Horse is very footy and don't know what to do

[cptrayes]

In fairness though, that is a skewed demographic - you're very much a barefoot person, so it's unsurprising that you know lots of people with barefoot horses.

The comment from me was made because the orginal poster said that there were very few long term sound barefoot horses.

I makes no difference to the response to that comment that I am a barefooter or that I am bound to know of plenty. The fact is that there are thousands in this country and hundreds of thousands worldwide.

 

[JFTDWS]

The comment from me was made because the orginal poster said that there were very few long term sound barefoot horses.

I makes no difference to the response to that comment that I am a barefooter or that I am bound to know of plenty. The fact is that there are thousands in this country and hundreds of thousands worldwide.

Yes, I know, I read the thread - and I agree that "very few" may not be accurate, but my point was that the number of successful, in work barefoot horses you know is likely to be disproportionately high compared to other horse people - thus it wouldn't scale up that most horsey people would know similar numbers of barefooters (thus the fact that you personally know 15 isn't terribly informative).

I don't know how many barefoot or unshod working horses there are in the UK, I imagine thousands is plausible, but that still puts them very much in the minority. It may be that "very few" is an accurate description, if we had a true representation of the proportions of working horses and their shoeing arrangements.

 

[Wagtail]

Anyway, forget what's best, don't you just love the sound of a barefoot horse? So much nicer than the sound of a shod horse!

 

[rhino]

Anyway, forget what's best, don't you just love the sound of a barefoot horse? So much nicer than the sound of a shod horse!

Please could you define and quantify 'nicer' before I can answer your question

 

[Wagtail]

Please could you define and quantify 'nicer' before I can answer your question

You know, the kind of 'nicer' that is palomino, of course.

 

[xxMozlarxx]

Nice feet..don't shoe them

 

[StarlightMagic]

Just for the record it wasn't me who said horses aren't sound barefoot long term also got a mare who has had no shoes for 7 years and is fine!

 

[Holly Hocks]

OP - if I were you, I would add some magnesium, try some hoof boots and if that doesn't solve it you can always sell the boots on ebay for probably nearly what you bought them for anyway, and shoe. But give the boots a chance. I got some cavallos a few weeks ago and instantly thought, What have I done - they looked awful on her. Roll on three weeks and I'm singing their virtues - they have moulded to her feet beautifully - my written off horse is now long-reining 30 mins each day on the roads without a jot of footiness (although farmer is moving us to our summer grazing next week, so that might change! ) Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, I know, I read the thread - and I agree that "very few" may not be accurate, but my point was that the number of successful, in work barefoot horses you know is likely to be disproportionately high compared to other horse people - thus it wouldn't scale up that most horsey people would know similar numbers of barefooters (thus the fact that you personally know 15 isn't terribly informative).

I don't know how many barefoot or unshod working horses there are in the UK, I imagine thousands is plausible, but that still puts them very much in the minority. It may be that "very few" is an accurate description, if we had a true representation of the proportions of working horses and their shoeing arrangements.

Did you read my post? I said I could find hundreds. I could probably find thousands quite easily. There are everywhere in Cheshire nowadays, I don't know about your part of the country.

People are so inobservant. On Saturday, someone who has hunted with me for three seasons said to me "I never noticed before that your horse has no shoes on". Says it all for me.

Barefoot horses are everywhere.

 

[JFTDWS]

Did you read my post? I said I could find hundreds. I could probably find thousands quite easily. There are everywhere in Cheshire nowadays, I don't know about your part of the country.

People are so inobservant. On Saturday, someone who has hunted with me for three seasons said to me "I never noticed before that your horse has no shoes on". Says it all for me.

Barefoot horses are everywhere.

Are they? They aren't round here - and I do notice. Especially when you look at competitive horses round here the majority are shod.

I read your post, but you said you knew 15 off the top of your head and could find hundreds if you tried. My point wasn't contradicting those statements, it was merely stating that it doesn't scale up as easily as you imply

 

[cptrayes]

Are they? They aren't round here - and I do notice. Especially when you look at competitive horses round here the majority are shod.

I read your post, but you said you knew 15 off the top of your head and could find hundreds if you tried. My point wasn't contradicting those statements, it was merely stating that it doesn't scale up as easily as you imply

I agree the majority of horses are shod. That does not mean that there are very few sound long term barefoot horses.

Nor that the ones that are shod need to be.

 

[JFTDWS]

I agree the majority of horses are shod. That does not mean that there are very few sound long term barefoot horses.

Nor that the ones that are shod need to be.

As I say, I'm not sure how the numbers would break down, whether it could be "very few", "few", "relatively few" etc but I'm confident that "fewer" horses are barefoot (and in work) than shod horses. I'd be curious to know, actually. It's not inconceivable someone's done a survey somewhere...

As for those who are shod needing to be, that is just one of those things - counterfactual as we'll never know. I suspect that some, possibly many, may cope well unshod. I don't know, I've not had the opportunity to try

 

[Moomin1]

I agree the majority of horses are shod. That does not mean that there are very few sound long term barefoot horses.

Nor that the ones that are shod need to be.

I'm still waiting for the evidence that shows that there are very few shod horses which reach old age sound and healthy, which is what you have commented to me before cptrayes.

I suppose it's kind of the same point isn't it?!

 

[Moomin1]

I've still not grasped why 'barefoot' horses who seem to go 'footy' each year when the grass comes through are still doing so years after becoming barefoot. Having a look through old threads, and recent ones, it's a classic and common theme that barefoot converts tend to go footy at this time of year, even those who have been barefoot for years. It's all down to diet, according to barefoot fans. In that case - why on earth do these people not get the correct diet right after so many years in order to prevent their horses from becoming footy and basically suffering pain?! If they are incapable of doing so - then please - put shoes on and give the horse some relief.

I have had three horses in my lifetime - one for ten years until he died at the age of 40, the other who I had for two years and sold on, and my latest who I have had two years and will never sell on. My old pony would stay sound even if he lost a shoe and I rode him on concrete without if he did lose a shoe - he wasn't footy in the slightest. In the ten years I had him he had two MINOR three day mild lamenesses - caused by him bolting on a road and treading on something sharp so bruised sole. He never had any other health issues other than strangles before I got him. Never had colic and was fed only grass (shock, horror, yes - grass!!) in summer and bran and coarse mix in winter with hay, up until his death. My 2nd horse can't comment because just used to have her shod even though she wasn't ridden due to being dangerous - so maybe she would have been fine barefoot - don't know. My current horse is a BIG 16.3 hunter type with very strong and good hoof wall. Never any cracks, very low maintenance, no thrush, holds shoes perfectly. Yet I tried her bf on her hinds and she was so crippled she couldn't move by the next morning. Vet came and said she has thin soles and seriously advised against ever taking her shoes off again due to her size etc. Shoes went back on a week later after box rest and bute - and she has remained in perfect health for two years since.

Every horse is very different and I find it infuriating, and extremely ignorant that someone should say that a horse is unhealthy just because it can't cope with being barefoot. Absolute bull doo doo.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm still waiting for the evidence that shows that there are very few shod horses which reach old age sound and healthy, which is what you have commented to me before cptrayes.

I suppose it's kind of the same point isn't it?!

I've never said that Moomin1, it's a complete fabrication on your part.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm confident that "fewer" horses are barefoot (and in work) than shod horses. I'd be curious to know, actually. It's not inconceivable someone's done a survey somewhere...

Of course there are fewer working horses barefoot than shod, you don't need a survey, you can see it with your own eyes everywhere.

A good proportion of the owners of those horses will be like I was for 25 years, brainwashed by custom and practice and by farriers and vets who knew no better that all hard working horses need shoes. I was spitting teeth when I found out that I had paid out a fortune for shoes for nearly 30 years that my horses never needed.

 

[cptrayes]

I've still not grasped why 'barefoot' horses who seem to go 'footy' each year when the grass comes through are still doing so years after becoming barefoot. Having a look through old threads, and recent ones, it's a classic and common theme that barefoot converts tend to go footy at this time of year, even those who have been barefoot for years. It's all down to diet, according to barefoot fans. In that case - why on earth do these people not get the correct diet right after so many years in order to prevent their horses from becoming footy and basically suffering pain?!
.

Oh Moomin1, please!

1. Grass starts to grow in spring with very high sugar levels, when it also happens to go very low in magnesium, which is required for the use of insulin and digestion of sugars. It's difficult to predict exactly when this is going to affect a susceptible horse's feet and a day or two of feeling the odd stone is not going to kill a barefoot horse if the owner is a tad late realising that they need to come in during the day.


2. The people who post that their barefoot horses have gone footie this year are not all the same ones year after year, they are new ones who haven't yet understood how much grass affects some horses and they come on this forum asking for friendly advice, which they get from some of us.

3. Footiness is not "suffering pain". If a horse treads on a stone and removes his foot quickly he is footie. But he has not been suffering pain, he removed his foot quickly to prevent himself from suffering pain. He's no more "suffering pain" than a shod horse who treads on a stone and removes his foot before it can damage him.

 

[meesha]

cptrayes - I went through this when farrier who had shod my horse for 3 years said "should be fine without shoes" when he took them off. she walked away better than when she had shoes..... but....... was never ever comfortable over the rocky ground we have here - we ride over stoney river beds, along stoney lanes etc. If she was barefoot and turned out in field or lived naturally on quantocks/mendips - yes she would have coped just fine barefoot but not ridden over the ground i rode over - we tried boots - these were okay but slippery in mud - she is barefoot now and retired and has excellent feet (according to farrier not just me) she is only trimmed once or twice a year as she has permanent access to harstanding and wears own feet naturally !

tried barefoot with gelding - managed for a while and got slower and slower out hacking - everyone said "oooh hasnt he calmed down" no! he is uncomfortable ! put shoes on and have back my forward going horse ! again he would have easily coped in a "natural" environment.

No-one is arguing that horses cant cope in general barefoot - of course they can - but ... they havent evolved to be ridden ! we ride them - there are consequences for some of what we ask them to do - one consequence is feet cant cope - if thats the case - shoes are an answer !

 

[cptrayes]

My 2nd horse can't comment because just used to have her shod even though she wasn't ridden due to being dangerous - so maybe she would have been fine barefoot - don't know.

My current horse ....... I tried her bf on her hinds and she was so crippled she couldn't move by the next morning ...... Vet came and said she has thin soles and seriously advised against ever taking her shoes off again due to her size etc.

i find it infuriating that you persistently post on barefoot threads quoting me as saying things I have never said, especially when your own record is that you couldn't even keep a pasture ornament without any shoes on.

As to your horse with thin soles, too thin for her to go without shoes, I had one of those. His vets and farrier said he couldn't go without shoes and were happy to see him put down, because while in shoes he could not be cured of his navicular disease.

I sorted out that horse's problems by realising that he had an extreme sensitivity to grass sugars and giving him the right diet for him and he hunted with his new owner alongside me this winter, barefoot.

Unless he gave you diet advice for your mare, then it would appear that your vet does not know enough about the reasons for horses having thin soles. He's certainly ignorant about big horses needing shoes. All of mine are 16.3 or 17 hands, two of them middleweights. They are the 3rd, 4th and 5th horses of that size I have done. I've had no failures, size is not an issue.

 

[cptrayes]

cptrayes - I went through this when farrier who had shod my horse for 3 years said "should be fine without shoes" when he took them off. she walked away better than when she had shoes..... but....... was never ever comfortable over the rocky ground we have here - we ride over stoney river beds, along stoney lanes etc. If she was barefoot and turned out in field or lived naturally on quantocks/mendips - yes she would have coped just fine barefoot but not ridden over the ground i rode over - we tried boots - these were okay but slippery in mud - she is barefoot now and retired and has excellent feet (according to farrier not just me) she is only trimmed once or twice a year as she has permanent access to harstanding and wears own feet naturally !

tried barefoot with gelding - managed for a while and got slower and slower out hacking - everyone said "oooh hasnt he calmed down" no! he is uncomfortable ! put shoes on and have back my forward going horse ! again he would have easily coped in a "natural" environment.

No-one is arguing that horses cant cope in general barefoot - of course they can - but ... they havent evolved to be ridden ! we ride them - there are consequences for some of what we ask them to do - one consequence is feet cant cope - if thats the case - shoes are an answer !

Meesha what did you feed your two horses that failed to cope? Did you have a mineral analysis of their forage? Were you able, with your work or family commitments, to give them a build-up to the work you were asking them to do, and to keep up the miles week after week that feet that have to cope with stones often need? Were they out in wet ground all winter? Did they have an undiagnosed Cushings or IR problem? How long is a piece of string?

Some horses do it easily. Some don't. You had two that, had you wanted to keep them without shoes on, needed a lot more investigation before you could truly say that they couldn't cope.

The only thing you can say is that, in the environment that you were able to give them, they needed shoes. There's nothing wrong with that, plenty of owners are in the same situation and most horses cope fine with shoes for their whole lives.

 

[tallyho!]

No-one is arguing that horses cant cope in general barefoot - of course they can - but ... they havent evolved to be ridden ! we ride them - there are consequences for some of what we ask them to do - one consequence is feet cant cope - if thats the case - shoes are an answer !

You are so right. No they did not evolve to be ridden.

Their hooves can withstand weight fluctuations between 15-20% to account for a natural weight gain/weight loss cycle and carrying of a foal in the wild. The feet can cope with this as well as walking on varied terrain on average 20 miles a day. The hoof is an amazing structure and contrary to popular belief, it can cope with a rider despite the laws of evolution not telling them anything about having to carry a wobbly human on its back til it dies!

However, they didn't evolve in various sized squares of cattle pasture neither and I think we have to take this into account when dealing with horses in the UK where many horses livery in these conditions... the metabolism of a horse has not evolved quickly enough to cope with this amount of rich food plus or minus extra protein and starch in the form of grains etc. coupled with exercise that accounts for the majority a few miles a week. Unfortunately, the effects manifest in hoof problems in some cases. So, the right thing to do is shoe so they can carry on living like this, supposedly pain free.

For some horses, the damaging effects on the metabolism is irreversible. e.g. EMS is equivalent to diabetes in humans. Unfortunately, the drug companies haven't made a 'gliptin' for horses yet. So all we have is diet modulation... perhaps metformin for those that tolerate it... once the problem is already there.

We don't "do" prevention widely yet in this country. The answer to our metabolic problem seems to be to shoe the horses and ponies. Interesting isn't it?

 

[JFTDWS]

Cptrayes, don't be obtuse I was clearly saying a survey indicating proportions would be informative. And indeed would end the bickering about whether it is appropriate to classify the number as 'very few' since we are all agreed that it is definitely 'fewer'.

 

[tallyho!]

Cptrayes, don't be obtuse I was clearly saying a survey indicating proportions would be informative. And indeed would end the bickering about whether it is appropriate to classify the number as 'very few' since we are all agreed that it is definitely 'fewer'.

Why don't you do one?

 

[Wagtail]

cptrayes - I went through this when farrier who had shod my horse for 3 years said "should be fine without shoes" when he took them off. she walked away better than when she had shoes..... but....... was never ever comfortable over the rocky ground we have here - we ride over stoney river beds, along stoney lanes etc. If she was barefoot and turned out in field or lived naturally on quantocks/mendips - yes she would have coped just fine barefoot but not ridden over the ground i rode over - we tried boots - these were okay but slippery in mud - she is barefoot now and retired and has excellent feet (according to farrier not just me) she is only trimmed once or twice a year as she has permanent access to harstanding and wears own feet naturally !

tried barefoot with gelding - managed for a while and got slower and slower out hacking - everyone said "oooh hasnt he calmed down" no! he is uncomfortable ! put shoes on and have back my forward going horse ! again he would have easily coped in a "natural" environment.

No-one is arguing that horses cant cope in general barefoot - of course they can - but ... they havent evolved to be ridden ! we ride them - there are consequences for some of what we ask them to do - one consequence is feet cant cope - if thats the case - shoes are an answer !

I agree with what you say. There is one other factor too, the influence of man controlled breeding. We have bred horses for strength and speed for centuries and little attention is given to the strength of their feet. Therefore we have thousands of TBs with paper thin soles to their feet, which shuold not be forced to go barefoot. In the wild, these horses would have been weeded out through natural selection. Any horse with poor feet would not be able to keep up with the herd and therefore would never get the chance to breed.

I am all for barefoot horses. I have one totally barefoot, the other has fronts because he has poor TB feet. My sister has a TB that she has persevered for four years with, barefoot. She is a qualified barefoot trimmer. He hardly has a day when he is not sore or has a bruise or abscess. I would have given up and put shoes on him long ago. Her other horses' feet are the nicest I have ever seen. The others just thrive on being barefoot.

 

[xxMozlarxx]

I've still not grasped why 'barefoot' horses who seem to go 'footy' each year when the grass comes through are still doing so years after becoming barefoot. Having a look through old threads, and recent ones, it's a classic and common theme that barefoot converts tend to go footy at this time of year, even those who have been barefoot for years. It's all down to diet, according to barefoot fans. In that case - why on earth do these people not get the correct diet right after so many years in order to prevent their horses from becoming footy and basically suffering pain?! If they are incapable of doing so - then please - put shoes on and give the horse some relief.

I have had three horses in my lifetime - one for ten years until he died at the age of 40, the other who I had for two years and sold on, and my latest who I have had two years and will never sell on. My old pony would stay sound even if he lost a shoe and I rode him on concrete without if he did lose a shoe - he
wasn't footy in the slightest. In the ten years I had him he had two MINOR
three day mild lamenesses - caused by him bolting on a road and treading on
something sharp so bruised sole. He never had any other health issues other
than strangles before I got him. Never had colic and was fed only grass
(shock, horror, yes - grass!!) in summer and bran and coarse mix in winter
with hay, up until his death. My 2nd horse can't comment because just used
to have her shod even though she wasn't ridden due to being dangerous - so
maybe she would have been fine barefoot - don't know. My current horse is a
BIG 16.3 hunter type with very strong and good hoof wall. Never any cracks,
very low maintenance, no thrush, holds shoes perfectly. Yet I tried her bf on
her hinds and she was so crippled she couldn't move by the next morning. Vet
came and said she has thin soles and seriously advised against ever taking her
shoes off again due to her size etc. Shoes went back on a week later after
box rest and bute - and she has remained in perfect health for two years
since.
Every horse is very different and I find it infuriating, and extremely ignorant that someone should say that a horse is unhealthy just because it can't cope with being barefoot. Absolute bull doo doo.

So basically you've never had an unshod horse and therefore have no experience of it. I always find it best to have some relevant experience of an issue before trying to debate it.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes, don't be obtuse I was clearly saying a survey indicating proportions would be informative. And indeed would end the bickering about whether it is appropriate to classify the number as 'very few' since we are all agreed that it is definitely 'fewer'.

I am not being obtuse. I do not think a survey would tell you anything meaningful at all.

We know already that more working horses are shod than barefoot. What we don't know is how many of those shod horses would be perfectly fine without their shoes, and how many more who wouldn't be OK would have been perfectly fine if they hadn't been shod as a youngster, or how many of the ones that wouldn't be perfectly OK have undiagnosed Cushings or IR.

It is the norm to shoe because it is the current received wisdom that working horses need shoes. While that remains the case there will be more working horses shod than barefoot. A survey will tell you nothing except that when it is repeated it will show that more and more working horses are going without shoes, as the myth that all working horses need shoes begins to bite the dust.

 

[meesha]

my gelding had no existing conditions and was in good health - the work was built up gradually and - he was barefoot from backing for 1.5 years - no hard feed - good all round supplement - worm counts all clear - picture of health - 24hour access to hardstanding which they were fed hay on when required (no it wasnt soaked but their "footiness did not coincide with feed changes but was consistent) they were worked regularly over varied terrain. they were trimmed when required and were on restricted turnout on old pasture that had not been fertilised or improved in anyway. They were the right weight.

Barefoot gelding struggled - I put on hoof boots before shoeing to make sure I was correct in thinking he was footy and suddenly he was forward going - I shod and he has remained sound and forward going ever since.

I am only speaking from experience but I think to believe that a change in diet would resolve the footiness is not considering the terrain I ride over - if I had been on the edge of dartmoor and didnt have to do the stoney tracks etc then he could have remained barefoot.

My management cannot be that far off if my mare who is retired still has "perfect" feet which wear down naturally - she is never footy but then again is never ridden.

 

[tallyho!]

Just wondering..... how do the ponies of Dartmoor, New Forest, Highlands, Welsh etc survive without shoes on the rugged terrain? How come they don't get lami?

 

[BeesKnees]

It's interesting, and illogical of course, that people argue horses haven't evolved to cope with the work we ask them to do, when in reality what they evolved to do was much more 'work' i.e. The miles they would naturally travel over all sorts of ground in the wild and the limited sources of food. Even after domestication we traditionally asked them to work many hours a day. Now we think if we ride an hour a day that's more than enough, and then we stick them in relatively restricted areas full of rich spring grass!

There's such a clear analogy with humans. Pro shoo-ers often cite that us humans don't walk around barefoot, but of course millions of people in the world do exactly that. They cope fine over, their feet develop the thick soles they need. We just don't see it in the
rich, soft, West and we extrapolate from our immediate experience to create what seems 'normal'.

In humans there are now theories that insulin resistance tendencies particularly seen in some ethnic groups such as Asians evolved to keep people alive when their access to food was limited, as it helped them store fat. Jump a few centuries forward and in those Developing countries you now have a middle class with more money, sedentary jobs, and much much more food. But the insulin resistance is still there'. Bingo, you have a diabetes time bomb.

In terms of treatment, you can radically alter your diet and lifestyle and do exercise which increases insulin sensitivity and therefore helps you deal with blood sugar (the BF
equivalent!), or you can choose not to change your lifestyle and take drugs (arguably the shoe-ing option though I don't mean that in a judgmental way).

Looking at it from a human point of view, the lifestyle changes that barefooters make for their horses don't seem extreme to me.

 

[cptrayes]

My sister has a TB that she has persevered for four years with, barefoot. She is a qualified barefoot trimmer. He hardly has a day when he is not sore or has a bruise or abscess. I would have given up and put shoes on him long ago. Her other horses' feet are the nicest I have ever seen. The others just thrive on being barefoot.

I hope you love her Wagtail , she sounds a bit daft and not a good example for a barefoot trimmer. In my opinion, a horse should not be left uncomfortable for weeks, never mind months or years .