how do you get a horse into an outline???

[Kokopelli]

No, very hard to go "too low", but it is not "attached", i.e. the horse is not in contact with the reins, and if you look his steps are not attached either....not stepping through 'cos there is no connection. Push more forwards perhaps?

The reins are supposed to be very loose. I do see what you mean about stepping through, when I lunge I like him to go slow so he doesn't rush which he often does but I suppose I haven't been keeping the impulsion going so need to work on that, thank you

 

[Four Seasons]

I'm just gonna join in here. Kokopelli, your horse isn't connecting from back to front. The hindleg isn't exactly the same as the front, he is pushing, not carrying. Long and low here is an easy peasy game for him. As all he has to do is lower his head and push, so he's not working through his body. He is not raising his back and training his abdominal muscles. To get these working, there should be a connection from back to front. Pessoa is one way to make a horse work through and raise his back. Or if I'm saying this correctly, double lunging reins.

 

[Kokopelli]

I'm just gonna join in here. Kokopelli, your horse isn't connecting from back to front. The hindleg isn't exactly the same as the front, he is pushing, not carrying. Long and low here is an easy peasy game for him. As all he has to do is lower his head and push, so he's not working through his body. He is not raising his back and training his abdominal muscles. To get these working, there should be a connection from back to front. Pessoa is one way to make a horse work through and raise his back. Or if I'm saying this correctly, double lunging reins.

I see what you mean, he is a smart chap so can make anything easier by looking like he's working when he's really not. I should add he isn't like this under saddle, have got a photo a few pages back. Not a big fan of pessoa although I've got one I've found them to lean badly. Will give double reins a go, they're the only thing that work with my tb so not sure why I haven't really tried them on him. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Four Seasons]

I see what you mean, he is a smart chap so can make anything easier by looking like he's working when he's really not. I should add he isn't like this under saddle, have got a photo a few pages back. Not a big fan of pessoa although I've got one I've found them to lean badly. Will give double reins a go, they're the only thing that work with my tb so not sure why I haven't really tried them on him. Thanks for your reply.

Ah, smartypants horse, got one here too.

Tried to look up your pic, got to page 29, but then got sick of scrolling every page. Do you know which page it's on?

It depends on the horse with the pessoa. Some can lean, some like to crawl behind the bit, some work amazing.

 

[rowy]

This thread has been great I too, am someone whose hands tend to stick to the saddle so today, in my lesson, I worked hard on lifting my hands and my boy went so much better in the contact! Most definitely have to remember to carry my hands and look up

 

[Kokopelli]

It's on page 18 so quite a while away, I'll probably try in the pessoa and see how he takes it will play it by year with him

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

BadgerMyers, you appear to be getting very defensive and i don't want to join in, BUT that's an awful lot of corrective equipment on a supposedly "blank canvas" just-backed young horse? If you really "need" all that then there is something very wrong with the basic training. Martingale is to stop the horse going above the bit: why is he above the bit? Breastplace is to stop thye saddle slipping back: why doesn't the saddle fit? Rubber bit guards are to stop the bit rubbing the horse's mouth; why doesn't the bit fit? Do you now understand why all the questions?

I always wear bit rings on young horses, I find it helps turning (personal thing). I use the same saddle on everyhorse and the same breast plate, so thats why thats on and I always wear a martingale required or not.

I have explained the grackle. I didnt do the ground work with him. I imported him as being sat on once and went from there. I think he is coming on nicely for a young horse.


I understand the questions and have answered them all

 

[Four Seasons]

It's on page 18 so quite a while away, I'll probably try in the pessoa and see how he takes it will play it by year with him

Ah, just saw them. They look good, more carriage there and raising his back. Still pushing a tiny bit, but that will probably be sorted with training and time.

 

[Four Seasons]

This is one of me & my 6 year old. When I bought her she was as green as grass. Been training properly for 4 months now, with some holidays of a week in between. As she is quite short, she finds carrying weight behind quite easy. My seat needs to be worked on though, but she isn't the easiest to sit on. CC more than welcome!

 

[Mince Pie]

Can I join in too? Please excuse the picture quality! I was jumping which is why my stirrups are so short

 

[Holly Hocks]

Rhino commented earlier on these, but nobody else did.......any more comments will happily be received.

So - faults are.....perching on this one - need to sit up more and allow the forwards movement? (horse is dead now, so I won't be able to improve him sorry!)

Looking down - need to look up to allow the front end to lift? (horse 6 days out of racing here)

And need to smile and stop glaring at photographer?

Thank you!!

 

[TigerTail]

I have been producing horses for years so know a small amount. I dont understand the issue with my tack tbh, my horse is happy and working well. It works for me and him and doesnt effect anyone else?

The breastplate stops my saddle slipping and has a martingale? Not sure that its going to affect his way of going?

As for ground work I dont really feel like running behind him as he only really does it in a working trot or canter, normally when excited! The rest of the time he is crossed but doesnt hinder work.

Hi BM - sorry went out for dinner and only just catching up on this thread!

I realise you have been producing horses for several years, but experience doesnt always mean the correct knowledge The very fact that you keep asking why certain pieces of tack would affect his way of going implies that you need to do a lot of research into each piece of tack on its design and intention, and dont just read the manufacturers blurb!

A martingale is to keep the horses head within a certain range. Therefore it effects how he carries his head. As a baby he needs to be allowed to find those boundaries himself - as and when he has the muscular strength to do so. Dont forget there is 8-? stone of you on top of him, this isnt natural for a horse! They dont magically work out how to carry an extra load and develop the extra muscle overnight. As I said before its creating an artificial way of going for the horse.

A grackle as you know is designed to stop the horse opening its mouth and crossing its jaw. However there are always REASONS why the horse does this. Once all the health ones have been crossed out by a vet and or EDT you need to go back to basics. For me this would be on the ground in a simple snaffle or mullen mouth with a bridle with no noseband. Id have reins attached and squeeze and release one rein, as soon as the horse looked or shifted its weight to that direction id let the rein go and reward with a scratch. Id do the same the other side. Id ask it to walk on then halt by turning by body in, exhaling and squeezing both reins, being sure to release as soon as he stopped. Once i can turn stop yield the forehand and quarters on the ground id progress to flexions on board, and then the same exercises id done on the ground.

If your horse requires a grackle steps in his education have been missed and should for the good of the horse be corrected.

I am exceedingly concerned you use the same saddle for all horses, despite the fact you acknowledge it doesnt fit as you know it slips. Have you ever seen a horse do a belly lift? If you have you know their backs can move upwards a good 3-4 inches - how you can contemplate putting a rigid saddle on that back is beyond me to be honest

 

[Four Seasons]

Ok, here it goes.

@ Holly Hocks
You do the same as I did. Not letting your body follow the movement of the horse. Hands forward! Thats the best trick out there, once you put your hands forward, your body will relax and you will automatically let your body follow the movement.

@ BBH
Can't really see it properly, but your horse is pushing his weight, not carrying it and is very much on the forehand. Cobs find this harder, but with plenty of transitions, tempi changes etc. and a lot of patience, he will learn to use his body as a whole and start to carry more weight behind, therefor reducing the chance for injuries or difficulties when riding.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Ok, here it goes.

@ Holly Hocks
You do the same as I did. Not letting your body follow the movement of the horse. Hands forward! Thats the best trick out there, once you put your hands forward, your body will relax and you will automatically let your body follow the movement.

QUOTE]

Thanks - that is EXACTLY what the instructor I used to have told me all the time - I've not had lessons for a while as the horse has been out of work for some time and the schooling is just restarting again - but hopefully I'll start some lessons once her fitness has built up. My other fault which won't be clear on the photos is that I find it hard to keep my hands still...and I look down - all the time!!

 

[Four Seasons]

Haha, when you have a good lookin' horse, you've just gotta look at it all the time, I do too. I am slowly getting out of it by looking between the ears, instead of neck/head. So I still can look at my pretty ponies, but at the same time sort of looking up.

And keeping your hands still... what do you do exactly?

 

[JFTDWS]

Four seasons, what exactly do you mean "pushing himself along" rather than "carrying his weight" - do you mean pulling himself along on the forehand rather than transferring his weight back onto his hocks, or something else?

Am I being dim?

 

[Holly Hocks]

Haha, when you have a good lookin' horse, you've just gotta look at it all the time, I do too. I am slowly getting out of it by looking between the ears, instead of neck/head. So I still can look at my pretty ponies, but at the same time sort of looking up.

And keeping your hands still... what do you do exactly?

Well they just move all the time - I have a very active right hand which just snatches intermittently. My instructor made me ride with a lead rein round the horses neck at one time to stop me doing it - and it worked really well - but I fear I may have started doing it again. It's as if my hands won't work independently from my body. At least I am aware of it, but it's a hard habit to break!

 

[TigerTail]

Ok, here it goes.

@ Holly Hocks
You do the same as I did. Not letting your body follow the movement of the horse. Hands forward! Thats the best trick out there, once you put your hands forward, your body will relax and you will automatically let your body follow the movement.

WHAT?! So sorry but putting your hands forward has absolutly nothing to do with absorbing the movement of the horse. All its going to do is tip you on to your fork, encourage your lower leg to swing back and destabilise your seat. This may give the illusion of 'going with the movement' (we should have a whole new thread on how people think they go about doing that ) but its actually not doing a damn thing.

HollyHocks you have a lovely stable leg, your foot (the one i can see!) points forwards which is so rare to see
You tend towards sitting on your fork from those pics and are then compensating by having your shoulders rammed backwards. Its diff without video but I think you are allowing him to lean on the bit and pull the reins through your fingers, the last pic reins have got far too long and his nose is BTV as you are holding him there with your hands. Your elbows are wanting to come forwards and away from your ribs and your hands are too low. If he is leaning on you then try lifting your hands a little then taking them back to neutral as soon as he stops leaning, he will soon get the idea of where to be. I thnk you would benefit from walking around before you do anything else with no stirrups, swinging your legs in time to the walk from the hip, not the knee, and allowing yourself to find a 3 point seat rather than being on your fork

EDIT - if you have active hands you need to work on getting them independent from your seat, which means lunge lessons with no reins in all gaits and an instructor who knows what to look for in hands and how to correct them

 

[Holly Hocks]

WHAT?! So sorry but putting your hands forward has absolutly nothing to do with absorbing the movement of the horse. All its going to do is tip you on to your fork, encourage your lower leg to swing back and destabilise your seat. This may give the illusion of 'going with the movement' (we should have a whole new thread on how people think they go about doing that ) but its actually not doing a damn thing.

HollyHocks you have a lovely stable leg, your foot (the one i can see!) points forwards which is so rare to see
You tend towards sitting on your fork from those pics and are then compensating by having your shoulders rammed backwards. Its diff without video but I think you are allowing him to lean on the bit and pull the reins through your fingers, the last pic reins have got far too long and his nose is BTV as you are holding him there with your hands. Your elbows are wanting to come forwards and away from your ribs and your hands are too low. If he is leaning on you then try lifting your hands a little then taking them back to neutral as soon as he stops leaning, he will soon get the idea of where to be. I thnk you would benefit from walking around before you do anything else with no stirrups, swinging your legs in time to the walk from the hip, not the knee, and allowing yourself to find a 3 point seat rather than being on your fork

EDIT - if you have active hands you need to work on getting them independent from your seat, which means lunge lessons with no reins in all gaits and an instructor who knows what to look for in hands and how to correct them

Thank you - unfortunatley my last instructor who taught classical and really helped me doesn't teach any more (fancy having a baby and giving up teaching!! ) so I'm going to be on the hunt for a new instructor once horse is fully back in action. I don't mind a lunge lesson without reins..... a lunge lesson without stirrups would be another matter!!

 

[Mince Pie]

I think what she means is that he is pushing himself forwards and down and not creating lift?

Here's another one, I know my reins are too long and I, as TigerTail puts it, have a habit of "saddle shagging" The idea was to not really touch him mouth but just concentrate on getting him forward, he offered me this so my hands came back and I tilted forwards.

I am sorry for quality of pictures but I've had to take photos of my TV!

 

[Four Seasons]

@ TigerTail
Yes it has. If you keep your hands close to your body, thus tensing up your arms, thus tensing up your shoulders and so on, simply putting your hands forwards does help. It makes you relax more through your arms, shoulder and back, giving you the opportunity to find your balance plus how to move with the horse. I used to do it all the time and now after getting into the habit of not keep my hands close to me all the time, I can sit up straight, relax and balance properly on my horse, going with the movement in every gait.

@ Holly Hocks
Have you tried the tennis/stressball trick? Try strengthening up you weakest hands by squeezing a tennisball alot, that really helped me from snatching at the reins with my strongest hand and evened out the contact more.

@ JTFD
By carrying his weight I mean exactly what you say. You can see it when the diagonal is not the same (both diagonal legs on the ground, got to be more or less the same).

 

[Mince Pie]

Four seasons just realised that the angles of my trot photo are all wrong (was trotting past the camcorder at an angle, then the picture I took of the TV is also on an angle!), here is better pic

 

[TigerTail]

@ TigerTail
Yes it has. If you keep your hands close to your body, thus tensing up your arms, thus tensing up your shoulders and so on, simply putting your hands forwards does help. It makes you relax more through your arms, shoulder and back, giving you the opportunity to find your balance plus how to move with the horse. I used to do it all the time and now after getting into the habit of not keep my hands close to me all the time, I can sit up straight, relax and balance properly on my horse, going with the movement in every gait.

Ooook if you stand up and are entirely relaxed where do your arms fall? Do they hang by your sides or do they stick straight out in front of you? If they stick straight out in front of you then I bow to you and indeed your arms are in a relaxed position stuck out in front of you..... If however they drop my your sides and hang loosely your shoulders should be relaxed. If you lift your forearms like you are carrying a tray it should primarily be your elbow and foreams involved, not your shoulders and back (obv they are involved but not to the point they are under so much strain as to be tense) if you take your arms forward and back you are doing Wagtails pet hate of fluctuating the rein contact, confusing the horses and messing up any outline you are hoping to create.

Broke But Happy if you do indeed saddle sh@g, looking at your position in general I would guess your saddle, and most importantly stirrup bar position, are contributing. If the horse not leaning on your hands and beginning to carry himself caused your upper body to tip forwards your hands are not independent of your seat and you too need to join the reinless lunge club

 

[Four Seasons]

Thats a better pic! The diagonals look much better there, more or less the same! Your inside hand is the closest towards you and flat, in a weird position too, haha. It your inside hand the strongest?

@ TigerTail
When I mean put your hands forward, I don't mean 20 cm forward, just a few cms make the difference. I don't quite understand how your bringing this.... or how you mean it.... it's late here in Holland.

And most people who keep their hands close to themselves, are trying to balance their weight on the reins. By putting your hands (forearm, whatever it is) a tiny bit forward, you can't support yourself anymore, unless you are sitting on your thighs.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

............. in my lesson, I worked hard on lifting my hands and my boy went so much better in the contact! Most definitely have to remember to carry my hands and look up

You and the vast majority of the riders on this thread, particularly (as far as I can tell) the younger ones. I'm beginning to think that there must have been a phase of teaching this position as correct.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

WHAT?! So sorry but putting your hands forward has absolutly nothing to do with absorbing the movement of the horse. All its going to do is tip you on to your fork, encourage your lower leg to swing back and destabilise your seat. This may give the illusion of 'going with the movement' (we should have a whole new thread on how people think they go about doing that ) but its actually not doing a damn thing.

)

I tell you I'm convinced that there must have been a phase of teaching a tilted seat, probably 10-20 yrs ago, judging by the ages of most of the riders tipping forward.
God knows why or what it was supposed to achieve.

 

[LollyDolly]

Ok guys, oodles of advice needed here.

I retrained my previous hunter into a dressage superstar with no problems, however with my current pony I am hitting a few snags.
My previous horse had a naturally low head carriage and had a laid back (but explosive) attitude so he was fairly easy to retrain and it all went very smoothly.

However my current pony is the complete opposite, he has a very high head carriage and a very stressful/fiery/forward going nature so I am having great difficulty getting him to go 'long and low'.

I have started to make a bit of headway, this is about as long and low as I can get him at the minute and you have no idea how proud I am of him for doing this!

This took an unbelievable amount of hard work, believe it or not!

However, my main question is:

How can you get a horse who has a *very* high head carriage and sharp nature to work into a contact?

Sandy either wants to throw his head up and go like a typical BSJA pony or he will drop his poll into a fake outline where all of the bend is in his poll and he drops behind the vertical.

So, any idea's?

 

[Amaranta]

Not sure I would describe them as tractor hands


What about this one ??

Perhaps tractor hands is a little harsh but I do agree that the horse is not showing long and low but is rather leaning on the reins to escape the hands. The fact that the rider is tipping forward has exacerbated the problem and forced the horse onto his forehand.

For a horse to benefit from long and low he needs to stretch down into (not pull against) the contact, raising his back and consequently, over time, strengthening his back muscles which will help him come through and offer an outline.

This picture is actually worse than the first as the horse has hollowed through the back and shortened his whole frame - again in an effort to escape the contact. From the muscle development of this horse I suspect he has not yet accepted the contact - he has very little topline (especially for a PRE) and no muscle behind, which would indicate that he is not going forward properly but rather is 'running' along. I suspect the muscles along his back are also underdeveloped.

In none of the pictures is the horse accepting the contact properly and until he is going forward truly, he never will.

 

[Four Seasons]

I tell you I'm convinced that there must have been a phase of teaching a tilted seat, probably 10-20 yrs ago, judging by the ages of most of the riders tipping forward.
God knows why or what it was supposed to achieve.

I was never taught to sit tilted, but to sit up straight, with the shoulder, hip, heel line. 6 months ago I started to ride my young one and sat in the lightly tilted seat to let her learn how to raise her back. But then it got worse and I really started tipping because of balance issues from my side, now getting out of the bad habit, I'm starting to sit the correct way again. Anyway, I've mostly be taught in Holland.

 

[Mince Pie]

Broke But Happy if you do indeed saddle sh@g, looking at your position in general I would guess your saddle, and most importantly stirrup bar position, are contributing. If the horse not leaning on your hands and beginning to carry himself caused your upper body to tip forwards your hands are not independent of your seat and you too need to join the reinless lunge club

I tend to do it in most saddles, I drive with my seat too much hence it just ends up saddle shagging. I am starting Pilates this week but because I look down already when my hands come back my shoulders come back as well and it's the final little thing that tips me forwards

Thats a better pic! The diagonals look much better there, more or less the same! Your inside hand is the closest towards you and flat, in a weird position too, haha. It your inside hand the strongest?

No, I was just about to give him a tap with the whip!


ETA: TigerTail I think this video shows my bad habits off nicely


This is particularly bad, even for me!