested as I love nothing more than spending money with the vet

 

[shortstuff99]

How much did he drink when you first got him to now? One of mine is a very big drinker but has been since birth so is just them, could be the same?

 

[Michen]

How much did he drink when you first got him to now? One of mine is a very big drinker but has been since birth so is just them, could be the same?

He used to drink normally and then he started downing an entire tub trug in half a day. Every time he started downing water the liver enzymes on bloods were up. Then they'd go and he'd stop.

He's only been home 48 hours but I'd stabled him for 24 and he drank 2.5 whole tub trugs which was what prompted me to panic and pull bloods- but maybe he just happened to be enjoying being back in his stable a little too much and it was a total red herring!

 

[Pinkvboots]

One of mine guzzles his stable water I think he just likes it better than the field water so waits until he comes in.

A really cheap thing I have used for years for various things often after antibiotics or some sort of illness or even just season change is Global Herbs Restore, I just use it for a few months at a time when I think they just need a little pick up, might be worth a try is not expensive.

 

[Michen]

One of mine guzzles his stable water I think he just likes it better than the field water so waits until he comes in.

A really cheap thing I have used for years for various things often after antibiotics or some sort of illness or even just season change is Global Herbs Restore, I just use it for a few months at a time when I think they just need a little pick up, might be worth a try is not expensive.

Yeah this has been directly linked to his liver through through testing when it happens.
Thanks!

 

[Marigold4]

Reading with interest as my 3 had raised liver enzymes last winter/spring and the two that have been here the longest have thin hoof walls. The one with highest levels by a long way had only just arrived and has great feet. I don't know how long the liver thing had been going on for though as I tested on a hunch that something was wrong although all 3 Had no obvious symptoms. So I'm not sure about liver enzymes causing poor hoof quality but could be symptoms from the same thing. Liver enzymes are coming down to normal but it is taking time. I am now supplementing copper and zinc in the hope that it improves hoof wall quality but only 6 weeks of that so too early to tell. My grazing is high in molybdenum according to analysis and this blocks copper and zinc. I've also been on a hoof trimming course so I can rasp inbetween trims and keep hooves in tip top condition throughout the cycle.

PS Another person locally had same thing happen with liver enzymes and same vet. No obvious cause.

 

[Michen]

Whose the idiot here then. Bucket half full after 12 hours. Vet has still come to take Cushing bloods though!

 

[Charley657]

Read this thread from start to finish yesterday, think I finished around 1am The ups, downs and twists made me determined to finish it. You were going to sell Bear, he was definitely being sold, the ad was up but I knew there couldn't be this many entries if you had. Then I thought something awful had happened to Bogle but nope. So glad he is back at work and making you happy. They are both beautiful.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Yeah this has been directly linked to his liver through through testing when it happens.
Thanks!

Oh yeah I know I just thought as he had been living out he might have just liked the water in the stable seen as his bloods were normal this time.

 

[Michen]

Oh yeah I know I just thought as he had been living out he might have just liked the water in the stable seen as his bloods were normal this time.

that is such a good point!!

 

[Michen]

Ok here goes. I couldn’t bear to post these because to be honest I feel embarrassed. I don’t know how they got into this state and how I allowed it.

ignore the wonky hairline as I trimmed it to see the growth better.

So front foot 10 weeks ago vs today (thrush is being aggressively treated). Sole pic is today though and you can see how flat and contacted they are. There is an angle change though.. clutching at straws.








And then the hinds which upset me most. If anything the heels look more under run although the surface isn’t as level as the indoor pic. Though he has lovely big frogs. ?‍

 

[Michen]

So you can see why I’m stressing. But I’m just trying to remind myself he’s had a lot going on in the last year and hopefully I can improve these. Cleantrax soak tomorrow.

On the plus side he had his first little walk hack all booted and was a happy, forward angel. I wouldn’t choose to be riding until his feet are better but it’s much better control wise than long reining (two person job and I can’t always have another person) or leading and the last thing I want is another stunt like he pulled a few months ago and him getting loose on his rehabbing ligament.

 

[ycbm]

They just aren't typical Connie feet, are they Michen? I don't know what's going on, but something is.
.

 

[Michen]

They just aren't typical Connie feet, are they Michen? I don't know what's going on, but something is.
.

Actually quite a few of the connies I know have rubbish feet- but Bear does take it to a new level.

I do think if they continued down at their new angle they would be much improved though. If I can get on top of the thrush etc then hopefully the contraction will start to improve too.

 

[shortstuff99]

He has been tested clear for HWSD I assume?

 

[Michen]

He has been tested clear for HWSD I assume?

Yep he’s of the age where they have to, plus never had any issue with separation as such.

 

[Michen]

Read this thread from start to finish yesterday, think I finished around 1am The ups, downs and twists made me determined to finish it. You were going to sell Bear, he was definitely being sold, the ad was up but I knew there couldn't be this many entries if you had. Then I thought something awful had happened to Bogle but nope. So glad he is back at work and making you happy. They are both beautiful.

Oh wow lol!! One day I’ll hopefully go back and read it and laugh, ideally when both horses are 100% sound and fit at the same time for longer than five minutes ?

Thanks so much, they both bring plenty of joy along with the stress. Ok well Bog brings a bit more but Bear makes up for it with affection ???

 

[PurBee]

Ok here goes. I couldn’t bear to post these because to be honest I feel embarrassed. I don’t know how they got into this state and how I allowed it.

ignore the wonky hairline as I trimmed it to see the growth better.

So front foot 10 weeks ago vs today (thrush is being aggressively treated). Sole pic is today though and you can see how flat and contacted they are. There is an angle change though.. clutching at straws.






View attachment 78761View attachment 78762View attachment 78763View attachment 78764

And then the hinds which upset me most. If anything the heels look more under run although the surface isn’t as level as the indoor pic. Though he has lovely big frogs. ?‍

View attachment 78768View attachment 78769

The sole shot reminds me of similar pathology of my mare’s fronts - long stretched slender frog, prone to thrush despite dry environment /bedding etc - bars weak and rounding, not functioning as they should.

I, at the time, followed ‘hoof mapping’ by an well-know. american farriery company…my mind is blank on their name! However - this is difficult to explain but they pointed out that a long stretched frog isnt the true apex of the real frog within the hoof and particularly the tip of the frog get’s stretched at the sole level, which then impacts sole growth around this ‘false frog tip’ and continued to cause a long tie, forward heel shape.- so via ‘hoof mapping protocol’ measurements are taken to show where p3 currently is and where it should end up. The ‘false frog stretched tip ’ gets trimmed back.

I’ve found pictures to illustrate what i mean on the laminitis site under ‘true apex of frog’ section:

https://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-a-z.html

When i trimmed the tip of my mares long stretched frogs back to where they should be, within weeks her sole and foot shape finally altered! - This was after a couple of years of battling long toes, underslung heels, trimming conservative;y for flat thin soles too etc.
The frog was holding the shape in place. Before i was trimming toes back, heels back, and the forward slung shape would regrow….sooo frustrating. Only when i read about hoof mapping and trimming that stretched tip of frog back did her hoof shape ‘ping back’ to more upright! Its like her long frogs was keeping everything in a long oval shape. Also i noted when i finally trimmed the tip of the frog back she chewed a fair bit and walked off after that trim really striding well and confidently on my compact hardcore yard surface, with stones here and there.

After that trim of the elongated frog tip i knew i had jumped a hurdle with her foot pathology, thanks to the online hoof mapping guides.

It‘s worth discussing hoof mapping with your farrier/trimmer and trimming that frog tip back. I dont have pics on this machine of my mares frogs but they were insanely long like bear’s is showing, and even skinnier at the heel than bears. Terrible frogs she had! Hoof mapping literally brought her long oval foot shape back to round normal.

 

[Michen]

The sole shot reminds me of similar pathology of my mare’s fronts - long stretched slender frog, prone to thrush despite dry environment /bedding etc - bars weak and rounding, not functioning as they should.

I, at the time, followed ‘hoof mapping’ by an well-know. american farriery company…my mind is blank on their name! However - this is difficult to explain but they pointed out that a long stretched frog isnt the true apex of the real frog within the hoof and particularly the tip of the frog get’s stretched at the sole level, which then impacts sole growth around this ‘false frog tip’ and continued to cause a long tie, forward heel shape.- so via ‘hoof mapping protocol’ measurements are taken to show where p3 currently is and where it should end up. The ‘false frog stretched tip ’ gets trimmed back.

I’ve found pictures to illustrate what i mean on the laminitis site under ‘true apex of frog’ section:

https://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-a-z.html

When i trimmed the tip of my mares long stretched frogs back to where they should be, within weeks her sole and foot shape finally altered! - This was after a couple of years of battling long toes, underslung heels, trimming conservative;y for flat thin soles too etc.
The frog was holding the shape in place. Before i was trimming toes back, heels back, and the forward slung shape would regrow….sooo frustrating. Only when i read about hoof mapping and trimming that stretched tip of frog back did her hoof shape ‘ping back’ to more upright! Its like her long frogs was keeping everything in a long oval shape. Also i noted when i finally trimmed the tip of the frog back she chewed a fair bit and walked off after that trim really striding well and confidently on my compact hardcore yard surface, with stones here and there.

After that trim of the elongated frog tip i knew i had jumped a hurdle with her foot pathology, thanks to the online hoof mapping guides.

It‘s worth discussing hoof mapping with your farrier/trimmer and trimming that frog tip back. I dont have pics on this machine of my mares frogs but they were insanely long like bear’s is showing, and even skinnier at the heel than bears. Terrible frogs she had! Hoof mapping literally brought her long oval foot shape back to round normal.

That is so interesting thanks! I’ve been following the Equine documentalist and there is a new hoof mapping app which looks quite cool as well. How much did you trim off? Surly you can’t just remove a whole section of it though (however little)- only the top bit?

 

[Michen]

PurBee that article is so interesting!!!

I am definitely going to discuss this with my vet and farrier. It looks so drastic, but I can completely understand it.

Did you do this yourself? Or can you recommend a very good trimmer either farrier or EP who helped you?

 

[TPO]

I know you're tackling the thrush with cleantrax etc but I highly recommend Red Horse field paste.

I had a horse with horrendous thrush ironically due to the vet insistence that he have a hospital plate or a pad fitted. Anyway, packing the central sulcus and around the frog with field paste made a massive difference within 48hrs.

I use it adhoc and anything remotely suspicious gone in 24hrs.

 

[Michen]

I know you're tackling the thrush with cleantrax etc but I highly recommend Red Horse field paste.

I had a horse with horrendous thrush ironically due to the vet insistence that he have a hospital plate or a pad fitted. Anyway, packing the central sulcus and around the frog with field paste made a massive difference within 48hrs.

I use it adhoc and anything remotely suspicious gone in 24hrs.

Ive tried the field paste most of this summer (albeit I could only see him a couple of times a week) so have recently switched to hoof stuff instead. I’ve also got artimud, sole cleanse and sole paint (although I only use that on Bog!).

I figured the hoof stuff was better as it was at least staying in longer between visits than the field paste!

 

[PurBee]

That is so interesting thanks! I’ve been following the Equine documentalist and there is a new hoof mapping app which looks quite cool as well. How much did you trim off? Surly you can’t just remove a whole section of it though (however little)- only the top bit?

The link i gave you shows a really badly laminitic foot, and that frog tip trim was drastic -bear won’t need that degree of tip trim - they could only confidently trim that much with radiographs showing the internal structures.
Yet it gives the general idea of the principles of how a long stretched frog can impeded foot shape growth. Because if you have all that excess apex frog tissue pressing onto sole it’ll affect sole growth, circulation of blood under the sole specifically where the extra long tip is pressing.

I notice on Bear’s sole also theres concavity right around the apec of the frog, then flattens out. My mare had that partial concavity too. Worse than bears for flatness - he has some concavity. Almost looks like someone has knifed out concavity there, but it’s naturally produced.

When i trimmed my mare i literally did it mm by mm…starting at the tip. I took off around 8mm because i kept finding sole material underneath. When i found frog material underneath i stopped. Where i stopped just so happened to coincide with a little chunk missing out of her frog just behind the apex - so in a way her foot/frog was trying to detach that excess tip but due to it being so dense it remained.

I had watched many videos from farriers and trimmers doing the mapping and trim and felt confident to attempt to investigate her frog tip. Im so thankful i did, we turned a corner with her hooves after that! My farriers previously would rasp walls and that was it. I was disappointed with their feet and so years ago now, delved into learning foot structures, trimming etc mainly from pete ramey and then others...so i had been trimming them for a long time and felt confident to map her hoof and investigate frog apex trim.
I wouldnt recommend anyone do it without knowing the hoof structures inside out and having confidence/experience with tools etc!

Now i’ve done it and understand the principles a trimmer and farrier will be able to investigate whether the tip is over sole material by cutting off literally a mm of tip material. There’s either frog under there or sole. 1mm removal doesnt hurt the horse. Yet there’s no need to guess when you have a foot infront of you that should be round and its more oval with a long toe and very long frog - that stretched forward pathology is easy to spot.

Bear may not need an apex trim - i am only going by 1 photo, which looks long oval rather than round with subsequent long frog. He may just need toes taking back and that’ll help de-contract heels, widen frog heel, and all is well.
His frog tip looks ‘strong’ i will say that, despite long - maybe the camera angle /lens is distorting the true hoof shape - only with hoof in hand can that be fully assessed.
The ‘trim toe back’ approach i did with my mare to decontract her heels, and help p3 breakover - over and over i did that, and her fronts would not let go of that long toe area until i approached a frog apex trim. So if his front feet have always been oval, consider hoof mapping protocols and frog tip trim. It’s good to have that bit of knowledge in your arsenal about frog tips when dealing with the long toe/ underslung heels type of hooves.


You want a good trimmer who you can discuss hoof mapping with - many EP folks should have heard of it and a fair few farriers i imagine. There’s youtube videos on ‘hoof mapping’ you can forward to your trimmer/farrier. Im not uk based so maybe theres uk members on here who can recommend a great farrier or EP who is welcoming of hoof mapping?
If you have feet x-rays that’ll make the remedial trim job very easy.

 

[PurBee]

PurBee that article is so interesting!!!

I am definitely going to discuss this with my vet and farrier. It looks so drastic, but I can completely understand it.

Did you do this yourself? Or can you recommend a very good trimmer either farrier or EP who helped you?

BTW - that article was just to demonstrate the frog ‘true apex’ principles and logic behind it. The trim they show in the pictures is very drastic, having trimmed all the length of the frog , aswell as frog apex, and trimmed the sole of that laminitic foot, which i don’t advocate trimming to that degree the whole frog or sole. Im more of the ‘less is more’ camp than strasser type trims.

 

[angel7]

Having read through all this I will chuck in my thoughts....
The feet are rubbish cos the liver was compromised for a period and the horse has been out of work, lack of stimulous. Now sore feet and altered angles, toes look long to me.
I would take a simplistic approach, remove ALL supplements, they can be causing more harm than good to a compromised liver, kidney and hind gut. They are making work for the body to metabolize. Sometimes we really overcomplicate things. Supplements are not the answer to everything.
Feed good grass and some good quality grass nuts if grazing poor/ monoculture. Nothing else.
Trim the toe and frog back to reduce breakover and shoe to the new angle of growth at the top of the foot. This will allow more growth and give you some thing to trim back in few weeks. If hes more comfie in shoes, keep shoeing - many horses for whatever reason cannot be barefoot to do the work we ask of them. NO shame in it and doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the horse.
I wouldn't consider this amount of water excessive. If anything its less than I expect. Its been warm variable weather dry this summer for us especially overnight, perhaps he is just more thirsty / bored and its a coincidence with the liver timing. Some days I am thirstier than others. 1 tubtrug would not be enough for many horses I 've had, some drank 60litres a day some 3 litres and many vary day to day.

You might be in the rabbit hole of looking for answers you cannot find.
Uncomplicate it. Go back to basics. Many people have kidney and liver problems with no obvious cause and the function varies over time with no long term effects and they live long healthy lives.

 

[TPO]

I agree with the strip everything back but not trimming the toe back (for shoes or bf).

The palmar aspect of the hoof is weak because the frogs and heels are compromised. Movement should be comfortable for a horse and correct i.e. heel first landing.

IMO Michen is doing the right thing by tackling the thrush.

I know boots were discussed elsewhere but I can't remember if that was for Bog or Bear. Regardless I'd boot (& possibly pad using EP pads) to get comfortable movement. This should enable the heels to decontract and the frog to beef up (along with thrush treatment).

No problem with shoeing of a healthy hoof but I can't see a positive to shoeing just now. In a lot of cases shoes causes contracted heels and weakened frogs and shoes are removed to allow the horse to recover.

As an aside there's a series on h&c TV about getting horses fit. In it the team GB farrier talks about pulling shoes because horses need time out of shoes to recover from shoes. He acknowledges that shoes compromise hooves and that all horses should have time out of them to recuperate. So it's not just a "hard-core bf" thing to say that shoes damage hooves.

Stripping everything back is a good shout and agree that a compromised liver will of course have affected hooves.

I really feel for you Michen. Being conscientious is hard going!!

 

[Michen]

Morning! Thanks both. I definitely am not going to shoe at the mo. It would be so easy but can’t see how those feet can improve in shoes He’s in Bogs boots whilst I await the arrival of some cavallos. They’ve got the 12mm pads in them and he’s comfy and striding out. A bit big but fine for a day or two. His track to the field is mostly grass where he’s comfy, bar a few metres of dirt/stone which he is careful over but I’m ok with that.

Also TPO I completely agree re the toe, I tried trimming and he went very sore, I had this with a TB where the back of the foot just wasn’t strong enough. It’s going to be a slow process but I think the toe will naturally come back when he’s ready to do a little road work bare.

I just hacked him on his own around the field and was thinking how worth all the trouble he is, rush hour and on the other side of the hedge metres away is a very busy road. So much traffic, huge rattling lorries coming by at 60mph and he was perfect. He’s been ridden twice since having 3 months off. How many 5 year olds can you just hop back on like that and hack alone?

Anyway, horses are great levellers as a bird then flew out of the hedge and he did a sharp right and accelerated across the stubble field holding the bit firmly between his teeth.

Ahh Bear ? Still the boots stayed on ? and I returned with a smile as he really is 99% of the time such a lovely hack!