Horses losing condition in the winter

[Bop!]

I have a good do-er.

I could feed him the "recommended" amount during the winter so he maintains his "ideal" body weight all winter. Then restrict his grazing all summer, meaning he has to spend the majority of the time alone (either in a taped off section of the field or in his stable). This way he would maintain the same condition all year round.

Instead, I choose to feed him so that he looses weight in the winter and comes into spring looking lean, ribs being easily felt and sometimes even showing . He spends the summer with his friends out 24hrs, on reasonable but not good grazing, getting a little fatter week by week and being ridden daily to keep him fit (and cause we both quite like it really). He goes into the winter looking a little too round but not obese.

Have tried it the other way (lack of knowledge when I first got him many moons ago) and I know which way we both prefer . Nothing to do with economics, just what appears to be best for MY horse.

Interestingly, he doesn't seem to get fatter and fatter each summer as you suggest he should?

 

[Dolcé]

I have a good do-er.
Interestingly, he doesn't seem to get fatter and fatter each summer as you suggest he should?

(whispers) That's because Wagtail didn't really understand how the metabolism of a horse works, hopefully that has now been remedied!!

 

[Bop!]

(whispers) That's because Wagtail didn't really understand how the metabolism of a horse works, hopefully that has now been remedied!!

Ahh, right, thought I had some sort of enigma horse for a minute there

 

[fidleyspromise]

I've learned that my ponies know what's best for them.
2 winters ago I put haynets out to highland in field (ground was frozen and covered in snow so no grass) and she barely went through one (6kg) haynet in a 24 hour period. She came out of winter fatter than she went in but I couldn't give her any less hay. I gave her what she would eat and there was some hay left. I gradually managed to get her up to one a half haynets max occassionally.

Unlimited good quality hay, no rugs except for the absolute harshest days/nights and out 24/7 has served me well with her.

I do prefer to see a little weight drop off in winter and then in summer rather than cut their grazing down and therefore the amount of space for them to move about in, they can stay in each paddock with the grass.

 

[Wagtail]

Funnily enough you don't mention feed bills (as in halving your own) until your post 23 and don't mention that being the reason for people allowing their horses to lose weight until your post 33. I think you are changing the goal posts as you go along!

No, I am not. This thread was always aimed at all the people who use 'horses are meant to lose condition over winter' as an excuse not to feed horses that need it. (Hence the reference to 'poor management'). I wanted to hear all the excuses first, as who knows, it may not have been the case. And indeed there are a few exceptions and very good reasons why some people cannot keep the weight on their horses in winter. All in all an interesting discussion.

There really is no need for people to get ratty if they know they are doing the right thing. After all, in horses, we all differ in our opinions.

 

[Serenity087]

Excuses...shoestring...

Huh? I have never ever in my life cut corners as far as my horses feed is concerned!

Seriously, once she even had a bucket of topline, sugarbeet and chaff for breakfast lunch and dinner because she was so thin (that WAS when I bought her mind...).

Funnily enough she turned psycho and has never, ever had SB again.

Dorey thrives on a handful of food. She had half a scoop when she was in work but isn't now and it would be dangerous to keep that up - she went out for a walk yesterday in a bridle and STILL did a rather alarming stallion impression down the middle of the road!

My issue with your so called advice is that to keep weight on her over winter, I would need to substiture what she doesn't eat calorie wise in hay (because she's stuffed full of high fibre low energy feed) with cereals - which would turn her phsyco.
You also suggest she would be underrugged as I physically couldn't feed her any more roughage, but any more rugs and she'd be sweating.

You are showing a basic lack of understanding of the basic principle of balancing requirement and appitite. Despite what even your most dogged shetland will insist, horses DO have a limit. Throwing poor hay (because by midwinter, it is usually the poorer stuff) and poor grazing at an animal with a limitited appitite will not result in it keeping weight on - it will not eat it.
To balance, an overabundance of cereals must be fed to correct which can only result in digestive upsets (colic) and nutritional disorders (laminitus).

Feeding cows "Wagtail Style" can be fatal, in fact.

Now my CV includes a degree in animal science which includes modules in animal nutrition. So I don't really care how many model ponies you've collected on your window sill in 30 years, or whatever it is, I actually UNDERSTAND the BASIC PRINCIPLE of why my horse drops weight in winter.

And, as it happens, she looked bloody good despite it!!!

 

[Wagtail]

Well wagtail by your assumptions i will be a person that starves my horses to save money
As 2 winters ago i was dumping round bales of haylage out in th fields and getting through 18 bales a week, and along with hard feed, cant say any of the horse came out the winter looking fab but not skinny either and were all in lovely warm H/W rugs (first winter for the horses in this country)
So last winter i cut back on the haylage and hard feed oh yeah and half of them not rugged and a couple in L/W and do you know what they all came out the winter better than the year before.
So yes i cut my bills prob in half and still did not have 20 horses dead from starvation, and last years was a worse winter

Your horses did not drop condition because of your management if they came out of winter better than when you fed them more. Though this is, indeed a strange one. Any ideas why this was the case?

 

[Serenity087]

And, if it makes you feel any stupider than you already do right now, I will dig out the mathematical equations to show you how you achieve an animals energy requirement taking into account the energy supplied by roughage and cereals limited by the appitite of the animal...

You cannot give an animal limiteless energy in roughage. It just doesn't fit in there!

 

[Wagtail]

I think the duff information that you are spouting is rubbish! You should at least do a bit of research and get some links up here to back up what you are saying, I suspect you would have difficulty finding any!

Which bit of information is rubbish?

 

[Wagtail]

The suggestion that the metabolism of the horse is the same as that of a human, is very concerning. The digestive systems of the two animals are not the same, one being a herbivore and the other being an omnivore, something which the OP went on at length about in a different thread.

All animals start to shut down their metabolism when underfed. It is part of survival. A quick search regarding horses specifically came up with this:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Horses-Diet-Nutrition-3330/2009/10/underwight-standardbred.htm

There are more but I really can't be bothered when people are so set in their ways.

 

[Wagtail]

Huh? I have never ever in my life cut corners as far as my horses feed is concerned!

Seriously, once she even had a bucket of topline, sugarbeet and chaff for breakfast lunch and dinner because she was so thin (that WAS when I bought her mind...).

Funnily enough she turned psycho and has never, ever had SB again.

Dorey thrives on a handful of food. She had half a scoop when she was in work but isn't now and it would be dangerous to keep that up - she went out for a walk yesterday in a bridle and STILL did a rather alarming stallion impression down the middle of the road!

My issue with your so called advice is that to keep weight on her over winter, I would need to substiture what she doesn't eat calorie wise in hay (because she's stuffed full of high fibre low energy feed) with cereals - which would turn her phsyco.
You also suggest she would be underrugged as I physically couldn't feed her any more roughage, but any more rugs and she'd be sweating.

You are showing a basic lack of understanding of the basic principle of balancing requirement and appitite. Despite what even your most dogged shetland will insist, horses DO have a limit. Throwing poor hay (because by midwinter, it is usually the poorer stuff) and poor grazing at an animal with a limitited appitite will not result in it keeping weight on - it will not eat it.
To balance, an overabundance of cereals must be fed to correct which can only result in digestive upsets (colic) and nutritional disorders (laminitus).

Feeding cows "Wagtail Style" can be fatal, in fact.

Now my CV includes a degree in animal science which includes modules in animal nutrition. So I don't really care how many model ponies you've collected on your window sill in 30 years, or whatever it is, I actually UNDERSTAND the BASIC PRINCIPLE of why my horse drops weight in winter.

And, as it happens, she looked bloody good despite it!!!

You are talking about one of your horses (therefore an exception) not all of them. I have already said many times that there are exceptions to this. If your horse's generally do not lose weight over winter, then why are you supporting weight loss for horses over winter?

FYI I hate cereals for horses too and only feed them on request of the owners. Mine get none.

 

[rhino]

There are more but I really can't be bothered when people are so set in their ways.

People aren't set in their ways at all! I would love to see some more articles, although would prefer some peer reviewed journal articles if possible.

I have a couple of biochem degrees and am finding this fascinating

 

[Wagtail]

People aren't set in their ways at all! I would love to see some more articles, although would prefer some peer reviewed journal articles if possible.

I have a couple of biochem degrees and am finding this fascinating

Great! I am going to search for some peer reviewed studies then. In the meantime this is an interesting artical in the New Zealand Journal of Agricultural that supports my opinion that metabolic rates decrease when horses are underfed:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=5&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And this is very interesting regarding the heating qualities of various forages and feeds, and also touches on the effects of feed on metabolic rate:
http://www.mitavite.com.au/mitavite06/PDF/Nutritional Information PDF/Vet notes/Winter Feeding.pdf

 

[ThePinkPony]

In general any animal, or humans, metabolic rate decreases when they are underfed. My metabolism is at a snails rate from years of eating disorders so i can vouch for that bad boy.

And i have to agree, they may not be horses but during winter all our dogs get fed more but dont put on any weight, usually they come out of winter looking a tad on the lean side, when they spend most of summer just being walked and then when autumn starts they go into the full days work. Our dogs are more likely to drop weight in summer, especially in this heat weirdly.

 

[siennamum]

I didn't realise we were talking about horses which are going into starvation mode. I read your premise as that if horses lose condition over Winter it is because the owners are trying to cut costs by not feeding them.

1. It is healthy & natural for horses to have faster metabolisms in Winter because they are burning more rougage to assist in keeping warm. Many owners try to keep their horses as naturally as possible and see this as normal.

2. Some owners will in fact use this natural weight loss as a means of buffering against the sudden arrival of Spring grass and the impact that may have on the horses waistline.

3. These horses are in great condition and well cared for, no expense is spared in their management BUT their condition does fluctuate over the year.

Do you agree with any of the above Wagtail or do you think these practices are bad management?

 

[Dolcé]

I didn't realise we were talking about horses which are going into starvation mode. I read your premise as that if horses lose condition over Winter it is because the owners are trying to cut costs by not feeding them.

1. It is healthy & natural for horses to have faster metabolisms in Winter because they are burning more rougage to assist in keeping warm. Many owners try to keep their horses as naturally as possible and see this as normal.

2. Some owners will in fact use this natural weight loss as a means of buffering against the sudden arrival of Spring grass and the impact that may have on the horses waistline.

3. These horses are in great condition and well cared for, no expense is spared in their management BUT their condition does fluctuate over the year.

Do you agree with any of the above Wagtail or do you think these practices are bad management?

I didn't realise we were talking about animals in starvation mode either (which totally changes things), as I said, the goal posts are changing constantly! I think there is a huge difference between owners allowing their horses to drop weight over winter and allowing their horses to starve. If we are talking starvation then that should have been made clear from the start and would have changed the results of the poll completely, as would mentioning horses dropping weight because the owners are too tight to feed their horses properly. The poll is completely pointless as it is obviously worded incorrectly and has misled people as to what the actual question refers to!

 

[touchstone]

The article in the first link you've posted Wagtail is from 1959, I think that more recent articles would be more relevant and the second confirms that metabolic rate speeds up in colder underfed horses as the roughage isn't providing heat so the horse needs to produce its own from fat reserves.

Also it states that there are two types of ponies, those that have laminitis and those that will get lammintis and that winter should be an opportunity to drop some weight for these animals.

 

[rhino]

Thanks for the articles.

(a) interesting but over 50 years old and about dairy cows, whose metabolism will be rather different from horses (it is amazing how much research on ruminants simply cannot be translated to other animals)

(b)not sure what this was meant to prove but I took these points from it:

making it important to prevent excess condition in winter as risk of laminitis (founder) is higher when spring pastures come through.

obviously the important word here is 'excess' although this would also suggest that having a leaner horse coming out of winter could be beneficial

Thin horses have a higher metabolic rate just to maintain body temperature because they lack insulation

self explanatory

To sustain a high metabolic rate without losing condition, horses must be given more feed or feed with a higher energy-density

self explanatory

Again interesting, although hardly a respected journal article (and no sources given). Thanks

 

[Wagtail]

I didn't realise we were talking about horses which are going into starvation mode. I read your premise as that if horses lose condition over Winter it is because the owners are trying to cut costs by not feeding them.

1. It is healthy & natural for horses to have faster metabolisms in Winter because they are burning more rougage to assist in keeping warm. Many owners try to keep their horses as naturally as possible and see this as normal.

2. Some owners will in fact use this natural weight loss as a means of buffering against the sudden arrival of Spring grass and the impact that may have on the horses waistline.

3. These horses are in great condition and well cared for, no expense is spared in their management BUT their condition does fluctuate over the year.

Do you agree with any of the above Wagtail or do you think these practices are bad management?

I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?

I do not believe that horses NEED to contend with the effects of Spring Grass. I never SUDDENLY expose horses to Spring grass. It should be a gradual process. I also believe that it is far worse to have sudden weight gain than keeping a horse at a constant healthy weight throughout the year.

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.

 

[touchstone]

I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?

I do not believe that horses NEED to contend with the effects of Spring Grass. I never SUDDENLY expose horses to Spring grass. It should be a gradual process. I also believe that it is far worse to have sudden weight gain than keeping a horse at a constant healthy weight throughout the year.

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.

Then many vets and nutritionists would disagree with you! Interesting to note that the horses in the second article were only fed 5 -6 kg of hay rather than the 30kg you seem to feed.

 

[Baggybreeches]

Baggy, when have I ever said horses should be on oodles of lush grass? My issue is with people who allow their horses to lose condition over winter to save money. If you do not do that then why the *** are we argueing?

No, you said it was because of poor management, which can be done by people who spend a fortune of feed and still have a horse looking rough. My horse doesn't lose condition in the winter but he does 'lean up' thats because he might be hunting 1 or 2 days a week, and I increase his hard food. Most (average) people would consider him to be thin, whereas other people would call him fit. And FWIW you can see his ribs all year round because he has a massive rib cage.

 

[Natch]

18 pages and half an hour of my life I'll never get back

The misinformation around in the horse world is shocking.

If you can intensively manage your horses to be a stable good BCS all year round, then fine, good for you. Many of us struggle with horses putting on weight with the spring grass, so like our horses to come out of winter a bit leaner. I don't think anybody can reasonably justify that the natural cycle is a bad thing, as long as it isn't allowed to get to its extremes.

As for why dogs aren't managed like that, consider how controlled our dog's diets and environments are compared with horses. We feed a food source which is nutritionally stable all year around, and they are kept in a temperature controlled environment (the house, heated in winter) with an unchanging exercise routine all year around. OK so the air is colder when they go on walkies, but in general for most domestic dogs not a lot changes for a dog over the course of a year. Horses on the other hand have to contend with massive nutritional differences in grass quality, changes in management regimes, huge temperature fluctuations and seasonal exercise regime changes. And that's why some people prefer to manage their horses seasonally.

Pages ago someone cited the study done on overweight horses losing weight and the 1% of bodyweight feed required to cause it in some horses. The study is the first I know of, of its kind, and I would caution against people using that to justify feeding horses 1%, because the study was limited to studying weight loss. I can't actually find the original article (anyone fancy PMing me with it?) but having searched for it before and read the abstracts/write ups, they did not appear to examine the adequacy of things like vitamin and mineral content of the diet, or behavioural implications, or scope the horses for ulcers, and I could probably find you some more limitations if I had the time (doing a bit of a rush job posting now!). As far as I can understand it, the study looked at food intake ONLY as a means of weight loss, and will be a springboard for future studies into those things I have just listed, no doubt. So please don't consider this the new gospel quite yet

 

[Wagtail]

I didn't realise we were talking about animals in starvation mode either (which totally changes things), as I said, the goal posts are changing constantly! I think there is a huge difference between owners allowing their horses to drop weight over winter and allowing their horses to starve. If we are talking starvation then that should have been made clear from the start and would have changed the results of the poll completely, as would mentioning horses dropping weight because the owners are too tight to feed their horses properly. The poll is completely pointless as it is obviously worded incorrectly and has misled people as to what the actual question refers to!

The poll shows that around 40% of people believe that it is not poor management to let their horses drop weight in the winter. Around 60% believe, as I do that it IS usually bad management although there are exceptions. This bad management may in some circumstances be due to not wanting to pay for the extra hay and haylage required, or not being able to afford it. The rest is due to a difference of opinion. Obviously, the 40% who support your view will believe that maintaining a horse's weight during winter is wrong and therefore bad management.

At the end of the day, with the exception of people who will not or cannot afford to care properly for their horses, and the occasional horse that is impossible to keep weight on, it is down to a difference of opinion.

 

[siennamum]

I think there are few horse owners who don't try to do things as naturally as possible. Increasingly we seem to avoid shoeing unneccesarily, avoid stabling as much as possible and provide more forage and less straights. Things have changed a lot in the last few years IMO. People would once have managed ponies like this to cut costs and are now increasingly managing competition horses more naturally because it is better for them.

You are also doing things to keep the horse in the best 'natural' way Wagtail. You feed litle & often, you feed more forage, you don't feed animal products. How is letting the horses metabolism speed up in the Winter because you leave them in the field more eating hay not just a part of that.

I think the danger of Spring grass is when you suddenly turn out on to it. My preference is that horse is on the same pasture and so there is no sudden change. Because they are a bit leaner, I can see their weight increase and that is what warns me the grass is coming through (amongst other things).

So you have agreed that letting horses fluctuate is in fact not BAD management presumably. In fact it seems from many of the posts on here from highly knowledgeable people that it may be something you should consider, rather than your rather unnatural current routine.

 

[Wagtail]

No, you said it was because of poor management, which can be done by people who spend a fortune of feed and still have a horse looking rough. My horse doesn't lose condition in the winter but he does 'lean up' thats because he might be hunting 1 or 2 days a week, and I increase his hard food. Most (average) people would consider him to be thin, whereas other people would call him fit. And FWIW you can see his ribs all year round because he has a massive rib cage.

Nope, I still cannot see why we appear to have an argument. But sometimes people are just determined to. Sounds like you keep your horses pretty much as I would. And FWIW you can always see one of my mare's ribs too, for the same reason! But her bottom always has a dip in the top. That would give her a score of being overweight. She is not. It is all muscle. It's the way she is built.

 

[Natch]

I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?

Yes because god forbid people customise a regime for their horses taking the best/most suitable/most logical bits from each school of thought in order to balance their horse's and the owner/rider's needs .

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.

So do or don't you have a problem with those joe average people who allow their horses to drop a bit of weight in winter but rug and shoe their horses?

What about those people who have to put up with the changes in grass at the rate that our British summer demands it? Not everybody can intensively manage their horses as you seem to be able to do. And not everybody wishes to... quite justifiably so in my opinion. Are these the people who you deem their horse management is at fault? Should they not be allowed horses unless they can intensively manage them?

 

[siennamum]

How can you intensively manage a yard of competition horses anyway, when you spend your life on an internet forum.

I can sit on here all day if I like cause mine are all in the field shovelling grass down their necks in anticipation of me starving them all winter......

 

[Wagtail]

I think there are few horse owners who don't try to do things as naturally as possible. Increasingly we seem to avoid shoeing unneccesarily, avoid stabling as much as possible and provide more forage and less straights. Things have changed a lot in the last few years IMO. People would once have managed ponies like this to cut costs and are now increasingly managing competition horses more naturally because it is better for them.

You are also doing things to keep the horse in the best 'natural' way Wagtail. You feed litle & often, you feed more forage, you don't feed animal products. How is letting the horses metabolism speed up in the Winter because you leave them in the field more eating hay not just a part of that.

I think the danger of Spring grass is when you suddenly turn out on to it. My preference is that horse is on the same pasture and so there is no sudden change. Because they are a bit leaner, I can see their weight increase and that is what warns me the grass is coming through (amongst other things).

So you have agreed that letting horses fluctuate is in fact not BAD management presumably. In fact it seems from many of the posts on here from highly knowledgeable people that it may be something you should consider, rather than your rather unnatural current routine.

I have nothing against keeping horses as naturally as possible, except that I believe we should keep the weight on them in winter, because we CAN and I believe it is not good for any animal to have vast fluctuations in weight. Besides, if I did let my horses or my liveries lose an ounce of condition over winter they would wonder what on earth they were paying me for. There would be an outcry! If you pay someone to look after your horse and pay for full livery, then you do not expect them to lose condition when you are paying for them to be fed!

My sister keeps her horses unrugged, unshod, and practically no hard feed. She has 10 acres of good grazing and far too much grass for 2 horses and a native pony. Somehow she manages to maintain their weight throuhout the year. They are not too fat in summer, or too thin in winter. So it CAN be done naturally.

 

[AmyMay]

How can you intensively manage a yard of competition horses anyway, when you spend your life on an internet forum.

I can sit on here all day if I like cause mine are all in the field shovelling grass down their necks in anticipation of me starving them all winter......

Touche!!!!

Fin de Jeu

 

[rhino]

I will be brave (or foolish) and put up a couple of pics of my boy, taken about March/April IIRC. Bear in mind he is in his 20s and had been out of work for several months (damn the Scottish weather!)

Had he lost weight over the winter? Yes.
Has he now put some back on? Yes.
Am I happy with that? Yes.


Oops, massive pics, sorry!