Hobbles- would you? Do you?

[el_Snowflakes]

Headcollars can also cause accidents - horse can panic and break their necks quite easily if not trained to tie up properly - can't really see much difference.
We have seen scars on legs from incorrect use of hobbles but I think you will find if you go to an equine rescue centre you will see scars from incorrect use/fitting of headcollars??

Of all the horses I have ever known (which is quite a few!) every one of them has worn a headcollar. I have never seen scars on a horse from a headcollar (although Im sure this does happen) All our horses at the yard are tied to a piece of baler twine which would snap if the horse was to panic. A quick release knot does exactly that- releases quickly when the end of the rope is pulled. If a horse was to seriously panic with hobbles on there is no way of quick release. You are talking about the 'incorrect use/fitting of headcollars' to be cruel. Yes it is. Anything can be used as a form of torture if used incorrectly. I am talking about the use of hobbles in any form of use- I believe them to be harsh and cruel whether used 'correctly' or 'incorrectly'.

 

[flyingfeet]

Due to their nature, hobbles are more likely to produce a fear response. Here, the horse cannot 'regulate' the pressure and release because the fear response is more than likely to over-ride any ability to do this. Yes, they may calm eventually but at what expense? The fear response is hard to get rid of.

Please go and have a look at that Horse Problems site - hobbles induce no more fear than a headcollar and with good handling (why also incorporates pressure and release), you should never get to the level of blind panic.

Well, if you know anything about science....you'll know that 'science' is conducted using a specific rigorous procedure, starting with a hypothesis, has a control group and so on, and ends in a conclusion of the findings.

Well I have a degree in it, will that do? If you know about "science" you'll also be aware that many scientists are desperate to prove their hypothesis as if they don't then funding tends not to be that forthcoming, which is why there is a lot of science surrounding global warming that was funded only to prove it exists.

One of my favourites was looking at GM potatoes and concluded that GM potatoes would kill you. This was a published study and jumped on by the media - what they failed to tell you was that it was a study whereby the scientist fed rats nothing but potatoes and concluded that the ones fed GM potatoes died faster. This was a) fixed and b) only proved feeding rats raw potatoes had a 100% kill rate.

Damn lies and statistics always make everything grey

 

[flyingfeet]

You assume the stud didnt train there horses properly to hobbles and you assume they did there coverings on a concrete surface. Your wrong
This mare was 11yrs old and belonged to the stud, she was well trained and used to the hobbles as was all his mares.

I have never heard of covering in concrete - which is not what I said in part it may as they walk the mare to the covering area

Now I have never seen a stud, put hobbles on in an area and get the mare to walk around and get used to the hobbles

Also it would depend on what type of hobbles they were using - were they suitable for the job? You never use short hobbles on the back and these are breeding hobbles:

They can also be affixed on the hocks or above the hocks and their only function is to stop the mare kicking the stallion

Also food for thought for others:

Dr. Robert M Miller in his latest Book, 'Natural Horsemanship Explained' says the following:

"It is interesting that, while today's recreational rider often has an excessive dependency on and respect for such tools as bits, spurs and whips, they usually regard hobbles as and unnecessary and cruel device. I believe that all domestic horses should be trained to hobbles and that proper hobble training is an integral part of 'Natural Horsemanship'"
http://www.robertmmiller.com/

 

[dieseldog]

You assume the stud didnt train there horses properly to hobbles and you assume they did there coverings on a concrete surface. Your wrong
This mare was 11yrs old and belonged to the stud, she was well trained and used to the hobbles as was all his mares. The stud owner was in his 60's and had worked with horses all his life, he also wasnt cruel to his animals and never 'whacked' them. The mares where also covered on an open sand surfaced area beside the yard (he had nicked the sand from his local beach way back ) After hearing horror stories about going to work in yards over in Ireland i was actually very impressed. He taught me a lot and i respected him as a horseman even if i did disagree with a few of his methods like the hobbling.
I have also worked for a stud in Scotland who used to hobble certain mares and they were always trained beforehand.

I stand by my earlier statement of it being an outdated practice and would never put my own horses, or a clients horse in such a dangerous situation.

So the guy had used hobbles for years with no incident and the one time a freak accident happens involving a car crashing into the wall of the stable the mare breaks her leg, I think that supports hobbles being a safe alternative if used correctly. Maybe he shouldn't have been covering horses next to a road?

Sounds awful though and must have been terrible for you to have witnessed - can understand why you are anti hobbles after seeing that.

 

[Twilkolock]

There is a world of difference between hobbling a horse and tying it up by a headcollar.

From postings hobbles appear to be used for all sorts of unwanted behaviours (which in my opinion tells us more about thier owners/handlers training methods/abilities than it does the horse's nature) in order to curtail the flight response. Therefore, they are hobbled mainly when the going gets tough and owners can't control their horses, for clipping, travelling, etc.

Tying up is not used for adversive procedures or when the horse is under stress as hobbling appears to be. Tying up horses for adversive procedures such as injection, worming, etc, is also not advised. This is because they have a tendancy to fight against restraint and want to flee.

When we tie a horse up we train pressure/release (backwards/forwards) and then 'park' which is where we use pressure/release to stop the feet. Tying up is not trained whilst in a stressful situation or used to off-set the flight response as hobbling is. The horse then habituates easily to tying up (when done correctly) because there are no associations or links with fear or flight and is used for a different purpose.

Also, there are differences due to different locations on the horse's body. Tying the horses legs (which are it's only means of escape) is different from restraining the head. Immobilizing the head produces a different response than immobilizing the feet because the head is not the primarily means of taking the horse away from whatever is threatening it. Yes, immobilizing the head can be pretty frightening too and having grown up on a farm I've immoblized cows, sheep, horses head in the past. But, that is only because these animals have no prior training in immobilizing their feet.

Hobbles belong in a gone by era when we didn't know as much about horses as we do now. Trouble is, people are not interested in learning more about how horses really learn. They want instant fixes. Such as shame.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

There is a world of difference between hobbling a horse and tying it up by a headcollar.

From postings hobbles appear to be used for all sorts of unwanted behaviours (which in my opinion tells us more about thier owners/handlers training methods/abilities than it does the horse's nature) in order to curtail the flight response. Therefore, they are hobbled mainly when the going gets tough and owners can't control their horses, for clipping, travelling, etc.

Tying up is not used for adversive procedures or when the horse is under stress as hobbling appears to be. Tying up horses for adversive procedures such as injection, worming, etc, is also not advised. This is because they have a tendancy to fight against restraint and want to flee.

When we tie a horse up we train pressure/release (backwards/forwards) and then 'park' which is where we use pressure/release to stop the feet. Tying up is not trained whilst in a stressful situation or used to off-set the flight response as hobbling is. The horse then habituates easily to tying up (when done correctly) because there are no associations or links with fear or flight and is used for a different purpose.

Also, there are differences due to different locations on the horse's body. Tying the horses legs (which are it's only means of escape) is different from restraining the head. Immobilizing the head produces a different response than immobilizing the feet because the head is not the primarily means of taking the horse away from whatever is threatening it. Yes, immobilizing the head can be pretty frightening too and having grown up on a farm I've immoblized cows, sheep, horses head in the past. But, that is only because these animals have no prior training in immobilizing their feet.

Hobbles belong in a gone by era when we didn't know as much about horses as we do now. Trouble is, people are not interested in learning more about how horses really learn. They want instant fixes. Such as shame.

well said twilkoclock

 

[flyingfeet]

I still think you fundamentally misunderstand the use of hobbles

Think like a horse - Rick Gore:-
Hobbles are a great tool for all horsemen. Some think hobbles are mean or cruel and if used the wrong way, I would agree. Hobbles are an advanced "sack out" technique that will give your horse confidence, enforce your leadership position, teach pressure and release and build trust. It teaches horses to give to pressure and learn to deal with being trapped. It desensitizes a horse's legs to being confined, trapped or stuck. A hobble-trained horse is less likely to tear his leg off if he ever is caught up in wire or a fence.

Hobbles have a long history in horse training. In the past they were used has a way to break the horse's spirit, to take the fight out of a horse and to dominate a horse. I do not use them for that and do not recommend them for that use. In the days of horseback, when most all transportation was by horse, there were not tie post or tie points everywhere. By placing hobbles on a horse, you were able to secure your horse in open areas with no trees or tie points. That way in morning, your horse would have grazed all night, but would not have travelled miles away from you and your camp site. A horse can still defend himself if hobbled and can still kick and run. If you are out riding and do not have a lead rope or place to tie a horse up and you need to relieve yourself, you can hobble your horse, take care of business while your horse snacks and relaxes

Site with videos:
http://www.thinklikeahorse.org/index-12.html

Hopefully this help - I still think you have the misconception of use

 

[Twilkolock]

A horse can still defend himself if hobbled and can still kick and run.

Oh my goodness me. I think this statement alone hightlights the complete numptyness of this ummm........practice!!

1. If they can still run and kick - what the hell are they on there for? So, you have to do other things [whilst they're on - which by the way, I suspect are the real aids/cues/signals that curtail the flight response] to stop this running/kicking. You may as well take the bloomin things off and get on with the other thing you're doing to stop the running/kicking!!

2. If horses can still run/kick, hobbles don't stop the flight response, do they? Where is the pressure that limits their flight response?

Game over for me, I'm afraid.

 

[SpottedCat]

Twilkolock - if I'm such a useless handler/owner I assume you will be taking me up on my (entirely genuine) offer (and associated conditions)? Pm. Me to arrange a date in the new year when you can come and solve the problem.

 

[flyingfeet]

Oh my goodness me. I think this statement alone hightlights the complete numptyness of this ummm........practice!!

What he was referring to is if you use hobbles when you are camping out in the open and a mountain lion attacks your horse, it can still turn round and boot the predator

You've taken it out of context again - if you have both head and legs, you have total control of your horse.

Again you seem to ignore the benefits of not getting caught up in fencing - this is COMMON - more horses die of accidents in pasture than at any other time.

 

[Spring Feather]

Hobbles belong in a gone by era when we didn't know as much about horses as we do now. Trouble is, people are not interested in learning more about how horses really learn. They want instant fixes. Such as shame.

No the real shame is that you live such a blinkered existence. Keeping your ponies in tiny 5 acres pony paddocks and going on hacks along nicely tended bridleways. The world is larger than this. Think enormous ranches in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia, South America (all HUGE continents, each with massive equine populations compared to your teeny little country with it's globally-sparse horse population). Hobbling is a way of life for a great many horses located in different areas of the world. It is THE ONLY WAY in many instances for people to use horse power to work their land and tend their stock. You are proving just how sheltered a life you lead with your ignorance of what goes on, quite normally and without fuss, in vast areas of the world, but hey Great ole Britain shouts loudest about how the rest of the world population should go about their business. Sorry deary but the British Empire dissolved a long time ago and your airy-fairy ideals should be buried alongside it

 

[el_Snowflakes]

No the real shame is that you live such a blinkered existence. Keeping your ponies in tiny 5 acres pony paddocks and going on hacks along nicely tended bridleways. The world is larger than this. Think enormous ranches in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia, South America (all HUGE continents, each with massive equine populations compared to your teeny little country with it's globally-sparse horse population). Hobbling is a way of life for a great many horses located in different areas of the world. It is THE ONLY WAY in many instances for people to use horse power to work their land and tend their stock. You are proving just how sheltered a life you lead with your ignorance of what goes on, quite normally and without fuss, in vast areas of the world, but hey Great ole Britain shouts loudest about how the rest of the world population should go about their business. Sorry deary but the British Empire dissolved a long time ago and your airy-fairy ideals should be buried alongside it

just.wow

 

[somethingorother]

I'm somehow surprised at how many people seem blind to their horses emotions. If a horse reacts violently negatively to something, why would you just stick hobbles on instead of trying to keep them happy? Lack of inventive or original thinking with some people in my opinion. Lack of understanding in others, lack of patience in some. I think they probably have their place in some emergencies, and I agree it is a good idea to -gradually- train a horse not to panic when 'stuck'

But I think using them routinely is lazy 'training', using them for petty reasons such as clipping or mane pulling is not only lazy but unfair. Unhappy horse made even more unhappy for no reason.

I would also not support the method of hobble training described a few pages back, stick them on and let the horse throw itself around until it gives up. How horrible to just fight until you give up on a basic right like freedom. Do those who do this also 'teach' to tie up by tying youngsters to big heavy posts and sacking them out until they stop fighting?

 

[somethingorother]

To he honest i thought we were in 2011 but perhaps I am mistaken...

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just because people do things differently to you, does not mean they are automatically wrong/barbaric/disgusting
Seen them used a lot on the continent, with no issue.

 

[Tinypony]

Personally I would not want to use hobbles to deal with something that is a training issue such as clipping or mane pulling. I'm surprised though that so many here can't understand that in some countries, with proper training, they are an invaluable tool when horses need to be let loose, but there are no fences to hold them in. Of course accidents can and do happen in all sorts of circumstances, and I'm sure they have happened to horses that were hobbled to be free to graze. I've also known of a horse that was tied up while being shod in a regular headcollar, to a bit of baling twine, and got startled, flipped itself over and died on the spot because it broke it's neck. Horses get hurt in all sorts of situations.
I don't teach my horses to hobble, but I do teach them not to panic when they feel pressure around their legs, and to follow a feel from a rope around their legs. I think that's a useful life lesson that might make a huge difference to us one day.

 

[shirleyno2]

I often trvel a truck load of stallions and/or mares together, they may be on the truck for several hours on a competition day, and they are all hobbled in front. The hobbles are used to help prevent them kicking due to boredom or man-ego. I have seen way too many accidents from horses climbing onto the tack lockers or putting their feet through the window bars. The hobbles are not excessivley short [except on ones that learn how to kick the partitions open or pull their shoes off on the partition handles]
I've never yet had a horse freak out at the hobbles, they might have a quick temper tantrum but thats all it is.

 

[Twilkolock]

No the real shame is that you live such a blinkered existence. Keeping your ponies in tiny 5 acres pony paddocks and going on hacks along nicely tended bridleways. The world is larger than this. Think enormous ranches in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia, South America (all HUGE continents, each with massive equine populations compared to your teeny little country with it's globally-sparse horse population). Hobbling is a way of life for a great many horses located in different areas of the world. It is THE ONLY WAY in many instances for people to use horse power to work their land and tend their stock. You are proving just how sheltered a life you lead with your ignorance of what goes on, quite normally and without fuss, in vast areas of the world, but hey Great ole Britain shouts loudest about how the rest of the world population should go about their business. Sorry deary but the British Empire dissolved a long time ago and your airy-fairy ideals should be buried alongside it

I wasn't going to participate in this discussion any longer. However, when I saw this post, I really wanted to comment.

Having studied cross cultural agricultural pracitices for a Masters degree in Anthropology and someone who has travelled in all those countries, except Australia, I am all too aware of the legacy of the British Empire and how one must be 'culturally relative' and not shove our ideas upon non western societies.

However, if you do your research you will know that hobbling is a major welfare concern for those countries themselves. The Animal Welfare, livelihoods and Environment regional workshops held in Africa most years by animal welfare groups (homegrown) cite hobbling as a welfare issue. Also, the Brooke, WSPA also have concerns about the hobbling.

I am not going to again go into detail about hobbles. However, I wanted to point out that your idea of small scale socieities living in harmony with their enviroment/animals is a western construct that you've bought in to. Many donkies, horses, cattle lead pretty appauling lives and without charities like Brooke, their lives would be even more miserable.

 

[flyingfeet]

Ok so this is probably dragging on and everyone is getting bored

Some will be pro hobble and some against, I accept that there are people that would never use hobbles, and certainly a lot that should not (or probably lunge, or even own a horse!!)

I will reiterate - you should be competent in handling your horse, you need to spend time training prior to addressing any issue


This is why I am happy to train my horses to hobbles - cause is barb wire

 

[jeeve]

Not if they are fitted correctly it doesn't - you're not tying their feet right next to each other after all! Mine can still spread his back legs, and has absolutely no issues standing up in them. There is a lot of adjustment in a decent set of hobbles.

Would depend on the hobble. Also the horse would need to be used to them. The pair we have would not be suitable for travel. I also would not use them on any other of our horses without some one assisting me to teach them to accept them. But the clydie mare accepts them well.

 

[Mare Stare]

Ok so this is probably dragging on and everyone is getting bored

Some will be pro hobble and some against, I accept that there are people that would never use hobbles, and certainly a lot that should not (or probably lunge, or even own a horse!!)

I will reiterate - you should be competent in handling your horse, you need to spend time training prior to addressing any issue


This is why I am happy to train my horses to hobbles - cause is barb wire

EEEEEEEEK!

Really wish there had been some kind of warning before I scrolled down. I assume the horse was PTS?

 

[Spring Feather]

Also, the Brooke, WSPA also have concerns about the hobbling.

I've just checked on the status of hobbling with these charities; the Brooke asks for donations of hobbles along with harnesses, tack etc and they teach the use of humane hobbles to their "clients" and WSPA is trying to eliminate hobbling, only in the Mediterranean countries but not in the rest of the world.

Just to remind you, the instances I gave were of horses being used (in mainly developed nations) to work vast ranches where there are often no trees to tether horses and there aren't 5 acre pony paddocks aplenty.

ETA; the worry of fence injuries like this happening is why I teach all of my young horses about restraint using long lead ropes. I don't use hobbles, have no need for them when the rope will give the same results and I feel is safer. I am not against those who have a necessity to use, or choose to use, and correctly teaches their horse about, hobbles.

 

[SpottedCat]

I'm really disappointed that none of the people who think that they can train my horse not to kick in the lorry are prepared to put their money where their mouth is and actually demonstrate how they would solve the issue. All they've said is they would train the horse properly. I'd like to be shown how please, then I can do away with one more time consuming thing on event days.

 

[Spring Feather]

I'm really disappointed that none of the people who think that they can train my horse not to kick in the lorry are prepared to put their money where their mouth is and actually demonstrate how they would solve the issue. All they've said is they would train the horse properly. I'd like to be shown how please, then I can do away with one more time consuming thing on event days.

They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences. Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.

 

[piebaldmare]

They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences. Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.

Thats cos you never actually asked that question before Spring Feather.

Im with all the antis here - never used them - never would.

 

[cptrayes]

Haven't read the thread but how is hobbling an answer to not getting a horse caught up in barbed wire? Surely not turning the horse out in barbed wired paddocks is the answer to not getting them caught up in barbed wire?

 

[piebaldmare]

Surely not turning the horse out in barbed wired paddocks is the answer to not getting them caught up in barbed wire?

Couldn't agree more.

Spring Feather - Why with proper fencing would you need to hobble? Don't really understand why your horses get caught up in fencing?

Are you telling us that you hobble your horses in the feild whilst grazing?

Surely, if your horse was caught up in fencing, you'd sedate?

Sitting on a horse's head is a good way to calm - I wouldn't want to get hobbles on a horse that was thrashing it's legs caught up in a fence.

But as our livey owner has good fencing - its thankfully never happened.

 

[Spring Feather]

What are they? I'm always interested in other peoples methods. How do you teach horses not to panic when they are leg/head/body restrained?

They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences. Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.

Thats cos you never actually asked that question before Spring Feather.

There you go

Spring Feather - Why with proper fencing would you need to hobble? Don't really understand why your horses get caught up in fencing?

Are you telling us that you hobble your horses in the feild whilst grazing?

Surely, if your horse was caught up in fencing, you'd sedate?

Sitting on a horse's head is a good way to calm - I wouldn't want to get hobbles on a horse that was thrashing it's legs caught up in a fence.

But as our livey owner has good fencing - its thankfully never happened.

Oops you must have missed where I've said at least 3 times that I don't use hobbles

 

[Enfys]

Surely, if your horse was caught up in fencing, you'd sedate?

.

Right, and of course, absolutely everyone carries sedatives around in their pockets for just that occasion! Cell phones are a damn sight more helpful to rally the troops in the first instance.

I believe the point SF is making is that if a horse should get caught up then the fact that it is accustomed to having the legs restrained means that it is far less likely to struggle or panic should it get trapped in something.

 

[flyingfeet]

Haven't read the thread but how is hobbling an answer to not getting a horse caught up in barbed wire? Surely not turning the horse out in barbed wired paddocks is the answer to not getting them caught up in barbed wire?

The issue is not fencing - yes its great if everyone can afford nice post and rail! However horses have been caught up in electric fence, and you never know what you are going to meet if you are out hacking. Also what if some cretin lets your horse loose?

The hobble trained horse won't panic once caught up - that's the vital thing as it prevents injuries caused by struggling and panic (the ekkkk "its got my leg" response, which generally results in far worse injuries). Even if you had a syringe of sedative or handful of ACP, most injuries are caused within seconds.

Now some horses are sensible by nature, and these you don't really need to hobble train (as when you put them on they don't do anything).

I hobble train my horses, but tend not to really use them more than once or twice a year. My homebreds just regarded me with their usual humour, whereas my flighty TB polo pony initially did the ekkk response.

Bearing in mind my horses are gun trained too; and betting the anti hobble view probably think firing a 9mm revolver on a horse is cruel too!