Hobbles- would you? Do you?

[flyingfeet]

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.

Yes and the correct training and schooling involves hobbles!!

Some already come prewired to think the situation through and decide not to panic, others have full on flight response. I can hobble train a horse in around 10 minutes usually, how long does it take you?

 

[Mince Pie]

"place reliance on your human..........waits for a human to fix the problem"

Scientifically speaking, you are imbuing the horse with abilities and intelligence is simply doesn't have. There is not one scientific study that a) has shown that the horse is able to conceptualise humans in this way, b) has that level of intelligence whereby it can problem solve to such a high level (wait for a human to fix the problem, etc.)

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.

Really, but we do that in many different ways all the time:

*trust the human that this ditch does not contain a horse eating monster.
*trust the human that you will not drown in this puddle.
*trust the human that this loud noisy thing will only cut your hair and not you.
*trust the human that this loud rustly thing on your back is not a predator.
*trust the human that this smoking metal thing will not burn your feet.

Need I go on?





I have never hobbled but have never had the need to.

 

[Twilkolock]

I'd start by trying to break down the behaviour as not one answer will fit all. When, where, what behaviour etc, in order to determine whethers it's fear, annoyance, habit etc, that causing it?

Does the horse kick in the trailer? Kicking out is usually seen as threatening behaviour to warn off competitors for food, etc, and kicking can occur when the horse percieves its in a stressful environment (I think a trailer is a pretty scary environment for a horse.) It can become a habit reaction to annoyance at being stressed while travelling. These behaviours become learnt/habit as they're reinforcing (you may have stopped when she/he kicked.)

Some horses kick at fixed objects to make a noise because it generally gets a reaction and may even remove what's stressful/annoying (ie, you've stopped or taken her out, perhaps.) So, if you cover the trailer surfaces with thick rubber matting (to include all sides, etc) it may reduce the noise and prevent injury. What about a calm companion? Lots of hay? Any toys that could be hung up? Anything that reduces the stress, keeps her entertained and calm.

 

[stilltrying]

I'd start by trying to break down the behaviour as not one answer will fit all. When, where, what behaviour etc, in order to determine whethers it's fear, annoyance, habit etc, that causing it?

Does the horse kick in the trailer? Kicking out is usually seen as threatening behaviour to warn off competitors for food, etc, and kicking can occur when the horse percieves its in a stressful environment (I think a trailer is a pretty scary environment for a horse.) It can become a habit reaction to annoyance at being stressed while travelling. These behaviours become learnt/habit as they're reinforcing (you may have stopped when she/he kicked.)

Some horses kick at fixed objects to make a noise because it generally gets a reaction and may even remove what's stressful/annoying (ie, you've stopped or taken her out, perhaps.) So, if you cover the trailer surfaces with thick rubber matting (to include all sides, etc) it may reduce the noise and prevent injury. What about a calm companion? Lots of hay? Any toys that could be hung up? Anything that reduces the stress, keeps her entertained and calm.

Only used to paw at the floor in trailer when moving, when on the way home, never on way there, and only when alone. Never kicked out with back legs just lots of bashing with front legs. Always had plenty to eat, tried a trailer mirror for 'company'. Trailer had rubber matting on walls and floor. Didn't want to stop as didn't want horse to think pawing = stopping. Think i pulled over once as i though he was going to turn the car. I opened the jockey door and he was there ears pricked, one hind leg resting looking chilled as anything!

For our safety i chose to hobble him, it broke the cycle (assuming it was habbit) and that was about 4 or 5 years ago. He's never done it since.

I really dont see the issue, just like you would tie a horse up so it can't wander off...i tied his legs together so he knew he couldn't wave them in the air.

 

[Twilkolock]

Mince pie....."*trust the human that this ditch does not contain a horse eating monster.
*trust the human that you will not drown in this puddle.
*trust the human that this loud noisy thing will only cut your hair and not you.
*trust the human that this loud rustly thing on your back is not a predator.
*trust the human that this smoking metal thing will not burn your feet."

In my opinion it isn't 'trust' that the horse is showing but rather 'learnt responses'. Through negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, trial and error learning, and classial conditioning, the environment shapes what a horse learns and thus its behaviour. Humans behavious is shaped like this too.

Horses really have only a limited capacity to problem solve (that's why their feet do the talking to take flight) and trust is a word I would apply to humans rather than horses. Horses simply respond to their environment based upon how they have experienced it.

Learning through negative reinforcement is really subtle and most of us are not aware of when it's taking place (for humans and animals alike.) You mentioned clipping....everytime the horse throws it's head up and removes the hand/clipper is it rewarded and motivated to repeat the behaviour because the unpleasant stimulus has been removed. If the person keeps the clipper in place for just a fraction longer and doesn't 'reward' the head tossing [and then removes the clipper when the head is still even if it's just for a split second as timing is crucial] the horse has learnt that their head tossing behaviour is not rewarding. I wouldn't call this trust therefore, - I would call this a learnt response.

 

[Twilkolock]

I guess it depends upon what type of behaviour you want to tackle.

Immobilizing the feet [to stop the flight response] can take minutes if you've got a long rope and a long whip handy.
Counter-conditioning to 'un learn' a fixed behaviour can take days.
Desensitization can take longer if you're trying to overcome the fear response.

One of my concerns with hobbles is that it can provoke an extreme fear response which is then hard to get rid of. However, I do accept that you use it with success so we may have to agree to disagree!

 

[Brandy]

I haven't used them on any of mine but it was fairly common practice at a dressage yard I worked at. We had a young stallion - and he used to jump out, he was only turned out once a week (yes I know....) and it was a half mile walk down the track to the field. I would either have to put the hobbles on in the stable, and lead him out in them - not a great idea....

OR!!!!

Lead him out, then try and get the hobbles on before letting him go. Hmm.

Still didn;t stop him jumping out, he cost the owners a bloody fortune and I used to stand there crapping myself as he cantered round the four fields hopping over fences merrily......

My welsh kicks the ramp of the trailer sometimes when travelling. I just should out of the window at him.

 

[only_me]

Does the horse kick in the trailer? Kicking out is usually seen as threatening behaviour to warn off competitors for food, etc, and kicking can occur when the horse percieves its in a stressful environment (I think a trailer is a pretty scary environment for a horse.) It can become a habit reaction to annoyance at being stressed while travelling. These behaviours become learnt/habit as they're reinforcing (you may have stopped when she/he kicked.)

Some horses kick at fixed objects to make a noise because it generally gets a reaction and may even remove what's stressful/annoying (ie, you've stopped or taken her out, perhaps.) So, if you cover the trailer surfaces with thick rubber matting (to include all sides, etc) it may reduce the noise and prevent injury. What about a calm companion? Lots of hay? Any toys that could be hung up? Anything that reduces the stress, keeps her entertained and calm.

Sorry but LOL

My last horse was a right pain in the butt when standing at a show. He would paw and paw due to bordem. He always had a haynet when stood tied in lorry. There is no way I am going to buy or borrow a companion pony to travel with as tbh then horse would become reliant on the companion to travel which is also a right pain in the butt and wouldn't want him to have seperation anxiety from when I take horse out to ride and leave companion on lorry!!The lorry was all rubber btw, from the half wall down and floor. I think he liked the noise!!

Have tried other methods of re-training but not very easy when trying to catch them in a confined space. So hobbles are a good and effective way of preventing the pawing when stood on lorry at event. Problem solved - and this horse was no where near stressed/psycholocically damaged just bored!

My horse atm doesn't paw. He just likes to chew the windows/bars/rope/headcollar. He does this for fun, he chews ropes/headcollars/reins/anything within reach in the yard at home. He has a special rope for twirling in his field.

Hobbles are a good method of preventing unwanted behavior, like it or not horses are dangerous animals (especially when stressed) and hobbles can make the situation safer. I only use them when necessary, but are excellent when used appropriately. And I "speak" to my horse too, through a communicator, to try to find out what is wrong - but still use hobbles if necessary!

 

[flyingfeet]

Immobilizing the feet [to stop the flight response] can take minutes if you've got a long rope and a long whip handy.

Why on earth would a whip be used when hobble training? I not sure if you really understand this, and you seem to be making a lot of assumption and unfortunately you sound a bit airy fairy in your approach to horse training. Yes most consistent training methods work to some degree, but some work faster because they are clearer to the horse.

Whips are not used or needed during hobble training, as all you want the horse to learn is where there feet are and that a restraint won't kill them

Most well adjusted horses - you put the hobbles on, they look at you and say yup my feet are tied together I cannot move. You then lead them around so they learn to walk in hobbles, which is great for getting a horse to think about their feet.

The flighty horse, may rear and panic initially, until they work out it doesn't hurt and how to move their legs

All should be done preferably with a 3m lead or lunge line

A great Australian says "Train a horse to hobbles and they will be safe the rest of their life"

This guys speaks a lot of common sense, video shows a top leg hobble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhLI3ml1EMc

Edited to add - this video is talking about horse psychology and the effect hobbles have.

 

[Twilkolock]

Jen_cots "Why on earth would a whip be used when hobble training? I not sure if you really understand this, and you seem to be making a lot of assumption and unfortunately you sound a bit airy fairy in your approach to horse training. Yes most consistent training methods work to some degree, but some work faster because they are clearer to the horse. "

Indeed, I could say "why on earth"......why on earth would I use a whip with hobbles when I don't even advocate using hobbles? Where in my text did I state using a whip with hobbles? I don't advocate the use of hobbles!! Again, I'm sorry you've misunderstood and seem not to understand.

The video you cited is not 'horse psychology" in my opinion. It does not use a scientific approach or draw upon psychological and/or equine science [regarding how horses learn and their behaviour] and I would not be interested in following or advocating this approach.

I advocate using Dr Andrew McClean's approach who is based in Australia at the Australian Equine Behavioural Centre who uses the science of Learning Theory to train horses. He uses not only the historial evidence of Skinner and Pavlov etc, regarding negative/positive reinforcement and classical conditioning but also uses comtemporary research findings concerning animal/equine cognition. In my opinion this approach is simply revolutionary, ethical and because it has the weight of scientific research behind it, more concrete than other methods. Unfortunately, however, as the horse industry is so backward people simply can't get their heads around it and I think this debate is an illustration of this.

To quote Dr McClean he states that hobbles (I'm paraphrasing), "retard a horses progress....and used for horses that habitually kick or strike....However, these problems are typical manifestations of in-hand problems with 'stop and 'go'. (His approach breaks the horses responses and training into 'go', 'stop', 'turn' and 'yeild'.)

The website is: www.aebc.com.au where they provide definitions of 'negative/positive reinforcement' and so on.

They also have a Youtube site but as they produce DVD's there aren't really any decent videos that illustrate their approach. They do however, show a video of a horse that was headshy and the bridle couldn't be put on (similar to your guy) - and there isn't a hobble in sight!!

 

[Twilkolock]

Actually, I misquoted Andrew as he stated that "hobbles are also used for horses that habitually strike or kick during travelling". Couldn't put that into my last post.

 

[vixann]

pro hobbles

 

[Luci07]

They have their place. Was thinking of using them on my big baby thug who thought it was alright to push his luck and kick out. Have solved the problem by sending him out hunting with someone who won't tolerate bad manners. Have seen them used to break a cycle of behaviour and that worked too.

 

[jinglejoys]

Picasso was hobbled in Spain before I bought him

 

[poglet1991]

i am against them, thouggh i am biased. my mare has a huge scar round one of her hind legs from hobbling

 

[Dolcé]

Hobbles are a lost art in the UK

I have upper front leg and lower hobbles - all of mine get hobble trained

They are all started in a big arena in a safe environment. I also had to buy the hobbles from america as the UK ones are rubbish

So as to the why:
It teaches the horses they are some things you cannot get away from and you need to place reliance on your human

Horses that get tangled up in fences and panic are the ones with hefty vets bills, a hobble trained horse feels the restriction, accepts it and waits for a human to fix the problem

In Australia training is still prevalent as farms are so big, as horse that panics and rips itself open if it gets stuck is a dead one

Good front leg hobbles:

Upper leg hobbles:

One leg hobble (your farrier will thank you for this one, as teaches them to balance on 3 legs)

Jen_Cots, is there anywhere over here that does training for this? I was looking into this last year but couldn't find anywhere, after looking at the aussie sites about it I was convinced it is something that would be a benefit in so many ways.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I'm with Twilkolock on this one - I wouldn't use hobbles - in fact I hadn't heard of them for ages since this thread - I thought they'd gone out with the Ark!

 

[el_Snowflakes]

No, I personally find them disgusting

 

[Dolcé]

No, I personally find them disgusting

I suppose it depends on how/why they are used. I must admit it is not something I would have entertained until I saw the Australian websites about it, can't remember the guy's name. I like the idea that your horse will not panic and tear itself to pieces if it gets caught up anywhere because it has been trained not to fight to escape. We had one badly damaged on barbed wire and it isn't something I would ever want to deal with again. I wouldn't want to 'use' them as such, just have the horses trained to them.

 

[jaquelin]

Interesting point made about horses pawing in trailer and also incapable of standing still. Just finished with one like that tonight, and my instructor was working on getting the horse to understand "halt". Horse had never been trained to halt, Same horse pawed in the trailer. I just wonder if he starts to understand it is ok to halt, also ok to stand still in trailer.....

 

[awesomebydesign]

I would never personally use them, however if they are used correctly in the right situation, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[jeeve]

My son bought a clydie/TB cross. She is used to being hobbled, and he has a pair of hobbles that the fellow he bought the mare off made.

He uses them when worming or similar, as she can get silly, but with hobbles on she stands immediately and just accepts the wormer.

I also agree that hobbles help teach a horse not to struggle if caught in a fence etc

Like all things it is more the handler, than the tool that is the issue.

I would not like to see a horse hobbled when travellimg as could see them having trouble keeping their balance

 

[Enfys]

"place reliance on your human..........waits for a human to fix the problem"

Scientifically speaking, you are imbuing the horse with abilities and intelligence is simply doesn't have. There is not one scientific study that a) has shown that the horse is able to conceptualise humans in this way, b) has that level of intelligence whereby it can problem solve to such a high level (wait for a human to fix the problem, etc.)

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.

Nurture over nature. Precisely.

Horses should be trained to accept restriction, be that hobbles, trailing ropes, etc, etc, and believe me, a horse properly trained to accept restrictions around their legs jolly well will stand and wait if they become entangled in something.

 

[SpottedCat]

Spotted cat - (hobbling whilst travelling) there is a line of thought that says that pawing/kicking, as you describe, is a symptom of anxiety. It's interesting that he does this when approaching an event/show. A horse doesn't need to be Einstein to learn that simple changes such as change of gear and slowing down whilst travelling equates/means shows at the end of it. From a equine psychology point of view a horse shows these symptoms when it feels conflict - often in its ridden work, such as stimultenous rein/leg pressure. I'd rather get to the bottom of the behaviour than whack hobbles on, but that's just me!

He's a horse that's evented to intermediate, who loves his job and who will, if turned free in a field with jumps in, jump them of his own accord. Are you seriously telling me that he is anything other than impatient when he approaches his destination? I pretty often change gear, slow down, stop at traffic lights, pull into petrol stations, go wrong and stop to check the map....none of these make him kick, so I do not think that's the trigger somehow. It is arriving at a showground or at home (the latter presumably being the place he feels least stressed, no?) which makes him kick. I don't think he feels much conflict/anxiety when arriving home = off the box, feed, in the field to relax.

FWIW I have tried any number of approaches to stop him kicking, nothing works except the hobbles, and I reckon it is far less dangerous to have him unable to kick than it is to have the partition come crashing down on him, but maybe that's just me. If you want to come and 'fix' him, you have an open invitation - as long as you're prepared to pay for any damage to the lorry (or him) whilst you analyse him!

 

[SpottedCat]

I would not like to see a horse hobbled when travellimg as could see them having trouble keeping their balance

Not if they are fitted correctly it doesn't - you're not tying their feet right next to each other after all! Mine can still spread his back legs, and has absolutely no issues standing up in them. There is a lot of adjustment in a decent set of hobbles.

 

[Jesstickle]

Hmm. Interesting....

I haven't ever used them, never even considered them but they sound like a genuine possibility for my knobber who won't be clipped without trying to kill you (and no, he isn't scared of clippers he's just an impatient knob) rather than filling him full of ACP every time.

I am off to investigate. Thanks all

 

[Wagtail]

This is a very interesting thread, especially the use of hobbles in training horses to accept restriction. I have therefore changed my view about the use of them.

 

[flyingfeet]

Ok I'll try and address everyone here:

elsazzo - please quantify disgusting; what we are discussing here is the use of them as correction and training tool, generally speaking the horse would never wear them for more than 30 mins

Festive Frilly Stockings - I don't know of anyone using them here, I bought the horse problems leg restraints DVD as I had a very flighty badly schooled polo pony to fix and this has really worked for me

poglet1991 - I'm guessing yours if they have a scar was done with rope

jinglejoys - that is definitely a rope scar, look at the narrow width. Under no circumstances would I ever use rope round the legs of any of my horses.
As we all know rope burns and even mild movements can cause the rope to tighten if the knots are incorrect.

No one should ever use make shift hobbles, you need the right kit. I notice there are some you tube videos showing people using rope, and I would like to make it clear that this is a seriously bad idea!

Twilkolock I still not sure McClean disagrees with all use of hobbles, but I haven't read a lot from the website. I haven't used them travelling because I cannot control the environment i.e. If I stop suddenly due to other road users. However I may use them in training at home or stationery if required.

Restraint is taught from the minute you put a halter on a horse, you are restraining them from their head and expecting them to work with you. Ultimately most people expect their horses to tie up, as its only practical and this is using a restraint on their head.

Now I am only advocating the use of good quality hobbles as a training aid, not something I would leave on unsupervised or use without training the horse first.

If you watch that you tube video, its showing a headshy horse being trained with hobbles, because ultimately a horse that has learnt an evasion needs to be retrained and this system (which won't fix everything!) does train a horse that there are some things you cannot evade and they learn acceptance, not through pain, not through force, not through flapping and it lets them think things through.

 

[SpottedCat]

Wagtail - I think that's a HHO first - someone reading an emotive thread and changing their mind, thanks for posting. I have to say when my chap was wearing the fence round his back legs last week I was incredibly glad he'd been hobble trained - otherwise I suspect I'd have had either a large vets bill, or a large fencing bill!

 

[FanyDuChamp]

This is a very interesting thread, especially the use of hobbles in training horses to accept restriction. I have therefore changed my view about the use of them.

When I started this thread I had no idea it would be so controversial. As I said they were used a lot when I was young but don't seem to use them so much now. I agree with Wagtail, I have had my eyes opened about them.

Now off to start a thread on tethering! Only kidding!
FDC