how do you get a horse into an outline???

[Four Seasons]

Hahaha, that explains it then!

 

[Amaranta]

Ok guys, oodles of advice needed here.

I retrained my previous hunter into a dressage superstar with no problems, however with my current pony I am hitting a few snags.
My previous horse had a naturally low head carriage and had a laid back (but explosive) attitude so he was fairly easy to retrain and it all went very smoothly.

However my current pony is the complete opposite, he has a very high head carriage and a very stressful/fiery/forward going nature so I am having great difficulty getting him to go 'long and low'.

I have started to make a bit of headway, this is about as long and low as I can get him at the minute and you have no idea how proud I am of him for doing this!

This took an unbelievable amount of hard work, believe it or not!

However, my main question is:

How can you get a horse who has a *very* high head carriage and sharp nature to work into a contact?

Sandy either wants to throw his head up and go like a typical BSJA pony or he will drop his poll into a fake outline where all of the bend is in his poll and he drops behind the vertical.

So, any idea's?

Believe it or not it is far easier to get a horse to come down than it is to get a downhill one up!

I had one just the same as yours, I literally spent weeks and weeks, long and low, starting in walk and not moving on until she was happy in that shape, lunging in a pessoa also helps (keep it short to begin with and never more than 15/20 mins), it takes time though with a horse like this and you must be prepared to be patient - do not be tempted to 'hold' him down there, concentrate more on the forward and then 'ask' for him to come down - remember that his muscles need retraining and he may not be able to sustain it for long periods.

You, yourself are quite tense through your back and are hollowing, your horse will mirror you, try to relax more through your own frame and this will really help him.

 

[Four Seasons]

Completely agree with Amaranta. Pessoa could help build the correct muscles, making it easier for you when riding.

 

[LollyDolly]

Believe it or not it is far easier to get a horse to come down than it is to get a downhill one up!

I don't deny that, a downhill horse is built to have all of it's weight on the forehand so therefore it is very hard to get them to work correctly.
Luckily enough my previous horse wasn't downhill, he just had a lovely lower set neck so he was much easier to work with. I was so lucky!

Hmm, I will have to steal my friends pessoa and give it a go, I am in no rush to get him 'perfect' however I just want to make sure that I am doing everything correctly for him!

Thanks for the advice, I really do appreciate it as I could use all of the advice that I can get!!

 

[FestiveG]

Agree with Amaranta, I have a very forward going mare, who was ewe necked when we got her. Spent many hours doing transitions within the pace, between the paces and not moving out of trot until the neck was the right way up. One of the best schooling exercises is the walk for five, trot for five, sitting trot for five, rising trot for five, back to walk for five. You really best with someone on the ground calling the fives for you. The other good trick is to have a much less forward going hacking companion, the forward going one has to learn to adjust

 

[mandwhy]

This thread is epic, and lots of food for thought for when I am back in the saddle

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

My excuse for tipping forward - I ride Shetlands thus need to kind of look smaller than I really am. And I also work ride racehorses so am up and over anywho :-D

Basically I need a kick up the bum and a broom handle up my back - any volunteers?!?

 

[FfionWinnie]

This thread is epic, and lots of food for thought for when I am back in the saddle

I agree it is the best one I have read on here. Thanks to the main experts posting. It is very good of you to the CC but also thanks to the posters who have put photos on to be CCd as well.

I got my oh to vid me schooling the pony last night and I have noticed a lot already.

Lolly dolly I have similar problems with my welsh c x d. She wants to prance with her knees up to her nose and her head in a giraffe position.

I am following the tips on here and if she improves I might put the vids up

 

[Wagtail]

Oh dear I appear to be able to fit tack correctly...awkward though I wouldnt expect much less from producing horses properly for 8 years and doing this to make money! Also if I was wrong most professionals around me are also wrong

Isn't it great when this happens. Before people critisise they should be sure of their facts!

However, on a more serious note. I am very concerned that you use the same saddle on all of your horses. I thought that practice went out 30 years ago. I am not having a nit pick about tack, it's up to you what tack you use, but to not ensure a saddle is the right fit on every horse, is dreadful practice.

 

[Wagtail]

Rhino commented earlier on these, but nobody else did.......any more comments will happily be received.

So - faults are.....perching on this one - need to sit up more and allow the forwards movement? (horse is dead now, so I won't be able to improve him sorry!)

Looking down - need to look up to allow the front end to lift? (horse 6 days out of racing here)

And need to smile and stop glaring at photographer?

Thank you!!

HH your horse is fab. I really like him. The only photo I have issue with is the first. Despite being in a pretty outline he is not through and working over his back, and consequently not tracking up. However, as he is only 6 days out of racing, I would day he is doing pretty damn well. You ride very nicely. Just remember to relax those shoulders and lift that chin.

 

[Wagtail]

Ok guys, oodles of advice needed here.

I retrained my previous hunter into a dressage superstar with no problems, however with my current pony I am hitting a few snags.
My previous horse had a naturally low head carriage and had a laid back (but explosive) attitude so he was fairly easy to retrain and it all went very smoothly.

However my current pony is the complete opposite, he has a very high head carriage and a very stressful/fiery/forward going nature so I am having great difficulty getting him to go 'long and low'.

I have started to make a bit of headway, this is about as long and low as I can get him at the minute and you have no idea how proud I am of him for doing this!

This took an unbelievable amount of hard work, believe it or not!

However, my main question is:

How can you get a horse who has a *very* high head carriage and sharp nature to work into a contact?

Sandy either wants to throw his head up and go like a typical BSJA pony or he will drop his poll into a fake outline where all of the bend is in his poll and he drops behind the vertical.

So, any idea's?

Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!

That aside, you are much too stiff in your back, and hollow. You need to stretch your spine upwards rather than bending it hollow. There seems to be a lot of tension in your neck, shoulders and arms. You are fixing your hands downwards so that you have a broken axis from elbow to bit. The saddle is tipping you back into an 'armchair' position. You have a good leg position which would be improved by a well balanced saddle.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Wagtail (cant quote on phone) I do make sure my saddle fits well before use and normally use a prolite pad under. My saddle is memory foam and desinged to fit more than one horse as long as they are a similar shape my saddle slips back on my mare because of her shape and i was advised to use a breast plate as they think any saddle would slip on her to a degree

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Also just read furter back. I know what the martingale and that is for. Id rather not give my horses an excuse to take steps back. Sometimes horses do what they do and needs correcting. You can come see him and you will see he is a lovely horse going great for his age. He is always complimented

 

[FfionWinnie]

Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!

That aside, you are much too stiff in your back, and hollow. You need to stretch your spine upwards rather than bending it hollow. There seems to be a lot of tension in your neck, shoulders and arms. You are fixing your hands downwards so that you have a broken axis from elbow to bit. The saddle is tipping you back into an 'armchair' position. You have a good leg position which would be improved by a well balanced saddle.

A good saddle fitter could help with this. I have a 17.5 inch saddle on a 13.2 welsh c x d and it fits us both. My legs are still too long tho

 

[TigerTail]

Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!

I was just sat here with my cup of tea trying to work out how on earth to put this The saddle will be massively contributing if not causing the high head carriage. All your weight is on the back of the saddle, under which there is a reflex point which you are annihilating His head will be going up in an attempt to hollow his back and give that reflex point some relief.

I think the best solution here would be a Heather Moffett soft treed saddle in a 17'' as these come up slightly at the back providing the rider is not shoved on to her pockets in a chair seat like you are in the pic shown but Im not even 100% sure that would be ok with with this combo

Lose the flash, they are pointless things, a horse cannot relax at the poll if his jaw is strapped shut and therefore tense. In halt try squeezing and releasing the reins gently, it may take a while but eventually you should feel a little give as he relaxes his jaw and drops his head slightly, at this point ask him to walk forwards, if the head comes up bring back to halt and try again. However this isnt going to work with the weight all on the back of an ill fitting saddle

BM Im not going to reply to you anymore, sorry if thats rude but I literally cannot bear to think about your reasons (uneducated ones at that), for using tack when you dont really know what its for and obviously have no interest in fixing the problem so you dont need the gadgets.

 

[bex1984]

Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing.

He's currently on loan to a RS

 

[sakura]

Agree with what Rhino has said. However, the single biggest problem is your arms. You are fixing your hands ridgedly downwards. Yo need to relax your shoulders and hang your elbows by your waist and bend them. Lovely horse!

Thank you! I'm really going to focus on my arms!

 

[Wagtail]

Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing.

He's currently on loan to a RS

Well, for a novice rider you are doing really well! Your pony is really moving forward, which is half the battle. In the first pic he is not working through and is tense at the withers, bringing him into a false outline. His unhappiness shows in his face 'I am finding this really hard!'. By unhappiness, I don't mean discomfort, just mild annoyance at being asked to work properly. The second picture shows a lovely hind leg action and tells of really good things to come. Not sure what you are doing with your hands there. He is very much on the forehand so perhaps you are attemting to lift him up? It also appears that you are bouncing somewhat in canter. You need a stronger lower leg position and more flexible pelvis action to absorb the movement at this gait. Plenty of half halts (executed in the moment of suspension) coupled with a strong leg and sitting tall are the key to getting him off the forehand in canter. But he will need the right muscles to be able to do this first. By the last picture, he is working more through his back and really using his hind legs. He is still slightly on the fore hand but much much better. You look like you have a good position and good communication through your hands. You maintain a nice straight line from elbow to bit (except in the canter pic!). Well done.

 

[bex1984]

Thank you The pics are a bit old as I've had nearly a year off riding due to having a baby which is why he's out on loan. I still get to ride him a few times a month but as he works in the school a lot I'm not asking anything of him in terms of working properly at the mo.

He's often very lazy and backwards-thinking so takes a lot of leg so my legs do tend to be all over the place as I'm working so hard! I'm not sure what I'm doing in that canter pic but I think he took me by surprise by going forward, and yes, I think I am trying to lift him a little. It took me ages to teach him that canter is a forwards pace, not an amble/attempt to dig to australia with his forelegs! We've also had major issues with cantering on the wrong lead. I did a lot of work on his jumping which seemed to pick up his canter a bit.

I really only wanted to get him working properly because of the people who told me a pony like him could never work in an outline - to me he is SuperPony who is capable of anything

Ironically, he's having such a whale of a time being a riding school pony (he only has kids on him, he loves kids and they do all sorts of things, jumping, mounted games etc) that he has become quite forward going!!

 

[JFTDWS]

Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing.

Absolute rot! I'd be more likely to let you on one of mine on the strength of these photos than some of the "more experienced" riders on this thread!

I think you're leaning back a little and collapsing through your back in the trot photos to help you absorb the movement - rather than sitting up like a classical master, and as Wagtail says, your hands in the canter photo are odd and raised (he is on the forehand). You're also gripping with your lower leg/knee in canter, which is drawing your lower leg back and your heel up (I do this sometimes, very frustrating!). However, there is a great deal to like about the picture and your pony is gorgeous

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

You ride lovely for a novice

 

[PaddyMonty]

Absolute rot! I'd be more likely to let you on one of mine on the strength of these photos than some of the "more experienced" riders on this thread!

Right, thats it! You're crossed off my visitor list next time I'm in east angular

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Indeed she has a lovely position. I blame mine on the scoliosis and the fact I showjump. We have our own "style" nice horse too!

 

[JFTDWS]

Right, thats it! You're crossed off my visitor list next time I'm in east angular

I didn't mean you, you're always welcome to come and ride anything round mine

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Haha good job im not coming your way anyway then JFTD

 

[JFTDWS]

Haha good job im not coming your way anyway then JFTD

The "open season" offer is only for men with nice arses in jodhs. I don't throw myself at unsuspecting women

 

[PolarSkye]

Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing.

He's currently on loan to a RS

No help with critique I'm afraid but he is very, very beautiful. Reminds me very much of our old share mare - Nelly.

P

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Haha I meant more about the experienced riders not into throwing myself at women either. Ps I love your horses are they highlands?

 

[JFTDWS]

Haha I meant more about the experienced riders not into throwing myself at women either. Ps I love your horses are they highlands?

lol you weren't top of my list when I wrote that comment either They are indeed highlands, they're more likely to go under the sort of jumps yours would go over though

 

[JFTDWS]

P

smiley smiley, what a cute pic