Hobbles- would you? Do you?

[Tinypony]

They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences. Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.

I don't think I was on the thread when you asked that question Spring Feather, but I can tell you what I do with my horses. I don't use hobbles. I just use my long ropes to accustom them to the feel of ropes around their legs, then do some work picking their feet up with ropes, then progress until I can have a loop of rope around any leg and "lead" them in any direction from that. It's all very gradual and calm and non-eventful. The idea is that, if they do feel something around their legs restricting their movement, their first instinct won't be panic, because they will have felt that sort of pressure many times before. It seems to work. Examples:

When I first got my Arab gelding and started riding him in the woods I quickly realised that he wasn't used to that sort of terrain because we would practically become airborne if he got low-lying branches round his legs. I did my normal rope work and now he stays calm.

I was putting my Arab mare out into the field in horrendous windy weather one day, let her off the halter and wondered why she stood there looking rather tense and "tall". I hadn't realised that a bit of electric rope had come down in the wind, was laying on the ground, and as she'd turned it had wrapped around the fetlock of one of her back legs. She was stood twitching in time with the pulsing from the battery fencing, but yielded to the pressure round her leg. I'll admit to holding my breath a bit when I freed her!

Some horses have it in their nature to be quite pragmatic about things and I know of many tales of horses that got their legs caught and just stood and waited for help, eating a patch of grass bare while they waited. We all know that some horses will panic with firghtening results though, so I don't see any harm in teaching the same lesson to any horses that come our way.

I can see why some trainers teach hobbling as a routine (which can be done gradually and quietly), in order to acheive the same result as I do with my ropes.

Mine also give to pressure on their heads now, so if they stand on their leadrope they just stop, and often back up to put slack back on the rope.

As an aside, when I was riding with a friend in Tuscany we hobbled the horses for lunch breaks. It meant they could have a little wander about while we ate. Obviously they were trained to hobbles.

 

[cptrayes]

The issue is not fencing - yes its great if everyone can afford nice post and rail!

This appears to be suggesting that it is OK to turn a horse out with unsafe fencing as long as it has hobbles on. Not in my book, sorry Permanent post and tape/rope is better fencing than post and rail because they can't eat it. If you cannot afford self-installed post and tape/rope then you really cannot afford a horse.

I'm not necessarily against hobbles. I can see them, for example, being useful for a horse which will not stay in a bare paddock (for its own good) and always jumps the fence into lusher grass.

I would use them to travel a persistent kicker who is risking damage to himself.

I would not use them to protect my horse from bad fencing.

I had never thought of using them to train a horse not to panic if his legs get caught up in something. I'll go away and have a think about that one.

 

[applecart14]

A friend on a previous yard hobbled her horse: as in tied its tail to its front leg, or its head to its back leg (can't remember which) but forgot to untie it when she unloaded the horse. It reared up and smashed its head, and looked very poorly for a while until it came too enough to be able to be walked to a stable.

Would never do that to mine though, - I think its an thing which is done is eastern countries more.

Jen Cots what a horrific thing to have happened to your horse. Agree with poster that said maybe we could of had a warning but thank you for sharing this picture.

 

[TigerTail]

All those anti hobble people - you do all realise you are doing a very similar thing by shutting your horses in small stables every day/night......... taking the flight option away from a flight animal......

Hobbles have their uses and should, as everything else, be used as a tool to help horses and their owners. They will, same as every other piece of equipment, only be as harsh as the person applying them. People saying they thought we were in 2011 and that they are outdated - not at all, we hobble our horses all the time, we just do it with bricks and electric fencing in tiny squares of paddocks

 

[flyingfeet]

This appears to be suggesting that it is OK to turn a horse out with unsafe fencing as long as it has hobbles on. Not in my book, sorry

Not at all - if you read my prior post (yes I know a lot!!) I never leave them on unsupervised. I am just saying that if you have hobble trained, in the event of your horse being turned out with less than perfect fencing and they get hung up, you have a much higher chance of reducing injury if you've hobble trained.

 

[SpottedCat]

And still no-one has offered to come and help me train my horse out of kicking. To recap - he kicks in the lorry for the final couple of minutes of the journey, whether that's to a new venue, one he's been to a lot of times before or coming home. He doesn't kick the rest of the time. He loads fine, travels fine and stands all day on the truck if needs be. When he kicks, he does it hard enough and in such a way as to dislodge the spring-loaded partitions, which then fall on him (he dislodges the back - front can't be dislodged due to type of pin). He doesn't panic when this happens, in fact he quietly stands eating hay - but when there is more than one horse it is downright dangerous. Hobbles stop him doing this.

How about someone posts on here how they'd do it then? Or do you all have so little faith in your own ability?

 

[stilltrying]

And still[/i] no-one has offered to come and help me train my horse out of kicking. To recap - he kicks in the lorry for the final couple of minutes of the journey, whether that's to a new venue, one he's been to a lot of times before or coming home. He doesn't kick the rest of the time. He loads fine, travels fine and stands all day on the truck if needs be. When he kicks, he does it hard enough and in such a way as to dislodge the spring-loaded partitions, which then fall on him (he dislodges the back - front can't be dislodged due to type of pin). He doesn't panic when this happens, in fact he quietly stands eating hay - but when there is more than one horse it is downright dangerous. Hobbles stop him doing this.

How about someone posts on here how they'd do it then? Or do you all have so little faith in your own ability?

its ok SpottedCat, no one has offered any alternative advice on how they would have dealt with my ex-trailer kicker either...

 

[Tinypony]

Who do you two want to answer you?

 

[Spring Feather]

Tinypony I appreciate the time you took to write out how you train your youngsters and horses. I train mine in a similar manner. I was riding through a dense forest with deep undergrowth and although my horses are quite used to being caught up in branches or tangled undergrowth one day the horse I was riding became entangled with some wire that was lying around on the forest floor. I have no idea where it came from or what it was doing there but boy was I pleased that I teach my horses to not panic. It was a reel of hi-tensile wire which could not be seen as it was autumn and all the leaves were on the ground covering it. I told my horse to stand, which he did, while I got off and disentangled his hind leg from the reel of wire. My mature horses are all taught to ground tie so there was no fear of him buggering off once he was freed. I don't know why people would not teach this type of restraint-training to their horses. I believe it is a responsible thing to do to teach as much as I can to keep my horses stress and panic-free in as many situations as I can envisage them getting into.

 

[zoon]

I am very open minded - would hobble a horse correctly if I ever needed to. I know someone who hobbles front and back when travelling and ties the headcollar to the back hobbles with a tight chain - this I find a bit severe!

 

[Tinypony]

Tinypony I appreciate the time you took to write out how you train your youngsters and horses. I train mine in a similar manner. I was riding through a dense forest with deep undergrowth and although my horses are quite used to being caught up in branches or tangled undergrowth one day the horse I was riding became entangled with some wire that was lying around on the forest floor. I have no idea where it came from or what it was doing there but boy was I pleased that I teach my horses to not panic. It was a reel of hi-tensile wire which could not be seen as it was autumn and all the leaves were on the ground covering it. I told my horse to stand, which he did, while I got off and disentangled his hind leg from the reel of wire. My mature horses are all taught to ground tie so there was no fear of him buggering off once he was freed. I don't know why people would not teach this type of restraint-training to their horses. I believe it is a responsible thing to do to teach as much as I can to keep my horses stress and panic-free in as many situations as I can envisage them getting into.

Leaving the hobbles debate aside just for a minute, I can't work out why a significant number of horse people seem to get so het up about this ropes around the legs thing. The key is to be able to easily release if the horse starts to get too worried. That's why I start with just the rope, one end in each hand and held around the leg. Then use a rope with a big ring on the end so that I can put the rope through the ring to make a loop, but as soon as I drop the rope to let it go slack it just falls off. Yet, more "normal" people watch me doing this stuff and so often the reaction is "My horse would NEVER put up with that. You're lucky, your horses are so good...". When of course their horses would be absolutely fine about it provided they used a bit of feel and timing in their training.
As for ground tying. I freaked my vet by dropping my rope on the ground and going to get something out of my barn. The vet kept making half leaps at the rope and then stopping herself. I told her "It's OK, he's ground tied", but she could hardly contain herself. She was really sweet about it. In the end I told her to stand on the end of the rope and see if the horse would panic, and of course he just stood still, then stepped back to release the pressure. I'm not saying "Oh, how great, look at how wonderful my horses are" (although of course they are...), just pointing out that it's really easy to teach horses to be a little bit safer and that it doesn't have to be a big deal.
I guess I think that teaching to hobble could be just as easy. And safety-wise, probably not really more dangerous than the other methods of restraint that we use. (Still think hobbling to clip or pull manes would be a bit OTT).

 

[SpottedCat]

Tiny pony - it is just as easy! In fact all the ones I've hobble trained have understood pretty much straight away. I've never had these panic issues people seem concerned about - but then all mine are also trained to voice command and well used to various other important things first (like a rope round the leg, giving to pressure etc)

 

[SpottedCat]

And from what you've described TP, your horses are hobble trained, you've just never put a set on - bet you'd have no reaction if you did!

 

[Tinker_Belle]

I don't see the problem with hobbles providing they are used correctly and kept in their place. Nobody on here is advocating their use in the way we would use a headcollar (almost 24/7 and while turned out) but I can see where in some instances they would be useful.

I can absolutely see the reasoning behind the training. Last winter my mare had somehow managed to untie herself and come and find me in the tackroom. The way our yard is laid out is the indoor stables have two entrances, one gangway for horses to go in and out of at one end and one ramp up to a doorway for humans to reach the tackroom quickly and easily from the yard. My mare decided she'd use the human entrance but unfortunately stood on her leadrope mid-way to me meaning she was stood in a very narrow area (belly touching the sides) but because she has been taught to give to pressure, she simply stood and waited for me to come and sort her out. As soon as I'd clicked at her she stepped back and back down the ramp and to the safety of the yard.

Had she not been sensible then a nasty accident and injuries could have occurred.

Again, last Winter (Christmas day morning in fact!) I was leading my mare out of her stable when another pony (known for biting others) went for her face to bite her. My mare backed up and then got attacked on her hindquarter by another pony who managed to bite so fiercely he almost tore through her rug! During all this she'd managed to get a hindleg stuck in a wheelbarrow, as the wheelbarrow was plastic her hoof had thankfully gone through (It makes me sick to think what would have happened if it had been a metal barrow) but it had caused her to panic as she was not only being snapped at both ends but now had her hindleg trapped. She did blow her top to a certain extent in that she tried to kick herself free. I had no option but to hold tight and make myself heard by talking to her as the ground was thick with ice outside and the livery who'd left the barrow out behind us was helpfully shouting at me to let her go, when there was thick ice and our yard borders a main road. Yes, fabulous idea!
Thankfully, my mare is very trusting of me and I do consider myself lucky to know mostly how she will react. She did her utmost to avoid me and not slam me against the brickwork as so many others would have done but that didn't mean I came away injury-free, I did siffer bruising from flying hooves and legs but nothing as serious as it could have been as in her panic she could easily have body slammed me in to a brick wall and crushed me. When she had stopped thrashing around (what felt like an age but was seconds) she stood rock-still while I untangled her and lead her out. I checked her for injury and five minutes later she was happily scoffing her breakfast in her field as if nothing had happened.

Had she not been taught to give in to pressure or listen to voice commands as she has been then she could easily have damaged herself and/or killed me.
Sometimes it is worth looking at a subject from all angles and considering the pros and cons. The pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to the teaching of giving to pressure and teaching a horse that simply because it's leg is stuck, it is going to die a gory death.

Had my mare not had to suffer being snapped at by two pairs of teeth at each end then I am sure her reaction would have been far less extreme to getting her leg caught as she did. I could be wrong but regardless, I'm happy I didn't end up with either a severely injured horse or a very dead one.

 

[Tinypony]

How about another pointless circus trick? Teach to back up from the tail. )
That comes in handy when a fat pony has escaped and wiggled herself into a small shed.
I think it's a shame really that nobody who was objecting strongly to hobbles, all hobbles in all situations, hasn't come back and offered suggestions for the horse that kicks at the end of journeys. I'd have been interested in ideas about that.

 

[*hic*]

Well as it's obviously stressed on the last few minutes of the journey you should stop just before it starts to kick, unload and walk it home (please note my tongue is firmly in my cheek!)

It's just the same as my cat who commuted weekly between Cambridge and Norwich and would sleep all the way until the last few minutes. If you stopped on the way she'd sleep through that but wake prior to arrival at home.

 

[SpottedCat]

LOL Hic, love it!!

Tiny pony I would have loved some suggestions too, not least because taking off hobbles from a horse's back legs when it's been travelling is a singularly messy and unpleasant job!

I'd go as far as to say that I'd be prepared to reward anyone who has a lasting solution that works

 

[christine48]

A couple of ours kick whilst travelling so we do travel in hind hobbles. Never had a problem they accept it same as being tied up.

 

[Tinypony]

Well, Happy Christmas anyway everyone.