Hobbles- would you? Do you?

[el_Snowflakes]

Ok I'll try and address everyone here:

elsazzo - please quantify disgusting; what we are discussing here is the use of them as correction and training tool, generally speaking the horse would never wear them for more than 30 mins

Festive Frilly Stockings - I don't know of anyone using them here, I bought the horse problems leg restraints DVD as I had a very flighty badly schooled polo pony to fix and this has really worked for me

poglet1991 - I'm guessing yours if they have a scar was done with rope

jinglejoys - that is definitely a rope scar, look at the narrow width. Under no circumstances would I ever use rope round the legs of any of my horses.
As we all know rope burns and even mild movements can cause the rope to tighten if the knots are incorrect.

No one should ever use make shift hobbles, you need the right kit. I notice there are some you tube videos showing people using rope, and I would like to make it clear that this is a seriously bad idea!

Twilkolock I still not sure McClean disagrees with all use of hobbles, but I haven't read a lot from the website. I haven't used them travelling because I cannot control the environment i.e. If I stop suddenly due to other road users. However I may use them in training at home or stationery if required.

Restraint is taught from the minute you put a halter on a horse, you are restraining them from their head and expecting them to work with you. Ultimately most people expect their horses to tie up, as its only practical and this is using a restraint on their head.

Now I am only advocating the use of good quality hobbles as a training aid, not something I would leave on unsupervised or use without training the horse first.

If you watch that you tube video, its showing a headshy horse being trained with hobbles, because ultimately a horse that has learnt an evasion needs to be retrained and this system (which won't fix everything!) does train a horse that there are some things you cannot evade and they learn acceptance, not through pain, not through force, not through flapping and it lets them think things through.

Not sure why you want me to explain the term 'disgusting' to you. The OP asked 'would you use them?' so thats what I answered beause I don't agree with them at all.

 

[ironhorse]

Ok I'll try and address everyone here:

[Festive Frilly Stockings - I don't know of anyone using them here, I bought the horse problems leg restraints DVD as I had a very flighty badly schooled polo pony to fix and this has really worked for me
No one should ever use make shift hobbles, you need the right kit. I notice there are some you tube videos showing people using rope, and I would like to make it clear that this is a seriously bad idea!


Echo the point about the right hobbles and about being shown properly how to train a horse to them. Done right...very effective. Done wrong, even properly made hobbles can cause soreness. Some of the western trainers use them over here...pm me if you want a contact, Festive Frilly Stockings.

 

[flyingfeet]

Not sure why you want me to explain the term 'disgusting' to you. The OP asked 'would you use them?' so thats what I answered beause I don't agree with them at all.

I asked you to quantify = explain why you feel this way?
Do you think a headcollar, hackamore or a bitted bridle is "disgusting"?
Sounds like an emotional answer, so I want you to explain your reasoning?

 

[Mare Stare]

This thread is certainly food for thought.

I'd never given hobbles much thought before.

 

[Wagtail]

This is a very interesting thread, especially the use of hobbles in training horses to accept restriction. I have therefore changed my view about the use of them.

Wagtail - I think that's a HHO first - someone reading an emotive thread and changing their mind, thanks for posting. I have to say when my chap was wearing the fence round his back legs last week I was incredibly glad he'd been hobble trained - otherwise I suspect I'd have had either a large vets bill, or a large fencing bill!

I never have any qualms about admitting my view point has been swayed. It doesn't often happen but in this instance posters have made me see another side to something I had previously dismissed as cruel. Glad your horse was okay.

 

[SpottedCat]

I never have any qualms about admitting my view point has been swayed. It doesn't often happen but in this instance posters have made me see another side to something I had previously dismissed as cruel. Glad your horse was okay.

Considering the vet's receptionist recognises my voice at the moment, so was I! Hats off to you - most people would rather chew their own arm off than admit they've changed their mind about something like this Normally I don't bother posting about this kind of thing as I know I'll be vilified, so it's nice to know there are some open-minded people out there.

 

[flyingfeet]

Well to be honest I've never knew much about hobbles until 2011, but I have experienced first hand horses ripping their legs open (to the point we wondered whether it would ever heal!). And heard lots of other wire / fence other horror stories where a horse has struggled and caused huge amounts of damage.

Now I'm not saying that hobbles will 100% prevent accidents as bolting or falling into things is not entirely preventable, but I'm hoping with hobbles the horse has gained the sense to feel restriction and wait rather than flap and damage themselves

I learnt from youtube and buying a DVD, I'd rather have learned from professional, but at least today information is at your fingertips!

 

[Spring Feather]

Nurture over nature. Precisely.

Horses should be trained to accept restriction, be that hobbles, trailing ropes, etc, etc, and believe me, a horse properly trained to accept restrictions around their legs jolly well will stand and wait if they become entangled in something.

This! This exactly.

 

[Spring Feather]

Incidentally I don't use hobbles but I do use long nylon ropes attached to unbreakable headcollars. They do a similar job in teaching the horse not to panic when restricted.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

I asked you to quantify = explain why you feel this way?
Do you think a headcollar, hackamore or a bitted bridle is "disgusting"?
Sounds like an emotional answer, so I want you to explain your reasoning?

I dont like the idea of tying a horses legs together. Thats reason enough for me.

 

[Enfys]

Incidentally I don't use hobbles but I do use long nylon ropes attached to unbreakable headcollars. They do a similar job in teaching the horse not to panic when restricted.

How do you use them?

Until I came to North America I had very set views on trailing ropes, hobbles, tying up blah, blah, blah, talk about tunnel vision (Thanks, in part, for that BHS) more than one road to Rome and all that

The horse scene here has been, and always will be, a huge learning curve for me, but I have seriously reviewed and completely backtracked on several things that I had always discounted as borderline cruelty and would never have considered before. To me now, they are quite logical.

Take ropes on headcollars.
I leave long, thick cotton ropes on headcollars of youngstock in the roundpen... Horse steps on the rope and can't move, pulls head up, that doesn't help, puts head down - Oh look, pressure removed! Move foot off rope, that works too Lesson learned, a rope is not going to eat you, and if you put your head down and pick up your foot you can move again.

I also loop ropes in a figure of eight, around neck and above hocks, and let the babies work it out for themselves in the stall with the mare there. They go " " and either have a mad couple of seconds until Mom bites them for being stupid, stand stock still and think about it, or take absolutely no notice at all - whatever they do, the end result is the same, a colt that won't chuck a hissy fit at a later date when he's being lunged etc.

 

[Archina]

This thread actually scares me. I would never use hobbles and seriously thought (and hoped) that they were an outdated method of restraining horses.

I worked over in Ireland for a while at a stud farm and the owner used hobbles, one day he was covering a mare who was hobbled so as not to kick the stallion and a car crashed into the wall of the yard (yard was walled and gated off from a semi busy road). Well stallion freaked and bolted back to his stable, the mare on the other hand broke her leg when she spooked as her flight response took over everything.

So i really cant see any justifiable way of using hobbles when we have so many safer methods. The poor mare would have still be alive if she wasnt wearing them.

Its all well and good to say the horse is trained to stand when wearing them but god forbid if something does happen and the horse bolts and it forgets its wearing them.

 

[Spring Feather]

How do you use them?

I leave long, thick cotton ropes on headcollars of youngstock in the roundpen... Horse steps on the rope and can't move, pulls head up, that doesn't help, puts head down - Oh look, pressure removed! Move foot off rope, that works too Lesson learned, a rope is not going to eat you, and if you put your head down and pick up your foot you can move again.

I do the same as you

I also loop ropes in a figure of eight, around neck and above hocks, and let the babies work it out for themselves in the stall with the mare there. They go " " and either have a mad couple of seconds until Mom bites them for being stupid, stand stock still and think about it, or take absolutely no notice at all - whatever they do, the end result is the same, a colt that won't chuck a hissy fit at a later date when he's being lunged etc.

This is how I teach my youngsters to lead. Seems our training methods are not poles apart

 

[Spring Feather]

So i really cant see any justifiable way of using hobbles when we have so many safer methods.

What are they? I'm always interested in other peoples methods. How do you teach horses not to panic when they are leg/head/body restrained?

 

[el_Snowflakes]

This thread actually scares me. I would never use hobbles and seriously thought (and hoped) that they were an outdated method of restraining horses.

I worked over in Ireland for a while at a stud farm and the owner used hobbles, one day he was covering a mare who was hobbled so as not to kick the stallion and a car crashed into the wall of the yard (yard was walled and gated off from a semi busy road). Well stallion freaked and bolted back to his stable, the mare on the other hand broke her leg when she spooked as her flight response took over everything.

So i really cant see any justifiable way of using hobbles when we have so many safer methods. The poor mare would have still be alive if she wasnt wearing them.

Its all well and good to say the horse is trained to stand when wearing them but god forbid if something does happen and the horse bolts and it forgets its wearing them.

Agree with you on this one Archina. Tying a horses legs together does not stop a horse from having a flight response! I find it quite ridiculous and cannot actually believe there are people out there who would use them on their horses. If anyone came near my mare with one of those contraptions they would end up wearing it themseves! Im on a considerably large yard and none of our horses have ever been 'hobbled' and Im not sure our YO would be very happy about the use of them on the yard. To even try to compare the use of such contraptions with using headcollars etc...Please?! that's like saying 'you wear a tie so you won't mind having a noose around your neck then?' :O I would like somebody to inform me....what happens if the horse gets a serious fright? bolts? loses their balance??! :O:O Seriously, horses do so much for us and we put them through so much which is 'unnatural' to them. I think they deserve so much more than having their legs tied together to make life easier for us. We all have to draw the line somewhere this is where I draw mine.

 

[Twilkolock]

Twilkolock I still not sure McClean disagrees with all use of hobbles, but I haven't read a lot from the website.

Right this is what Dr McClean has to say about hobbles....In my opinion this is not a training method but rather the science behind why horse behave in the way they do. I don’t want to sound like an essay but thought it was important to provide these quotes because you stated that you’re not sure what McClean’s position on hobbles was.

“Among veterinarian professionals, physical restraint of horses (ie, hobbles) during painful procedures is often possible but rarely preferable to chemical restraint”

“When increased restraint is required, it sometimes takes the forms of hobbles....but these dubious techniques should be seen as emergency measures rather than routine approaches.”

“The danger of horses fighting against physical restraint by blindly paddling their limbs in pursuit of freedom means that hobbles...as a means of restraint should be avoided wherever possible”.

Restraining techniques “have been superseded by chemical agents since there is no justification for allowing horses to fight against physical restraint when there is no evidence that they can predict that the episode will end. If, during a handling procedure, a horse is not likely to learn good associations with personnel, then we should avoid it learning anything. The use of OVERSHADOWING techniques to reduce fearful responses to.....farriery, clipping...has tremendous promise in skilled hands.”

“The extent to which the horse undergoes LEARNED HELPLESNESS [with hindlimb restraint] is worth considering. In general it is better to apply LEARNING THEORY than brute force.....the preferred approach to hindleg sensitivity is to habituate...to touch”

“Good handling should place the horse under stimulus control (on the aids) and remove the need for the horse to learn the ‘hard way’”. Those quotes are all from his book: Equitation Science.

Restraint is taught from the minute you put a halter on a horse, you are restraining them from their head and expecting them to work with you. Ultimately most people expect their horses to tie up, as its only practical and this is using a restraint on their head.

You mention that from the moment we put a halter on we’re restraining the horse – we aren’t - we’re teaching the horse about pressure and release. We’re teaching that the removal of the pressure rewards the horse for performing a certain behaviour, ie, turn, go, stop. There is no restraint involved only pressure and release. It makes me concerned that you think it's restraint. Typically horses that have problems being tied up have experienced one of the scenario's above.

We train horses primarily [and unavoidably] using NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT. This is where an unpleasant stimulus is removed to increase the likelihood of a desired behaviour occurring again. So, rein pressure is removed to increase the likelihood of the horse stopping. The removal of the pressure motivates the horse to stop. The horse learns that stopping produces relief from pressure. Leading a horse, stopping a horse, turning a horse, leg aids, etc, all work in the same way. Timing, consistency, and contiguity of negative reinforcement are key to producing well trained and calm horses which are under the control of the handler without problems.

McClean says “numerous handling problems are the legacy of previous mistakes in timing and consistency.....of negative reinforcement.

I think my point is that a) many riders/owners don’t realise what a proper ‘stop’, ‘go’, ‘turn’, ‘yield’ response feels/looks like (I didn’t until I went on a Learning theory clinic) and how when there are problems with these [at a basic level] it can have such a knock on effect further down the line or in other areas. These are like the foundations upon which you build the rest of the work. Therefore, when problems do arise (clipping, loading, farrier, travelling,etc) it reverts back to the lack of foundations.

there are some things you cannot evade.............. and it lets them think things through.

[/QUOTE]

Horses don't think things through....they merely respond to their environment.

 

[flyingfeet]

I worked over in Ireland for a while at a stud farm and the owner used hobbles, one day he was covering a mare who was hobbled so as not to kick the stallion and a car crashed into the wall of the yard (yard was walled and gated off from a semi busy road). Well stallion freaked and bolted back to his stable, the mare on the other hand broke her leg when she spooked as her flight response took over everything.
(

This I have an issue with - many studs "use hobbles", they give the horse absolutely no training, whack them on and then have a stallion jump on the mare.

This is akin to getting on board and unbroken horse and then wondering why the go ballistic when something sets them off.

I'm sorry but if you do not start off with proper training in a soft surfaced enclosed space then you are asking for trouble. Studs use of hobbles is the worse possible example, they never teach the horse to walk in them and generally are on a concrete surface for part of it!

 

[vixann]

To even try to compare the use of such contraptions with using headcollars etc...Please?!

Headcollars can also cause accidents - horse can panic and break their necks quite easily if not trained to tie up properly - can't really see much difference.
We have seen scars on legs from incorrect use of hobbles but I think you will find if you go to an equine rescue centre you will see scars from incorrect use/fitting of headcollars??

 

[flyingfeet]

Right this is what Dr McClean has to say about hobbles....

OK I assume you are talking about Dr McLean PhD etc - rather than another person

Note that he only studies the "trained horse"
http://www.aebc.com.au/andrewmclean
"Andrew continues to coach riders and National Federations on the optimal use of learning theory for improved welfare of the trained horse as well as improved performance"

“Among veterinarian professionals, physical restraint of horses (ie, hobbles) during painful procedures is often possible but rarely preferable to chemical restraint”

Agreed, if you stick hobbles on, having not trained the horse then absolutely you are in for trouble and will get the horse to associate hobbles with something bad if pain is involved.

“The extent to which the horse undergoes LEARNED HELPLESNESS [with hindlimb restraint] is worth considering. In general it is better to apply LEARNING THEORY than brute force.....the preferred approach to hindleg sensitivity is to habituate...to touch”

Agreed, hindleg hobbling isn't for the faint hearted and I would always do the Monty hand on a stick to desensitize first anyway

You mention that from the moment we put a halter on we’re restraining the horse – we aren’t - we’re teaching the horse about pressure and release. We’re teaching that the removal of the pressure rewards the horse for performing a certain behaviour, ie, turn, go, stop. There is no restraint involved only pressure and release. It makes me concerned that you think it's restraint.

However hobbles work on exactly the same basis they learn from self pressure and release that taking smaller steps and learning to walk in them means zero pressure from the hobble. A hobbled trained horse will never put itself under pressure

Horses don't think things through....they merely respond to their environment.

That wouldn't explain horses that can open gates, and solve basic problems, I refute that they only respond to environment as some horses definitely think more than others

As far as McLean goes, there's some things I agree with an others I don't, same with Monty, Pat and all great horsemen that are sharing their knowledge

Bear in mind this is a science centre and do wonderful studies like this: http://www.aebc.com.au/news/217/
Er which appears to only prove most people use a saddle pad.... I'd have like to see pressure studies, but one persons idea of a 'scientific study' may not necessarily be anothers and there is good and bad science out there

I encourage you to take a look at Horse Problems Australia http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Horseproblems home page.htm

No scientific qualifications, but he is used in court cases to assess the mental and physical health of horses. He is a specialist retrainer of problem horses (McLean is not) and has had 15,000 horses pass through his hands

Now I'm not saying his word is gospel, just like I'm sure there must be elements of McLean's studies that one might question.

However overall I am pleased that there are so many people trying to make horses lives better.

 

[Twilkolock]

Ha, ha, on a light hearted note.............I have to laugh..................Dr McClean....must be a freudien slip and a product of wishful imagination!! I'm off for a glass of wine but before I go I wanted to clear something up!

Note that he only studies the "trained horse"
http://www.aebc.com.au/andrewmclean
"Andrew continues to coach riders and National Federations on the optimal use of learning theory for improved welfare of the trained horse as well as improved performance"

Dr McLean does not only study the trained horse. He incorporate Ethology into his work, which researches and examines the wild horse in it's natural environment.

 

[oysterbay]

Very interesting discussion.

I have been involved with horses for over 45 years and all, including my childhood ponies, have either been bred by me, unbroken or very young when I acquired them and have been (generally!) very well behaved.

Except the most recent one - an anxious soul who I bought as a 7 yr old. He has improved, and relaxed, beyond recognition since I have had him, but now has a new trick. If left in the lorry unattended, he sometimes lifts his front legs up, puts them on the tack locker, then panics. He does not usually show any signs of separation anxiety.

I am obviously very concerned that he may put his legs through, or otherwise hurt himself. At present I avoid the scenario by only putting him on the back, where there is no locker. He has only done this twice and is normally so relaxed (he loads by himself, for example, and travels very well), that I am surprised he does this, but am not prepared to risk it happening again.

Hobbles have been suggested. As he is very well balanced and can rear extremely efficiently, would hobbles work as he can lift both front legs together?

I would be interested in others' opinions (particularly those who have used hobbles!)

 

[flyingfeet]

Probably not, as he lifts them as a pair and would need a side line. Far easier to put a tie ring lower down, so he cannot rear high enough to get on the tack locker (or put a hole in the roof lining)

 

[Stacey6897]

I use a single hobble and leadrope to lift my horses foot so I can get him lying down without wrecking my back, but they're not easy to get hold of, out of interest, does anyone know where to get them? Here's me getting him to lie down without the hobble, you can see why it would be useful

 

[Twilkolock]

Sorry, went away and couldn't then add to post... but also wanted to respond to previous poster:

Note that he only studies the "trained horse"
http://www.aebc.com.au/andrewmclean
"Andrew continues to coach riders and National Federations on the optimal use of learning theory for improved welfare of the trained horse as well as improved performance"

Dr McLean does not only study the trained horse. He incorporate Ethology into his work, which researches and examines the wild horse in it's natural environment.

However hobbles work on exactly the same basis they learn from self pressure and release that taking smaller steps and learning to walk in them means zero pressure from the hobble. A hobbled trained horse will never put itself under pressure

Hobbles do not work in the same way as I described above (handler/rider headcollar/leading etc/training.) Due to the interaction of horse and human the human/handler makes the decision regarding when to release to pressure or perhaps when not to release pressure. This timing, consistency and contiguity is crucial when producing wanted [rather than unwanted - flight/fear] behaviour in the horse.

Due to their nature, hobbles are more likely to produce a fear response. Here, the horse cannot 'regulate' the pressure and release because the fear response is more than likely to over-ride any ability to do this. Yes, they may calm eventually but at what expense? The fear response is hard to get rid of.

Of course horses can problem solve to a certain degree but we are quick to anthropomorphise...but horses are not capable of rational thought as we are. They are fight or flight animals who are predated and this dictates all their behaviour.

'd have like to see pressure studies, but one persons idea of a 'scientific study' may not necessarily be anothers and there is good and bad science out there

Well, if you know anything about science....you'll know that 'science' is conducted using a specific rigorous procedure, starting with a hypothesis, has a control group and so on, and ends in a conclusion of the findings. This is how veterinarian science is conducted and I assume you believe your vet. This is also how Dr McLean conducts his research. If it hasn't been subjected to this investigative procedure then no, it's not science. It's pretty black and white.

Where people are quick to criticise 'scientific research' is where is appears contradictory. This is however, is only because new research disproves older research. This however, is healthy.

 

[SpruceRI]

A friend of mine hobbles one of her horses at shows because he won't tie up. She ties his headcollar to a forearm. He can graze and walk but legging it away would be tricky.

She was brought up on a farm in Africa where all their horses were hobbled in some shape or form so that they didn't run off as the fencing was a bit iffy. The farm dogs were left out to chase off the wildlife or so I gather, though how successful that was I don't know!

 

[Archina]

Agree with you on this one Archina. Tying a horses legs together does not stop a horse from having a flight response! I find it quite ridiculous and cannot actually believe there are people out there who would use them on their horses. If anyone came near my mare with one of those contraptions they would end up wearing it themseves! Im on a considerably large yard and none of our horses have ever been 'hobbled' and Im not sure our YO would be very happy about the use of them on the yard. To even try to compare the use of such contraptions with using headcollars etc...Please?! that's like saying 'you wear a tie so you won't mind having a noose around your neck then?' :O I would like somebody to inform me....what happens if the horse gets a serious fright? bolts? loses their balance??! :O:O Seriously, horses do so much for us and we put them through so much which is 'unnatural' to them. I think they deserve so much more than having their legs tied together to make life easier for us. We all have to draw the line somewhere this is where I draw mine.

Totally agree with you there!

This I have an issue with - many studs "use hobbles", they give the horse absolutely no training, whack them on and then have a stallion jump on the mare.

This is akin to getting on board and unbroken horse and then wondering why the go ballistic when something sets them off.

I'm sorry but if you do not start off with proper training in a soft surfaced enclosed space then you are asking for trouble. Studs use of hobbles is the worse possible example, they never teach the horse to walk in them and generally are on a concrete surface for part of it!

You assume the stud didnt train there horses properly to hobbles and you assume they did there coverings on a concrete surface. Your wrong
This mare was 11yrs old and belonged to the stud, she was well trained and used to the hobbles as was all his mares. The stud owner was in his 60's and had worked with horses all his life, he also wasnt cruel to his animals and never 'whacked' them. The mares where also covered on an open sand surfaced area beside the yard (he had nicked the sand from his local beach way back ) After hearing horror stories about going to work in yards over in Ireland i was actually very impressed. He taught me a lot and i respected him as a horseman even if i did disagree with a few of his methods like the hobbling.
I have also worked for a stud in Scotland who used to hobble certain mares and they were always trained beforehand.

I stand by my earlier statement of it being an outdated practice and would never put my own horses, or a clients horse in such a dangerous situation.

 

[ISHmad]

Hobbles are not something I have ever used on my horses, nor would I.

 

[SpottedCat]

Oysterbay - no, hobbles won't work if they raise both legs together, and in all honesty you have a solution, which is safe and works 100% of the time, so I'd use it. I had a horse which reared if left alone on the lorry but was 100% in company. Hobbles would have been of no use at all, and the solution was there so I used it. FWIW I tried everything to get this horse to stand - going on every day, feeding on there, gradually spending more time alone etc but nothing worked. I asked the advice of an Intelligent Horsemanship chap I know, and outlined everything I'd done. He said I persisted longer than he would and tried everything he would have done and as I had a safe solution I should take it. Said horse spent over 5hrs on the lorry quiet as a mouse being delivered to his new home - I just had to take my other horse for the trip!!

 

[oysterbay]

J_C and SC - thank you.

 

[stilltrying]

So are we saying that tying a flight animals legs together is unnatural…but that tying a flight animal by the head to a wall isn’t??? They are both ways of restricting movement. OK tying up a horse by the head is ‘the norm’ in this country, but an untrained horse doesn’t know this, yet he is taught to accept this. Just as a horse would be trained to accept hobbles.

As with everything, any piece of kit can be dangerous in the wrong hands. How many times have we seen young horses heads disfigured by foal slips being left on?? And accidents can happen, as previous poster mentioned the mare sadly breaking a leg whilst wearing hobbles…I’ve been at a competition where a horse has reared, slipped and hung itself whilst tied to a lorry.