how do you get a horse into an outline???

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Show jumping. Don't you know it's the law?

haha! What a grackle and a breast plate? Breast plate = no diff to martingale

Grackle he was in work as a 3 year old and is a bugger for crossing the jaw and not turning. This was much better to me than changing the bit as like to keep bits simple at all times!

Thought this was about outlines not a tack bash? I dont see what diff it makes tbh? I ride my horse not you Feel free to come have a go though!

PS wagtail that is not at you I just liked your post

 

[iloveCharlie5]

i've been all over the internet searchin about how to get a horse into an outline, wiggling my fingers doesn't work, engaging the horses hocks doesn't work and how do i get the horses back to relax??

my main question is, how do you get a horse into an outline

thanks

personally, i've found that it's all about the impulsion from behind! If my horse is slopping about at a snail pace, there is no way on this earth that she will go into an outline... I've just started using spurs on her because she can be lazy, and i noticed a difference almost immediately after i first asked her to walk on the first time i used them... She put her head nice and low and almost into an outline without me squeezing the reins!!!
I've found it difficult in the past to get her into an outline, but previously I had a new forest pony that was a jumping pony, so it took a lot of work to encourage him to accept the bit properly and get into an outline. Someone said earlier opening your hands and placing them lower???? and someone else said that was a load of rubbish... I've got to say, opening my hands and placing them lower really did help that pony, and pretty soon he was going about in the prettiest outline WITHOUT ME BEING HEAVY HANDED, SAWING ON THE REINS OR FORCING HIM THERE... so i guess it differs with the horse you're riding...?
so... yeah... im just rambling on now, im going to stop...
Hope i helped a little!

 

[TigerTail]

The issue I have with it is that it often results in an inconsistency in the rein and therefore what looks like an irritating vibration in the horse's mouth as when I see this kind of thing the rein is usually alternating between drooping and contact. If you want to ride with a loose rein, then fine, but in schooling then please make your mind up whether you are riding western (all loose rein) or English (always with a contact unless giving the horse a loose rein as in giving and taking the rein or free walk on a long rein).

I do however, sometimes ride a well schooled horse with no reins at all, to check how tuned in they are to my leg and weight aids, But that is just part of my schooling. Seeing reins go loose and then taught is just a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid, but that is not to say I am right, it is just my opinion.

ETA I think it shows more skill in a rider if they are able to maintain a gentle contact, keeping the same pressure on the bit through all paces and at all stages in the gait than to let the reins go loose, that actually, anyone can do.

aah yes taught/slack is a diff kettle of fish, hence me saying exp horse and rider combo needed

I dont think its a case of classifying it as western or english, it should be english riding getting a lot damn better and moving away from this heavy contact idea that has crept through the BHS teachers and was so prevalent in the olys. Classical dressage, ie riding with loops in the reins because you and your horse are so damn good should be what we all strive for!

Cortez you are so right about the iberians being such a capable horse for this, as opposed to the modern BD fashion horse breeds

BM it makes a difference because those are gadgets, which mean that any outline you achieve is false. Its also overly complex for such a baby who should be taught flexions and relaxation of the jaw to accept the bit which is impossible in a grackle.

Bernster v diff without giving you a lesson! Come to yorks on hol and give me a buzz

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

aah yes taught/slack is a diff kettle of fish, hence me saying exp horse and rider combo needed

I dont think its a case of classifying it as western or english, it should be english riding getting a lot damn better and moving away from this heavy contact idea that has crept through the BHS teachers and was so prevalent in the olys. Classical dressage, ie riding with loops in the reins because you and your horse are so damn good should be what we all strive for!

Cortez you are so right about the iberians being such a capable horse for this, as opposed to the modern BD fashion horse breeds

BM it makes a difference because those are gadgets, which mean that any outline you achieve is false. Its also overly complex for such a baby who should be taught flexions and relaxation of the jaw to accept the bit which is impossible in a grackle.

Bernster v diff without giving you a lesson! Come to yorks on hol and give me a buzz

How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn?

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly.

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......

 

[PolarSkye]

OY . . . don't make me come over there and bash your heads together . . .

. . . point is, what do the confo/movement experts think of my stonkingly beautiful horse (see picture above)?

C'mon . . . some perspective here . . . what's really important here is the Kali lurve .

P

 

[TigerTail]

How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn?

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly.

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......

BM it doesnt offend me, but its not correct for classical dressage which is what I have on the brain As I said in my other post, the grackle prevents the horse being able to relax his jaw, if the jaw is rigid the dorsal muscle which connects from the poll down the back is not able to relax (need to dig my notes out if you want all the proper muscles involved) and therefore the horse cannot lift its back to properly support the rider and being to use its hind end.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

BM it doesnt offend me, but its not correct for classical dressage which is what I have on the brain As I said in my other post, the grackle prevents the horse being able to relax his jaw, if the jaw is rigid the dorsal muscle which connects from the poll down the back is not able to relax (need to dig my notes out if you want all the proper muscles involved) and therefore the horse cannot lift its back to properly support the rider and being to use its hind end.

Ah I dont do dressage I dont strap him shut but he seemed to carry his jaw naturally crossed and it was really hindering his schooling! i prefer the grackle to strong bits, as you can see my mare goes in one too! Shes a bugger though so doesnt count

 

[Farma]

How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn?

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly.

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......

Everyone was taking the cc so well on this thread and having quite good discussions, suppose it had to end some time

 

[Wagtail]

OK . . . this was taken yesterday in the warm-up arena at Fair Oak. Not me on board. He's been back in proper work for a couple of months and does varied work. He was tense in the warm-up and that probably shows, but I like that he's showing activity in the trot and he's poll high b/c going btv/overbending/going behind the bit is one of his party tricks.

How do we think he's doing?

P

Lovely horse. Yes, you are right, the tension shows. He is tight at the base of his neck by his withers and this is causing a small amount of bulge in the lower neck. He is also hollow in his back. All tension related. Although the rider has loose reins, she looks very stiff indeed which I would expect has a lot to do with why the horse's back is hollow and he is tense at the withers.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Everyone was taking the cc so well on this thread and having quite good discussions, suppose it had to end some time

this was a joke btw I am happy with the comments and explaining my choices also a little lost about gadgets

 

[PolarSkye]

Lovely horse. Yes, you are right, the tension shows. He is tight at the base of his neck by his withers and this is causing a small amount of bulge in the lower neck. He is also hollow in his back. All tension related. Although the rider has loose reins, she looks very stiff indeed which I would expect has a lot to do with why the horse's back is hollow and he is tense at the withers.

Thanks Wagtail for taking the time to comment and what you say makes much sense.

Hollow is his preferred way of going . . . it's his default setting . . . and while he is learning to "let go" at home, at his first event in three years he certainly defaulted right back to where he is comfy. To be fair to Z (rider), I think she was stiff b/c he was very, very tense . . . it was a busy warm-up ring and they were feeding off each other a little, but it's certainly worth noting. They are a relatively new partnership and she has never taken him to a competition before . . . with time, I hope she will relax more with him - she doesn't ride him like this at home.

Personally, I am happy that he was able to lift his head and not lock his jaw . . . before he came to us he was ridden in draw reins and a martingale and was very tight through the jaw/upper neck/always behind the bit as a defensive measure. To see him actually be prepared to poke his nose forward and take his poll up without fear of being winched in is huge . . . but yes, there's much improvement to be made.

Again - really appreciate your constructive comments - thank you.

P

 

[jhoward]

haha! What a grackle and a breast plate? Breast plate = no diff to martingale

Grackle he was in work as a 3 year old and is a bugger for crossing the jaw and not turning. This was much better to me than changing the bit as like to keep bits simple at all times!

Thought this was about outlines not a tack bash? I dont see what diff it makes tbh? I ride my horse not you Feel free to come have a go though!

PS wagtail that is not at you I just liked your post

How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn?

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly.

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......

bm a few things to point out.

1, if a horse is crossing its jaw and difficult to turn and its just under saddle, then its prep/ground work needs redoing

2, a breast plate and martingale are TWO different items of tack.


3, whilst harping on aiming to be proffesional, may i suggest that you learn how to tack up correctly, your breast plate in the first picture is attached in- correctly. (long straps are ment to go round your girth not onto saddle d rings)

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

bm a few things to point out.

1, if a horse is crossing its jaw and difficult to turn and its just under saddle, then its prep/ground work needs redoing

2, a breast plate and martingale are TWO different items of tack.


3, whilst harping on aiming to be proffesional, may i suggest that you learn how to tack up correctly, your breast plate in the first picture is attached in- correctly. (long straps are ment to go round your girth not onto saddle d rings)

I have no attachments on girth and have never seen one of this type go there but shall have a look!

I have been producing horses for years so know a small amount. I dont understand the issue with my tack tbh, my horse is happy and working well. It works for me and him and doesnt effect anyone else?

The breastplate stops my saddle slipping and has a martingale? Not sure that its going to affect his way of going?

As for ground work I dont really feel like running behind him as he only really does it in a working trot or canter, normally when excited! The rest of the time he is crossed but doesnt hinder work.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks Wagtail for taking the time to comment and what you say makes much sense.

Hollow is his preferred way of going . . . it's his default setting . . . and while he is learning to "let go" at home, at his first event in three years he certainly defaulted right back to where he is comfy. To be fair to Z (rider), I think she was stiff b/c he was very, very tense . . . it was a busy warm-up ring and they were feeding off each other a little, but it's certainly worth noting. They are a relatively new partnership and she has never taken him to a competition before . . . with time, I hope she will relax more with him - she doesn't ride him like this at home.

Personally, I am happy that he was able to lift his head and not lock his jaw . . . before he came to us he was ridden in draw reins and a martingale and was very tight through the jaw/upper neck/always behind the bit as a defensive measure. To see him actually be prepared to poke his nose forward and take his poll up without fear of being winched in is huge . . . but yes, there's much improvement to be made.

Again - really appreciate your constructive comments - thank you.

P

He does look like a light, responsive ride and I can imagine how he must look when he's relaxed. Having said all that, his expression in the photograph is pretty happy. I think he's enjoying himself!

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Oh dear I appear to be able to fit tack correctly...awkward though I wouldnt expect much less from producing horses properly for 8 years and doing this to make money! Also if I was wrong most professionals around me are also wrong

 

[FfionWinnie]

Be quite happy if we could keep the happy informative tone of this thread.

 

[PolarSkye]

He does look like a light, responsive ride and I can imagine how he must look when he's relaxed. Having said all that, his expression in the photograph is pretty happy. I think he's enjoying himself!

Light and responsive? Erm . . . sometimes. He's a lot like the little girl in the nursery rhyme . . . "when she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was horrid" . . . that's the Bear . . . he can be really soft and responsive at home if he's in the mood . . . but if he isn't in the mood then he's an awkward so and so.

But, yes, he does look very happy in that picture and he certainly enjoyed himself yesterday - which is what counts. We can work on the rest.

And I really appreciate your constructive crit. What, if anything, would you do to to improve his way of going if you were the rider (bearing in mind they were at a competition)?

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Be quite happy if we could keep the happy informative tone of this thread.

Yes, and me. Can we stop the bickering about tack now please?

P

 

[FfionWinnie]

Yes, and me. Can we stop the bickering about tack now please?

P

Yes.


Slopes off to remove martingale before attempting photo session

 

[Four Seasons]

Very interesting thread! Like reading all the CC

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

More than happy to stop about the tack. I asked about my horse afterall Its okay anything I post the same people have to find faults, I just wanted to show that I can fit tack incase others on here query their tack fitting skills also

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Agree with these comments. Elsazzo, sorry, I did not realise you were looking for CC as I thought you were posting in direct response to the OP regarding outline. Your horse is going forwards nicely but has become a bit 'strung out'. The contact looks very 'wooden' as though your horse is not submissive to the aids and is coming against your hand. You need to get (her?) back on her hocks by sitting up more and taking the contact back a tad. She may need a half halt here and there to get her attention and lighten her up. You already have the impulsion and the front end is almost, but not quite there.

thanks wagtail

Are you referring to the 2nd pic i put up? (the dodgy/ist one!) sorry Its been taken down as they were copyrighted and I forgot about that?!! woops!!

what did u make of the other 2- particularly the canter one if u saw it as it was a good clear picture?

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Be quite happy if we could keep the happy informative tone of this thread.

i hear that!

 

[Wagtail]

Light and responsive? Erm . . . sometimes. He's a lot like the little girl in the nursery rhyme . . . "when she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was horrid" . . . that's the Bear . . . he can be really soft and responsive at home if he's in the mood . . . but if he isn't in the mood then he's an awkward so and so.

But, yes, he does look very happy in that picture and he certainly enjoyed himself yesterday - which is what counts. We can work on the rest.

And I really appreciate your constructive crit. What, if anything, would you do to to improve his way of going if you were the rider (bearing in mind they were at a competition)?

P

Personally, if they have the space, I would lunge him. Then she could take up the contact right away as he will be warmed up. Problem is at competitions, if yo get straight on, you can't do the normal warm up on a loose rein if they are excited. You have to keep hold of them but this means they are working in an incorrect outline on a tight rein which exercises the wrong muscles.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Personally, if they have the space, I would lunge him. Then she could take up the contact right away as he will be warmed up. Problem is at competitions, if yo get straight on, you can't do the normal warm up on a loose rein if they are excited. You have to keep hold of them but this means they are working in an incorrect outline on a tight rein which exercises the wrong muscles.

Lunging is great I work mine in the pessoa a few times a week at the moment. My physio can see a massive difference in the strength on my young horse (the bay)

 

[PolarSkye]

Personally, if they have the space, I would lunge him. Then she could take up the contact right away as he will be warmed up. Problem is at competitions, if yo get straight on, you can't do the normal warm up on a loose rein if they are excited. You have to keep hold of them but this means they are working in an incorrect outline on a tight rein which exercises the wrong muscles.

Huh . . . and we took the lunge line and didn't use it . . . this is great advice, thank you .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Lunging is great I work mine in the pessoa a few times a week at the moment. My physio can see a massive difference in the strength on my young horse (the bay)

He gets lunged once a week or so at home as a matter of course . . . firm believer in it being a good way to engage brain and muscles if used correctly, but really should have engaged my own brain and lunged him at the event . . . would have been a great way to get his brain focussed and get him relaxed (my idea of lunging is not wearing horse out by hooning it round on the end of a line - I prefer to encourage the horse to stretch and use transitions within paces to get the brain thinking).

Thanks guys!

P

 

[Kokopelli]

Is this a good example of long and low or is it too low?

Really tried correcting my position as well as I could today and feeling extremely disheatened. The only work I managed to get out of him was very deep and BTV or nose poking. He was really rushy and not listening to my half halts and was slightly on the forehand which is unlike him. He was so unstraight even after trying all the tricks in my book for it I couldn't get him to work in a straight line which I think was causing the other issues. Going to hack for a week then got a lesson on friday as I don't want to keep plugging away at 'average' work when Louie can do better than that. Shame about the numpty on top.

 

[Cortez]

BadgerMyers, you appear to be getting very defensive and i don't want to join in, BUT that's an awful lot of corrective equipment on a supposedly "blank canvas" just-backed young horse? If you really "need" all that then there is something very wrong with the basic training. Martingale is to stop the horse going above the bit: why is he above the bit? Breastplace is to stop thye saddle slipping back: why doesn't the saddle fit? Rubber bit guards are to stop the bit rubbing the horse's mouth; why doesn't the bit fit? Do you now understand why all the questions?

 

[Cortez]

Is this a good example of long and low or is it too low?

Really tried correcting my position as well as I could today and feeling extremely disheatened. The only work I managed to get out of him was very deep and BTV or nose poking. He was really rushy and not listening to my half halts and was slightly on the forehand which is unlike him. He was so unstraight even after trying all the tricks in my book for it I couldn't get him to work in a straight line which I think was causing the other issues. Going to hack for a week then got a lesson on friday as I don't want to keep plugging away at 'average' work when Louie can do better than that. Shame about the numpty on top.

No, very hard to go "too low", but it is not "attached", i.e. the horse is not in contact with the reins, and if you look his steps are not attached either....not stepping through 'cos there is no connection. Push more forwards perhaps?