Horse is very footy and don't know what to do

cptrayes said:
I note with interest that you don't care one iota that there are owners paying £800 a year to have their horses shod when they don't need shoes...

You are the one who wants the answer, not Tallyho. So it's you who should do the research, and Tallyho has no problem, so why the attack?
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I couldn't care less if other owners choose to pay for unnecessary shoes - same as I don't care if people pay for unnecessary matchy matchy or pay to bath their horses in £100 shampoo. It's their horse and their money to spend as they please :confused:

My point in the first place was that you claimed "very few" to be inaccurate. But if 2% of the working population are barefoot, that is "very few", relatively speaking, regardless of the number that 2% comprises of. Without that %, or an absolute number, you have no basis to claim that "very few" is inaccurate, imho. In real terms, no I don't care what proportion or how many horses are barefoot. I do care in the context of this thread, where claims are being thrown about without any of us actually knowing.

Tallyho "attacked" me in the first place - I haven't said anything on this Tallyho on this thread and yet she tells me to "go and do one"? Seems fair enough to respond, to me.

tallyho! said:
Why don't you do one?
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Wagtail said:
Laminitis is very different to having thin soles. I completely agree, that if this horse was suffering bouts of laminitis, that there would be an obvious metabolic factor at work.
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I need to do some reading but in my understanding for soles to grow thicker you need a good lamina connection throughout the hoof. Thin soles are often present in laminitis whether through 'rotation' or sinking and the key to righting the hoof capsule position around P3 is growing a hoof with good lamina connection to ground level.

Thin soles due to other reasons than faulty lamina connection and/or sole corium inflammation I don't know much about I admit.
 
cptrayes said:
Insulin resistance can cause either or both.
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I have two insulin resistant horses on my yard. They both live on fresh air and still have fat pads above their eyes, a slight crest and fat pads on their rump and behind their shoulders. This is the case even when they are at an ideal weight. This horse needs lots of forage to keep weight on. He has clear hollows above his eyes and not a fat pad in sight. ETA, both the horses on my yard with IR have fabulous feet and so far have not suffered a laminitic attack, although I expect they would if I didn't manage their diet and weight very carefully.
 
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So hang on, we are now suggesting that to allow our horses to go bare foot then we might have to have them on a grass free diet?

Is this correct?

If so, forget it. I try to keep my lot in as natural an enviroment as possible, this means they are not stables 24/7 or kept in a small bare paddock. They are allowed to roam in their field, get natural shelter and mix in a herd. All things they would do in the wild and ensures it keeps their guts healthy sue to constant grazing on natures diet(all be it, in a smaller field) This has led to a happy herd.

if I have read this wrong then I am happy to be corrected.
 
Wagtail said:
I have two insulin resistant horses on my yard. They both live on fresh air and still have fat pads above their eyes, a slight crest and fat pads on their rump and behind their shoulders. This is the case even when they are at an ideal weight. This horse needs lots of forage to keep weight on. He has clear hollows above his eyes and not a fat pad in sight. ETA, both these horses have fabulous feet and so far have not suffered a laminitic attack, although I expect they would if I didn't manage their diet and weight very carefully.
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Clearly not all insulin resistant horses react the same way to excess insulin in the bloodstream. Perhaps your sister's horse has a genetic predisposition to thin soles and is tipped into outright soreness by a mild case of the condition? Who knows. You know 2 who have great soles and I know 2 who were cripples. One was put down, the other was my rehab who I took off grass and now hunts.
 
jftd, I think that tallyho was suggesting that if interested you might like to do a survey, although I read it as you did in the first instance so I might be wrong :o.
 
ester said:
jftd, I think that tallyho was suggesting that if interested you might like to do a survey, although I read it as you did in the first instance so I might be wrong :o.
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In which case, tallyho has my apologies and I would refer her to the above statements about not really caring outside of the context of this thread. I did think it was an unnecessary and unprovoked attack :p
 
amandap said:
I need to do some reading but in my understanding for soles to grow thicker you need a good lamina connection throughout the hoof. Thin soles are often present in laminitis whether through 'rotation' or sinking and the key to righting the hoof capsule position around P3 is growing a hoof with good lamina connection to ground level.

Thin soles due to other reasons than faulty lamina connection and/or sole corium inflammation I don't know much about I admit.
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But isn't faulty lamina connection, laminitis? Of course laminitis will affect all structures of the foot eventually. This horse does not have laminitis.
 
JFTD said:
I couldn't care less if other owners choose to pay for unnecessary shoes - same as I don't care if people pay for unnecessary matchy matchy or pay to bath their horses in £100 shampoo. It's their horse and their money to spend as they please :confused:

My point in the first place was that you claimed "very few" to be inaccurate. But if 2% of the working population are barefoot, that is "very few", relatively speaking, regardless of the number that 2% comprises of. Without that %, or an absolute number, you have no basis to claim that "very few" is inaccurate, imho. In real terms, no I don't care what proportion or how many horses are barefoot. I do care in the context of this thread, where claims are being thrown about without any of us actually knowing.

Tallyho "attacked" me in the first place - I haven't said anything on this Tallyho on this thread and yet she tells me to "go and do one"? Seems fair enough to respond, to me.
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No-one tells anyone that their horse will be lamed if they don't use matchy-matchy, your examples are daft.

Very few is not a proportion, it's an absolute. Look up the dictionary definition of "few" if you do not understand this.

"Not many but more than one"
 
Some horses will get severe symptoms on some grasses. You have a choice with a horse like this and it is a very personal one.

The problem for many horses is the grasses we have genetically engineered to be high in starch etc. for fattening cattle. Many cattle also suffer severely from laminitis but most have a limited life span. This is such a huge thing that it seems inconceivable that grass and hays themselves can be a problem. This is where tracks etc. can be invaluble. Many grasses are also vastly out of kilter in the minerals they supply so finding out how bad this is and feeding bespoke minerals can be hugely beneficial to some horses.

The thing is in a shod horse you wont/might not know there might be a problem unless there is a breakdown of some sort.
 
guido16 said:
So hang on, we are now suggesting that to allow our horses to go bare foot then we might have to have them on a grass free diet?

Is this correct?

If so, forget it. I try to keep my lot in as natural an enviroment as possible, this means they are not stables 24/7 or kept in a small bare paddock. They are allowed to roam in their field, get natural shelter and mix in a herd. All things they would do in the wild and ensures it keeps their guts healthy sue to constant grazing on natures diet(all be it, in a smaller field) This has led to a happy herd.

if I have read this wrong then I am happy to be corrected.
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This is true of a very, very small proportion of horses, most of whom need a grass free diet for other reasons than barefoot - laminitis, Cushings, IR, allergy.
 
JFTD said:
Tallyho "attacked" me in the first place - I haven't said anything on this Tallyho on this thread and yet she tells me to "go and do one"? Seems fair enough to respond, to me.
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:confused: I read TH's post as friendly. She was asking you why don't you do a survey. I read it as suggesting you run a poll on here or set up a survey monkey to ask the question. Of course I might be wrong.
 
cptrayes said:
No-one tells anyone that their horse will be lamed if they don't use matchy-matchy, your examples are daft.

Very few is not a proportion, it's an absolute. Look up the dictionary definition of "few" if you do not understand this.

"Not many but more than one"
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I am, in fact, aware of the definition of "few". However, "many" is invariably relative to the population size you're dealing with - a few smarties from a tube is probably fewer than a few of the stars in the universe. I feel this is digressing into pedantry and is certainly off topic. I never said "few" was a proportion, I said that a proportion may indicate if "few" is accurate or otherwise, more so than speculation about how many horses one knows who are barefoot or otherwise.

I don't recall "people telling you your horse will be lame without matchy matchy" as being relevant to my post. My point is, I don't care if people choose to spend money on shoes or anything else, regardless of why they choose to do so - I don't understand why that is causing you confusion?
 
cptrayes,

Understand that "medical" reasons are reasons that of course you would remove them from grass, but do you think it is appropriate to remove a horse from grass for the sole reason of allowing it to go barefoot?

Just curious.
 
Wagtail said:
But isn't faulty lamina connection, laminitis? Of course laminitis will affect all structures of the foot eventually. This horse does not have laminitis.
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Of course. :)
It isn't always/usually to the degree that we see in an acute bout though. Some symptoms... constant wall ripples, white line disease/seedy toe, forward running toes/under run heels are just some in what has been coined as 'low grade laminitis'. Any dietary problem can cause lamina problems which is techniquely laminitis. Pete Ramey uses the pregnant woman analogy for laminitis... you can't be just a little bit pregnant, you either are or you're not.

Laminitis is just a symptom of something wrong physiologically/metabolically which can be worsened by mechanical forces.
 
guido16 said:
cptrayes,

Understand that "medical" reasons are reasons that of course you would remove them from grass, but do you think it is appropriate to remove a horse from grass for the sole reason of allowing it to go barefoot?

Just curious.
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The reason for removing some horses from grass has nothing to do with going barefoot. It has everything to do with getting a horse as healthy as possible.

I have come to see hooves as windows into a horse's health. If the hooves are healthy then everything is going well with the horses metabolism. It just so happens that being shoeless provides an early warning system as well as other benefits.
 
amandap said:
The reason for removing some horses from grass has nothing to do with going barefoot. It has everything to do with getting a horse as healthy as possible.

I have come to see hooves as windows into a horse's health. If the hooves are healthy then everything is going well with the horses metabolism. It just so happens that being shoeless provides an early warning system as well as other benefits.
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Thanks for clarifying this.
 
I am a fan of barefoot, but there are certain types of hooves that I would take one look at and not even try with. They are almost always TBs or WBs with a high amount of TB in them. I do have one TB on the yard that is happily barefoot and pretty rock crunching though! In my experience IR horses tend to be native types and cob types, occasionally WBs with some pony blood in them. Not saying it is always the case, just my experience. Cushings on the other hand tends to affect all breeds equally.
 
tallyho! said:
You are so right. No they did not evolve to be ridden.

Their hooves can withstand weight fluctuations between 15-20% to account for a natural weight gain/weight loss cycle and carrying of a foal in the wild. The feet can cope with this as well as walking on varied terrain on average 20 miles a day. The hoof is an amazing structure and contrary to popular belief, it can cope with a rider despite the laws of evolution not telling them anything about having to carry a wobbly human on its back til it dies!

However, they didn't evolve in various sized squares of cattle pasture neither and I think we have to take this into account when dealing with horses in the UK where many horses livery in these conditions... the metabolism of a horse has not evolved quickly enough to cope with this amount of rich food plus or minus extra protein and starch in the form of grains etc. coupled with exercise that accounts for the majority a few miles a week. Unfortunately, the effects manifest in hoof problems in some cases. So, the right thing to do is shoe so they can carry on living like this, supposedly pain free.

For some horses, the damaging effects on the metabolism is irreversible. e.g. EMS is equivalent to diabetes in humans. Unfortunately, the drug companies haven't made a 'gliptin' for horses yet. So all we have is diet modulation... perhaps metformin for those that tolerate it... once the problem is already there.

We don't "do" prevention widely yet in this country. The answer to our metabolic problem seems to be to shoe the horses and ponies. Interesting isn't it?
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Good post.

tallyho! said:
Just wondering..... how do the ponies of Dartmoor, New Forest, Highlands, Welsh etc survive without shoes on the rugged terrain? How come they don't get lami?
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Interesting isn't it. Here on Exmoor there is a particular beauty spot,with car park which the National Parks have 'improved' by removing gorse etc. The ponies are often seen there. The tourists love it! So The Parks decided to put in a water trough to encourage the ponies to hang around on the large area of grass rather than disappearing down the valley to the river. Now there are reports of wild ponies with laminitis.


Wagtail said:
Oh he has been in boots, pads, you name it. His feet are dressed and dusted, poulticed when needed, and cleaned daily. But the same old problems keep resurfacing. His soles are so thin you can actually push them in with your thumb. But in her eyes, shoeing is cruel. To be frank, I don't know enough about shoeing to say otherwise. I have certainly seen some convincing anti shoeing clips on you tube. But in my mind there are not too many TBs that can comfortably go without shoes. Certainly none of mine ever could.
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There are so many aspects to good feet. No one has all the answers,yet! But the great thing is there are many people out there trying to find the answers,from ordinary people like me through to vets, farriers,nutritionists and other professionals.
I wonder,for instance if the horses 1st 24 hours of life have a bearing on the feet. They are born with feathery soles like this............
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which are stimulated to harden by the ground. Is the fact that many foals spend this important 1st day on a soft bed a factor? Or could it be the 'stud mix' and lush grass given to the dam that sets the foal up too well?
As I said,there is so much we don't know. The great thing about many barefoot fanatics is that they know this and are looking for answers.
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm still waiting for the evidence that shows that there are very few shod horses which reach old age sound and healthy, which is what you have commented to me before cptrayes.

I suppose it's kind of the same point isn't it?! ;)
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not sure what evidence you are looking for but here are 2 of mine. (I have more but they are not that old, only 20 or so which is hardly old age)
First one I got as 7yo, he was cobX (probably welsh cob) he was barefoot all his life and PTS at 31. Never had a foot problem or a leg problem and died of pneumonia. Ridden daily and did lots of pleasure rides of 25 miles.

Second is my 27 yo arab who was barefoot from 6 till he retired at 26. No foot problems and no leg problems. Mileage was in the tens of thousands of miles. He got cushings at 27 which I don't really see as a consequence of being barefoot.
Are these suitable examples?
 
Well if he was fine before he had the farrier, maybe the farrier trimed off a little too much which has made him a bit tender over an uneven surface, i.e like cutting your finger nails a little too close !:)
 
The feathers on new borns hooves are fasinating. I thought the hoof had exploded the first time I saw a photo of them. :rolleyes: :o I wonder if they are there as remnants of a cover that is there to protect the mare and aid easy passage during birth?

I suppose recording info re shoeing of pts horses might give some clues as to longevity.
 
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Fascinating point about the first 24 hrs having an affect. Especially in view of the fact the breeds known for tough feet are often born outdoors. Does anyone know if there's been any comprehensive study done on it? I agree re the pic, saw a foal born in my early teens & thought it had a major defect till someone explained.
 
paddy555 said:
not sure what evidence you are looking for but here are 2 of mine. (I have more but they are not that old, only 20 or so which is hardly old age)
First one I got as 7yo, he was cobX (probably welsh cob) he was barefoot all his life and PTS at 31. Never had a foot problem or a leg problem and died of pneumonia. Ridden daily and did lots of pleasure rides of 25 miles.

Second is my 27 yo arab who was barefoot from 6 till he retired at 26. No foot problems and no leg problems. Mileage was in the tens of thousands of miles. He got cushings at 27 which I don't really see as a consequence of being barefoot.
Are these suitable examples?
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It's actually a false claim that there was a comment made that SHOD horses aren't healthy...in fact no such comment was made, I was part of the debate in question, some peeps just don't read what's written properly and make up their own interpretation! :confused:
 
JFTD said:
Tallyho "attacked" me in the first place - I haven't said anything on this Tallyho on this thread and yet she tells me to "go and do one"? Seems fair enough to respond, to me.
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*spits coffee over iPad*......sorry for laughing, Tallyho was suggesting you do the research/survey. :p
 
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